Hi all,

This is the first time posting on here but I thought maybe someone has had a similar experience or found something that really helped them, my wife and I are struggling and don't know where to turn!

We have a yellow labrador bitch called Chips who is nearly 2. We bought her from an accredited Kennel Club breeder and thought this would have given us a level of guarantee that she would be a fit and healthy dog (we bought her as a companion for our other black lab bitch Bree, who shortly after Chips arrived was diagnosed with a brain tumour and passed away suddenly which we are still struggling to come to terms with). Shortly after we got Chips we noticed something wasn't right as she was constantly sitting down when we took her out and didn't show the levels of enthusiasm we were expecting. After numerous visits to the vets we eventually persuaded them to do an x-ray which showed that she has elbow dysplasia. On discovering this we took her to Fitzpatricks where she had both her legs operated on. This on its own is life-changing and means we can't go on the long walks we used to enjoy so much with our other dog. We are managing the situation and take her for regular physio and hydrotherapy.

As well as the elbow issue, Chips was also prone to getting a poorly stomach, which it transpires is down to allergies (at the very least some food ingredients, we think mainly meat). We have switched her food to Hills ZD which seems to agree with her but she still suffers from a poorly stomach at least once a month. She also gets regular yeast ear infections which the vet has put down to her allergies as well. We are back to the vets this week so they can sedate her and look up her nose as she has been having regular sneezing fits for the past 5 days, we think/hope there might be something up there rather than being another allergic reaction (it all started when she sniffed some freshly cut grass).

Anyway, that's a not very brief history of where we are, should we expect any help from the breeder? We don't feel like we are getting much support from the vets and don't really know the best way to manage or if there is any light at the end of the tunnel. If anyone has been through anything similar and found anything / anyone that has helped improve things I would love to hear.. We are quickly running out of money and are emotionally drained!

On a separate note, one of the things Chips does love in life is other dogs so we had been considering bringing another black lab puppy into the house but her ongoing issues make us cautious.

Thank you for reading (if you have managed to get this far)

Huw

So sorry that you are having such trouble with your new pup.  Of course any caring responsible breeder should be involved and be prepared to offer advice, if nothing else.   However, even being on the Accredited Breeder lists doesn't necessarily mean you have any guarantee - you should be a bit ahead of the game in terms of not running into Hip/Elbow problems.   IF the parents were tested!!   And buying a living being isn't like buying a bag of sugar.   I hope your pup is insured because Noel Fitz. however excellent, is not cheap!!

Best I can offer is you do what Noel advises now she is under his care.

As for any further back up from the breeder - all I can say is I bought my much missed Basset from somebody I'd known in the breed for as long, if not longer, than I've been involved and yet he was far from fit for purpose over his shortened life.   After the first set of nose to tail x-rays to find out what his lameness was about (at around 8 - 9 months) I did invite his breeder to contribute to the unexpected expense, bearing in mind I paid the going rate for him at 4 months, as a show prospect.   They sent me a small cheque which I suppose was something.   To all intents and purpose at 4 months, he was a really super-looking boy.   I believe every breeder should be made aware of problems, if only to hopefully prevent them from using the parents (or same breeding at least) again.  How involved any breeder would be, and depending on for how long the puppy has been out of their hands, is unknown.

As for buying in another puppy - if she has ongoing mobility problems I don't think having her with a boisterous puppy of a similar breed bouncing around her, at this time is a good idea.  And without doubt, now is not the time to buy any puppy with the hugely inflated prices being asked, and presumably got, by BYBs.   Good breeders have curtailed their breeding programmes of late, making demand outweigh supply so BYBs are having a field day.   But that's up to you.

Diet - well she's been through a lot and still is, so her digestive system may well be reacting to that.   If you can, stay away from cereal-based food, and something like a potato/fish diet may help.

The Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme isn't a guarantee of anything, except that the breeder has done 'some' of the health tests, which should include hips, elbows and the BVA eye certificate, and they are recommended to do the DNA test for PRA as well; that they look after their dogs and have a nice whelping area, which is only checked every so often, and they are then entitled to a discount off KC registration.  Unfortunately, as you can see from that brief description, that allows all and sundry to join and do the bare minimum, a lot of breeders have left because of this, there are known puppy farmers on there all benefiting from discounted KC registration. 

While there is no guarantee that pups won't go on to have problems with hips/elbows, good breeders would look at similar lines, check what stud dogs are producing, and what is behind the pedigree, and also now, use the estimated breeding value to see the probability of producing pups with problems.  At the end of that it's still no guarantee, but at least the breeder has done all they can to try and prevent problems. 

As for the stomach issues, I'm not sure as I don't have much experience, my girls (currently three Labradors, I lost my eldest age 14.5 earlier this year, a flat coated retriever and a foxhound) have cast iron stomachs, all are raw fed with a few home made stews thrown in, but if I run out of raw then they will eat anything else I get in for them pretty much and absolutely no problem.  There are some sources that question if allergies 'could' be linked to annual vaccinations, I don't do this with my girls, they get their vaccinations as a puppy, then the first set when they're a year old and then that's it.  I also don't use flea/tick prevention, I use natural products in their food, garlic, turmeric, fenugreek, mint and a few other bits.  If you do continue to vaccinate then I'd suggest you follow the World Small Animal Veterinary Association's guidelines, and follow the three year protocol to avoid over vaccination.  As for flea/tick prevention, a good product to use is neem oil, you can buy sprays containing this that deter parasites, and there's a product called CSJ Billy no Mates to deter all parasites, both much more natural rather than using strong chemicals regularly on your dog.

Yes, I would expect at least a level of moral support from the breeder, but then from the other side, puppy owners do ignore advice, which is also frustrating.  One of my pups from my first litter was neutered under a year of age, against my recommendation as the vet said it would calm him down.  And was also switched over to Royal Canin food again, on the recommendation of the vet.  When we had a meet up he was the worst behaved with the worst dry coat of all my pups/dogs. 

At the minute you would be hard pushed to find a good breeder with pups on the ground, I'm forever being nosy looking at litters, and have been shocked by some of the breeding going on to take advantage of the hugely inflated prices of pups currently.  The latest one, a puppy from a bitch affected for PRA, and the dog untested, and looking back through the pedigree, that puppy could go on to go blind as he has the potential to be affected status.  If you are going to look at adding a pup, then you need to get on a waiting list sooner rather than later, and do your research, make sure you like what the breeder is doing in terms of health tests, and ask them to explain why they're using that stud dog, what they hope to achieve with the pups etc.  For me, they should be doing hips and elbows, hips should be around or below the breed mean standard of 9, elbows should be 0.  Both parents should have a current clear BVA eye cert - all these schemes are now back up and running after lockdown.  And at least one parent should be tested and clear status for PRA, CNM, EIC, HNPK and SD2, if one parent is clear then none of the pups can go on to be affected.

I would run an exclusion diet for her food allergies, and I agree with the vet that her ears are most likely due to this.  I've got 3 here with food-based ear issues and I'm helping treat a dog I walk for it as well.  The exclusion diet is the most reliable way to work out exactly what she's reacting to.  For this you'd feed a novel protein (and sometimes a novel starch) for 6-8 weeks to remove the reactions, then you introduce foods one at a time, look for reactions, and rule them out as safe or identify them as triggers.  With her having an upset stomach about once a month, I'd guess there is at least one minor trigger that's having a cumulative effect, so I would only introduce new things at that frequency to allow time for an effect to show.  So say if you were testing chicken, I'd introduce a small amount of chicken daily for a month before establishing it as safe or not.  It's a slow process, but it's worth it.

What I would not do (which a lot of vets suggest) is use a hydrolyzed kibble for the safe food, because it's not guaranteed.  Any kibble has multiple ingredients, and any of them could be a trigger, potentially undermining the process.

I am sorry u are having these problems .

I have experience with two dogs with allergies one who I have now lost. Not allergy related he was 11 and had cancer the other we still have and is being treated successfully for her allergies.
We are under a specialist dermatologist for the allergies which show as ear infections and occasional problems with her skin on her body .she hasn't had gastric issued but I know these can all be linked. In the case of Brooke after a long road we are pretty stable on immunotherapy and regular checks and occasional topical treatments.
My suggestion would be be a referral for the suspected allergies as it's very likely the gastric issued sneezing etc are all linked and imo you do need someone who specialises as most general vets just don't have the right knowledge or experience.
If u want to pm me I can give u details of the vet we see who practices in Surrey and u can ask to be referred.allergies are very hard work and lifelong in most cases but can be improved

>should we expect any help from the breeder?

No. You bought the dog based on whatever health testing was done or not done on the parents and it's very much a case of the buyer needing to educate themselves into what to look for. Were both parents elbow scored and what were the results? What was the EBV on the elbows? Was there a full health pedigree? (Parents tested, grandparents etc - with good scores?) This is all down to you to check out, not the breeder.

>We bought her from an accredited Kennel Club breeder and thought this would have given us a level of guarantee that she would be a fit and healthy dog

Unfortunately not. The KC Accredited Breeder scheme is pretty rubbish when it comes to most health-testing and excessively tick-box-y about things which don't even matter IMO. Forget about it as a mark of the status of the breeder.

>We have switched her food to Hills ZD which seems to agree with her but she still suffers from a poorly stomach at least once a month.

Hills ZD - like most dry foods - is really pretty terrible in terms of ingredients. Yes, it manages to hydrolyse the proteins and cause less allergic responses, but the crap that it has in it besides that isn't going to do the dog any good and is probably behind the frequent yeasty ear infections you're seeing: Dogs get rid of toxins through things like scabby skin, yeasty ears, anal glands that get full.. these are all signs of a body struggling to detoxify itself from inappropriate foods. Dogs are not genetically supposed to eat large amounts of grain and little meat, which is what Hills ZD is.

I would highly recommend putting her on a raw diet with a simple ingredient list. It is unlikely she is allergic to all meat - and more likely she is allergic to specific meats. (Chicken is a common allergen.) So try a raw diet with just one protein source and see if you can determine exactly which meat she is allergic to. However, I have known dogs who are able to eat all meat when it's raw anyway even when previously allergic to it cooked - it is the cooking process and denaturing the meat into kibble which causes the allergic response...  See: https://asiakas.kotisivukone.com/files/dogrisk.kotisivukone.com/Poster_149-1371_FENS_Roine_Hielm-Bjorkman.pdf

If you still struggle with ear infections, get some Thornit ear powder (non-prescription, available online) and use that every time until they dry out. But really you want to figure out why it's happening...

Sometimes ED is poor luck. Do you know what the scores were of the parents? Under the scheme they have to be scored but nothing about not breeding from high scores. Also looking back at the generations.
Sometimes poor diet, over exercising and damaging of the joints regards to jumping in and out of vehicles, on and off sofas, playing on the stairs, chasing balls can all contribute to ED too when a dog is young.
I would expect the breeder to be worried but no necessarily financially compensating because ED is not 100% hereditary either.
As for allergens I would want to do an exclusion diet and the 1st thing I would do is put onto a raw diet and cut out all the cards etc from a kibble based diet, see how that goes for a month as that is usually the time it takes to know. Chicken is the main protein dogs are allergic too but it can be others or you get a full work up allergen test straight away.

Has the breeder been in touch and offering moral support?

> we eventually persuaded them to do an x-ray

This alone would make me change my vet.  Your vet should have known an x-ray was needed without you having to persuade them!

Research has shown ED is more genetic than HD & although the ABS doesn't"forbid"people breeding from ED affected dogs, the current BVA advice is only to breed from 0 scored dogs

It is but not 100%.. environmental factors also play a part as they do in HD

ED is much more inherited than HD(despite Malcolm Willis appearing as an expert witness in a civil court case supporting the theory of HD being purely genetic !!!!!!! I have seen the case transcript & the ruling was against the party he appeared for BTW)

The occurrence of ED from generations of 0 scored dogs is much lower than HD from similar scored dogs

Im not disagreeing with you on this, I agree its more hereditary than HD but as said its not 100% genetic

> its not 100% genetic

I'd imagine over exercising a young pup would have a detrimental effect on elbows as well as the other joints.

Depends on the action the dog does or has done. Launching around and landing on those front limbs could easily do it and know a dog who did and nothing wrong with the hips either..

he Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme isn't a guarantee of anything, except that the breeder has done 'some' of the health tests, which should include hips, elbows and the BVA eye certificate, and they are recommended to do the DNA test for PRA as well; that they look after their dogs and have a nice whelping area, which is only checked every so often, and they are then entitled to a discount off KC registration.  Unfortunately, as you can see from that brief description, that allows all and sundry to join and do the bare minimum, a lot of breeders have left because of this, there are known puppy farmers on there all benefiting from discounted KC registration. 

It really is so much more. It takes around 3 hours for the inspection to be carried out, and they look at and photograph everything from dogs to sleeping and whelping areas to food storage and all sorts. They meet the dogs, they spot check microchips, they check your dogs paperwork and health test certificates, they are very strict on the info given out to buyers and you must be offering support. There's questionnaires to be filled out by new owners, which they check up on and tell you what people have said -but they don't tell you who said what, so like I always tell my buyers, they can write absolutely anything down that they found positive or negative, as I will never find out who did it. If you have only done the required health tests they push you about why not the recommended ones too, and strongly suggest you do them and note down your response. It's nothing you can put together at a day's notice or fake. They will notice things such as if the dogs are used to being indoors, used to meeting strangers, as anyone who knows dogs will of course be able to tell if somebody has just brought a few dogs indoors and claim they are really house pets when in reality they live outside. They check any kennels for condition, size, heating, ventilation, temperature etc. They ask where the dogs are exercised etc etc. Sure somebody hell bent on deception could no doubt get away with a few lies, but if your definition of a puppy farmer is somebody whose dogs aren't health tested, all live outdoors, aren't looked after properly, are dirty and unsocialised, never meet people etc, then no, such a person cannot get on the scheme. I don't like the thought of people having large commercial kennels and breeding to make a living, but if the dogs are health tested, cared for etc, then that is at least a lot better than many. The definition of "puppy farmer" can never be agreed on, so unless an official definiton is made by either the KC or by law, there will always be people joining the ABS that some will consider to be puppy farmers. But the ones you see on TV and media, they'd have zero chance of joining.

Finally of course, anyone who isn't happy with their breeder can report them to the KC. They will look into it if it is an AB and they may remove them from the scheme - a breeder outside the scheme you will have very little comeback against. Personally I found it interesting just how many people left the scheme once it was announced that everyone had to be inspected. And those that breed frequently will be inspected more frequently. If you haven't bred a litter for two years or more, they charge you less for your membership automatically. ABs save a couple of quid in registration per pup, but that's hardly a major perk. I find though that you overall get a better quality of enquiry via the ABS.

So it takes 3 hours for an inspection to be carried out and photos to be taken, and then they go, and for the rest of the year, or longer, that breeder could keep their dogs in appalling conditions for all they know.  How on earth do they know if a dog is used to being indoors or not?  If it's generally a happy dog they wouldn't have a clue if it was normally outside more than inside or the other way around?  My definition of a puppy farmer is probably different to yours, I'd class someone as a puppy farmer whose sole purpose is to make a living from breeding their dogs, and who will cut corners to do so, ie maximising profit over ethics.  A lot of people might refer to some as commercial breeders that I'd call a puppy farmer, I certainly don't agree with the definition as set out on the KC website. 

There was a secretary of a breed club who was an ABS member, kept their dogs in appalling conditions, bred litters of 'oodles' inbetween KC registered puppies, and it wasn't until someone was brave enough to blow the whistle that they were caught and banned from the ABS and the club.  It had been known about for some time, but people didn't want to be the one to report them, and yes, people can become ill and things get on top of them, I've had some horrible life experiences, but I've never resorted to keeping my dogs in poor conditions or felt the need to use a poodle in my breeding programme.

I've had numerous people contact me over lockdown over ABS breeders profiteering and also carrying on breeding from bitches with very poor health tests during lockdown for no good reason, hip score of 21/22 and four litters out of the bitch, three to the dog owned by their son in law, whose to say they haven't possibly had more and not registered them?  And, although they might push you about doing the recommended tests, there are plenty of them who aren't doing them, so they can't push that hard.  Two people who've come to me about ABS breeders have reported them to the KC, and so far, only one has had anything done about it; the breeder who bred on from the bitch with 21/22 hips the KC have come back and said there's nothing they can do, the potential puppy buyer has lost a £200 deposit, but is happy knowing she's not supported that breeder, and that she's not got a pup with an awful EBV for hips and elbows. 

One person posted about their puppy on a group, and me being the nosy cow I am, noticed the photo wasn't right for the stud dog that had been used, pointed this out, and then on closer inspection the ABS member who owned the stud dog, and hadn't tested for PRA, had allowed their dog to be used on an affected status bitch. 

So there you go, all members of the ABS and I could go on, it's why I left the scheme after being a member for the first year when it was originally the Accredited Breeder Scheme, and it's why I will carry on saying the scheme is not at all a guarantee of anything, there are as many bad breeders in there as good from the numbers of people who ask me about adverts involving ABS members, only to then find out corners have been cut, something hasn't been done, and so on.  I'm sorry if that offends people who are a part of the scheme and are going about things in the way the scheme was intended, ie to promote good breeding, but it needs more than just a little tweaking, for me, it should be completely scrapped as there are far too many members of the public thinking that all members MUST be good breeders.

Some dodgy breeders (that can and should be reported, if people know about it and do nothing they should be ashamed of themselves) does not mean the entire scheme is wrong. How can it be better to stand alongside those that do no health testing at ALL? That are never checked on? I'd rather hold my head high and know that I cannot register pups unless the testing is done. I agree that high hip scores etc should not be allowed to breed from though.

If you can't tell from a dog's body language whether it is new to an area/room or not, maybe you just need to study canine body language a bit more.

> If you can't tell from a dog's body language whether it is new to an area/room or not, maybe you just need to study canine body language a bit more.

If I took my dogs into a brand new room with a person in, they wouldn't care about the room, they'd be all over the person.  I take my dogs in beating wagons and all sorts of strange and unfamiliar places, so they are taught from a young age to just get in and get on with it.  So depending on the character of the dog you may not know if they've never seen that room before, and they may have been in two or three times previously, but are kept elsewhere the rest of the time.  Perhaps you should take a leaf out of your own book

I do hips, elbows, BVA eye cert, and the genetic tests recommended by the breed clubs (PRA, EIC, CNM, HNPK and SD2), more than the ABS requires.  I also wouldn't have four litters out of a bitch, yes it's allowable, even on the ABS, I don't think it's necessary or acceptable, my personal view.  The ABS is not fit for purpose, and should be scrapped, this is not the thread really to post about it, I've posted in detail elsewhere about different ideas, but this thread yet again goes to prove that members of the public think (wrongly) that members of the ABS are ALL good breeders, when it is patently not the case.

The ABS is far from perfect but I think it's a good starting point and it needs responsible, ethical breeders involved to influence and steer it in the right direction - in terms of health testing, I also go above and beyond what is recommended. Personally as a member of the scheme, I don't think I would be able to educate people on the flaws of the scheme and say there are others on there who I would personally not buy a puppy from if I wasn't part of the scheme - the general public are likely to just perceive me as someone who has a chip on my shoulder.

I refuse to pay money to be a member of a scheme that allows these sort of things to go on, I did stay with it for the very reason you describe, but when you have situations as I've described above, then the basis of the scheme, to me, is flawed.  I don't think the ABS is salvageable, because it's not able to be policed effectively and there are too many grey areas, but that's just my view and others may not agree, which is fair enough.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. The original post was not so much about criticising (or not) the ABS but more just if anyone had any advice about moving forward. Our breeder had done all the necessary and recommended checks and our puppy certainly wasn’t over exercised when young-she could barely walk more than 5 mins at a time due to pain. And we fully know that buying a dog means you never know what you’re going to get-it’s not our first dog! It was more about whether anyone had any advice as to who to speak to about moving forward. Fitzpatricks have done the surgery for the elbows but our vets are not great at offering advice on allergies but we don’t have a lot of vet choices where we live! Have people done the blood tests that vets offer to ascertain what the dog is allergic to? And have they found them to be reliable? Or I know you can do hair tests? Our vet has said both blood and hair tests are unreliable so not sure what to do next to find out what she is allergic to!!

Blood and hair tests are not 100% reliable but they do give you a starting point and they are more reliable than just guesswork, so definitely worth a shot. It sounds like you might need to get a referral to a specialist vet with more knowledge about allergies so you can pursue things more as it can be a complicated field.

But really, as I said above, an exclusion diet (as is followed in people) using raw meat of a single protein source at a time, would be the logical approach - systematically ruling foods in or out is often the best approach.

You mentioned she was sniffing freshly cut grass - had the grass gone to seed?  Those grass seeds can cause lots of problems for dogs sadly:-(

Can you get a referral to a dermatologist? I think that is your best bet and they can test for some things and then consider an elimination diet and will explain in detail how to do that or refer you onto a nutritionist.
I think you do need to consider a specialist in various fields because there is only so much which can be done by a regular vet and their capabilities.

I guess you should consult with a specialist. General vets may not understand what your dog is going through. I hope your dog gets well soon.

As we are under a dermatologist specialist yes we have done blood tests and then exclusion diets .
Forget the hair tests especially if they are done via people who arnt vets . There are many out there and results are ridiculous .in the early days when I was going round in circles I used one but when u get told you dog is allergic to radon gas ! And tomatoes which they don't eat but even if I have them in the fridge oh and copper . I gave up with that
I've even seen hair from the same dog being sent in with different names and getting differing results back .
Allergies are very hard work and unless u are really lucky u do need a specialist. Even with that it's usually a lifetimes treatment .
I don't know where u live but there are a number of places where u can be referred to but it may mean travel of course. Your vet would know who is around for you or if u tell us the area of the country we can likely suggest so it can be discussed with your vet for the referral