Just seen an advert for a litter of pups, the bitch is only CBP for CNM, no other health tests, although the EBVs seem to now be being used like one, which may well fool some people looking for a pup.  There are 1 elbow grades behind both parents (including a dog that produced quite a few poor elbow grades further back), and the EBVs for the bitch are around 50%, who would gamble like that without actually doing the health tests for goodness sakes?!  And they're asking £1,800 per pup!!

I've never seen EBVs used in adverts like this before and I see they are there for the sire as well as the dam.  At least he has had the health tests as well, but if using the EBVs is becoming another thing to list, it will mislead a lot of people into thinking the dogs have been thoroughly "tested", when, as you say, this bitch has had no testing at all.  How depressing.  And what happened to thoroughly tested stud dog owners only allowing their dogs to be used on approved bitches who have been similarly thoroughly tested?!

I'm not a breeder - just an occasional puppy buyer who tries really hard to do my homework.  It's such a minefield and using EBVs in this way seems to be yet another red herring to falsely reassure some buyers.  And yes - the price ... !

I don't know if/when I might be looking for another pup but I try to keep my eye on things so that I can be as informed as possible if that time comes    I'm grateful I'm not looking at the moment, for obvious reasons.  Instead of it being something to possibly look forward to in the future, I rather dread the thought of the searching process, which is very sad!

It's just so depressing, if it's not enough that there are so many puppy farmers out there, people bunging dogs together for the sake of it, you then get people trying to look good, when really they shouldn't have gone ahead at all with a mating where pups have the potential to develop a debilitating condition.  They are literally gambling 50/50 with the pups from this bitch, and it is a repeat mating.

Agree - I think it's really shocking to use EBVs in this way - i.e. seemingly trying to cover up the fact that no testing has actually been done.

And they have had 300 enquiries for this litter so they are now closing their list.  Aarghh !!!!!

They're also that rare shade of red fox as well, so bound to have people queuing up that haven't got a clue about health tests or pedigrees.

Yep!

It's also the 2nd litter from the same parents. They obviously had no trouble selling the pups from the first litter so have done it again! It makes a total farce of the "parents health tested" listing when the bitch is only CBP for one condition and not tested for anything else. I would like Champdogs to only list a dog/bitch as health tested if they have hips/elbows and clear eye test as a minimum

Health tested should mean just that:

All clinical tests done & unless a dog is parental DNA profiled confirmed then all DNA tests done. Parental DNA is fairly cheap & should be done by breeder prior to registration & sale.

Forgive me    but EBVs as in Estimated Breeding Values?   Dear me, the world has gone quite crazy.

Yes, indeed - madness.  When I first saw the listing I thought I must have misunderstood the EBV "information".  Sadly, I hadn't.

As a dog can have an EBV having had no health testing & no ancestral health testing, they are meaningless. I do wish it was illegal to breed from non health tested parents regardless of pedigree or lack of one.

I find incredible that people will spent £100s on health testing a male dog to use the loophole to register non pedigree dogs on the full register & then allowing it to be used( extensively)on non tested bitches(including dogs which are carriers).

Maybe the Champdogs 'health tested' bit should reflect the minimum required by the ABS?  It's still not enough as there are 5 genetic conditions that area easily tested for, and there are far too many breeders who don't do even those required by the ABS.

Well after a long night shift and having to get up early to sort dogs out, sat here twiddling my thumbs, it seems the stud dog is owned by a vet nurse, so why on earth are they allowing this dog to cover bitches with little or no health tests, granted, the majority do have health tests, but there are some with no elbow grading, no BVA eye cert and if they're so reliant on EBVs some of those are pretty poor as well.

Having now appreciated what EBV meant, and had a look at the ad, I can understand in this case, how useless it is. The stud dog also had EBV values but had been hip and elbow tested so it gave a useful insight as to how much at risk his progeny could be affected by hereditary dysplasia. But mating him to a totally untested bitch is ridiculous as it completely negates all the expensive tests undertaken by the owner of the stud. It doesn’t matter how brilliant his structural health is, mating him to an untested dog who has less then average EBV results is the height of stupidity I think. What were they thinking, oh I know, pound signs.

The EBV is useful alongside the current hip scores and elbow grades, as it gives an 'idea' of the possibility of problems using data calculated from behind that current dog, but it is certainly not in any way an indication of the state of their hips/elbows.  What it is useful for is to look at what a dog is producing with their progeny, looking at combinations of different lines and what they have been producing, and think about what might happen with a mating you're looking at, but it is not at all in any way a health test in its own right.

I looked up a bitch who comes from a line of fully health tested dogs. Hip score under median, elbows clear & all her DNA/clinical tests were normal. She somehow has a worse EBV that another bitch that has no health testing except a slightly lower hip score(1 point) the other bitch has carriers for 3 conditions(2 life limiting)

How does this happen ????

What do you mean by no health testing?  What health tests are behind the bitch that has got the slightly lower hip score?

What do you mean by no health testing?  What health tests are behind the bitch that has got the slightly lower hip score?


Absolutely none, the known carriers in her pedigree have all produced affected pups so they didn't need DNA testing( wasn't available when these dogs were alive anyway)

> Absolutely none, the known carriers in her pedigree have all produced affected pups so they didn't need DNA testing( wasn't available when these dogs were alive anyway)

But she is hip scored?  I wonder if any uncles/aunts, and information from half relatives are included?  I honestly couldn't tell you 100% how the EBV is calculated, but if it only includes the direct ancestors then it's hard to understand how that could be the case with this bitch; however if data from other relatives is included then that might be why? 

My brain isn't working 100% most of the time but it's particularly on go slow today after a night shift.


But she is hip scored?  I wonder if any uncles/aunts, and information from half relatives are included


Nope gone backwards & sidewards absolutely zilch & there are a lot of them ! I presume no testing means no effect on the EBV so set at 0 & the marginally better hip score makes her an allegedly better breeding prospect. What is even worse is the bitch has produced epilepsy in every litter(bred to max litters over 40 pups) & now they are breedibg off her totally unhealth tested daughter not even hip scored !! Awaiting the registration to go on line for the pups

Sadly not a surprise, I've seen a mating repeated that produced epileptic pups