Can I ask some advise please. Am I correct in understanding that the KC will not certificate an adult clear or carrier until it is Vet examined and is over 12 months of age. I am considering paying over 2k (top of my budget) for a puppy whose dam is a carrier of PRA. (Sire is clear) The breeder who sounds very genuine says she has sent away DNA samples (they are 4-5 weeks old) to confirm their PRA status. Is this possible and how accurate/reliable will the results be please?

PRA is in several breeds, but yes, it is possible to send off samples to a laboratory, they do not need to be taken by a vet, just a mouth swab is sufficient.  Of course, you then have to rely on the honesty of the person taking the swabs.  That said, if the dam is a carrier, and the sire is clear, then your puppy cannot be affected. And if the breeder has offered to test on your behalf it sounds like a genuine situation to me, you can, of course, retest yourself.  If you are hoping to breed on, having a carrier is not the end of the world, even an affected status is something you can breed clear from.

This sounds fine to me. As Sleeping lion said, if one parent is a Carrier and the other is Clear, none of the puppies can be Affected by the condition. (Ie - none of them will actually have it.)

There is a risk that a puppy could be a Carrier, but even then that doesn't matter unless you want to breed that dog when older. Even then, it doesn't really matter because you just need to make sure you choose a dog which is Clear - so that in turn you also don't have any Affected puppies.

It is kind of super-conscientious of the breeder to test, just because it doesn't really make any difference to you unless you want to breed and even then it's not a huge problem - but it is good to know what you're getting, I guess.

My dog is also a Carrier for a condition and I bred her to a Clear. I didn't test the resulting puppies but I put endorsements on them all and made health-testing, including this test, part of any requirements for endorsements to be lifted.

Thank you for your comprehensive response.I am suitably reassured and tbh the breeder has been very honest and I do trust her.

Thanks I guess my only other thought was should the price reflect the fact I could purchase a carrier v an all clear bred puppy, as yes, I definaetly wish to breed at a later date?

PS

>the KC will not certificate an adult clear or carrier until it is Vet examined and is over 12 months of age. I am considering paying over 2k (top of my budget) for a puppy whose dam is a carrier of PRA. (Sire is clear)

It sounds like you are getting the DNA test for PRA confused with the annual BVA eye test.  Basically, there are various different kinds of PRA. One kind we can determine genetically with the DNA test at any age - even tiny puppies. Other types of PRA and other eye conditions we can only look for regularly and don't yet have DNA tests for.

So these are different tests. The DNA test is for one very specific type of PRA. Then there are the annual BVA eye exams which should be carried out annually in affected breeds and will look for a wider range of conditions. These can only be assessed by a board certified ophthalmologist vet. I don't think there is a minimum age you can do them at, but most eye conditions probably wouldn't show up in a young pup anyway, so 12 months would be the most common age to start the annual BVA tests. If you don't plan on breeding, you only need do the tests if you want to check how your dog's eyes are...

>I guess my only other thought was should the price reflect the fact I could purchase a carrier v an all clear bred puppy, as yes, I definaetly wish to breed at a later date?

No, not at all. The price for a Carrier should be the same as a Clear. There is no disadvantage physical or in any other way to a dog being a Carrier, so there is no reason for a reduced price.

Thank you onetwothreefour  Can I understand from that then even if the puppy DNA test is clear they could still develop other types of PRA that would on;y be picked up at the annual eye test. So actually you should only buy puppies from clear parents with a current BVA clear certificate?

> Can I understand from that then even if the puppy DNA test is clear they could still develop other types of PRA that would on;y be picked up at the annual eye test.

Yes, and there's nothing anyone can do about that really.

> So actually you should only buy puppies from clear parents with a current BVA clear certificate?

Well it's a little hard to say without knowing what breed you're talking about. There are some breeds where for sure annual (which is what is called 'current') BVA eye certificates are required by the Assured Breeder Scheme and are pretty essential - alongside the DNA pra test.

Basically, if it is a breed where the KC have agreed to record the eye test results on Mate Select, then yes.

If you can look up any dog in the breed and see a specific result - Unaffected - after their eye test and date, then yes - you should be looking for a current Unaffected/Clear eye test result from both parents. But if it's a breed where the KC don't conventionally record the result, or just write 'Results with the owner' (which means they don't record it in that breed) then arguably it is an optional extra and not an essential for that breed.

Its a mini smooth haired Dachshund- I appreciate it is all about reducing risk there are no guarantees :)

Do you mean you should pay less for buying a carrier ?

A carrier cannot develop the condition so it would only affect the choice of stud dog which would need to be a normal/cllear for the condition.

The dog itself is unaffected so I cannot see the reasoning for wanting to pay less.

There are no listings for other forms of PRA in Dachshund on the BVA site although the Dachshund breed club requires all breeds be clinically eye tested

> if the dam is a carrier, and the sire is clear, then your puppy cannot be affected.

According to Mendels Theory - Clear to Carrier will result in 50% clear and 50% carrier.    For future reference, even if the puppy won't be affected.

That's not Affected. (A Carrier is not Affected.)
There are three results after a DNA test: Clear, Carrier and Affected.

This is true:

>if the dam is a carrier, and the sire is clear, then your puppy cannot be affected.

I remember having a chat with someone a few years ago now, he had what he considered to be (and still does) his dog of a life time.  Unfortunately, he was PRA Affected, had he wished to, he could have bred clear from the condition, by looking for a bitch owner, or buying in a suitable bitch to breed on from.  As it is he never did, but a lot of people seem to frown from breeding on from an affected status dog, even when that dog never develops the condition.  As it is, this dog did develop the condition later on in life, but still worked right till the end of when he could use his nose and knowledge of the terrain.  I see no problem in breeding affected to clear, to breed on from an exceptional dog, there are plenty of people who don't bother health testing at all and never get criticised because the known status isn't there in full view.  And that goes for quite a few of the health tests.

MT - affected to clear = All Carrier.  That can't help the gene pool of a breed so I'd never breed from an affected, unless it's vital the affected dog be used.

Why is it bad for the gene pool?  All you do is make sure pups are endorsed, and, if anyone wants to breed on, you test that puppy before it goes on them as potential breeding stock.  That way you maintain better genetic diversity.  If you threw out all the affected status dog, you reduce genetic diversity for no reason.  There's far too many people not willing to use carriers even.  And there's plenty of people not testing at all, including ABS members (as it's not a requirement) and producing affected status pups because they can't be bothered to test and allow dogs to cover bitches that aren't health tested, or in some cases I've seen, carrier status used with unknown status.

The logic behind using genetics in breeding is to reduce the number of animals carrying the condition & reduce the occurance of the condition

By breeding from affected animals you are increasing the possibility of carriers & actually spreading the possibility of carriers of the condition in the population.

You cannot stop owners breeding from their animals to another of unknown status & producing affected offspring as once the animal leaves your ownership. You have no control no matter what contract you get them to sign or what endorsements you put on the registration. This is why many people opt to not breed from carriers/affected animals.

Not all breeders/ owners are ethical.

If you don't have control over what owners do, then you haven't checked out the owners enough.  Yes, it can happen that someone does lie to you to get a puppy, but as long as you have endorsed puppies, and explained this to the owners, then at the very least the owners cannot register any pups with the KC.  So where is the problem?  Yes, it is still a problem that they would go ahead and breed on without your consent as the breeder, but that's up to you to research who is wanting a puppy, ask them directly do they have any plans to breed on, and explain the situation if there is the possibility of a puppy being a carrier, and I would offer to test their puppy to verify the status. 

When I look through pedigrees for Labradors, there are a lot of common ancestors, a lot of stud dogs being used that are clear for everything at the minute, and all I see are big bottle necks everywhere.  To me the logic behind the DNA tests is not to exclude dogs from breeding, but to use the information to breed clear, and as you can breed clear from an affected status dog over two generations I see no problem. 

I've got a few of my pups where owners are wanting to breed on, my pups are all clear as it happens, but I'd have no qualms about recommending they use a dog that is a carrier for a condition if that dog were a good, proven example of the breed in all other respects.  Would I suggest they use an affected status dog?  No.  But if I had a dog that was what I thought of as my dog of a lifetime and a new genetic test came out and they were affected status, I might try and breed on from them myself to a clear dog/bitch.  And let's face it, there are 100's of DNA conditions listed now, my bitch (now spayed) is clear for 150 of them, not all of them relate to Labradors as it happens, but what if she were affected for Narcolepsy?  I have never, ever heard of a Labrador suffering from narcolepsy (unless that just includes the fact that they like sleeping a lot in which case I suspect I'm affected status), and suspect it's a gene they stumbled across rather than researched and tested for, or if she were affected status for a condition not thought to be a problem at all in the breed?


but what if she were affected for Narcolepsy?  I have never, ever heard of a Labrador suffering from narcolepsy (unless that just includes the fact that they like sleeping a lot in which case I suspect I'm affected status), and suspect it's a gene they stumbled across rather than researched and tested for, or if she were affected status for a condition not thought to be a problem at all in the breed?


Are you a geneticist ?

So for example a researcher is working on Epilepsy in Labradors, whilst doing so they just stumble across a gene they KNOW causes Narcolepsy, how is it identified ? How do they know ?

How well do you know the bloodlines of US Labradors ? Do you know all the genetic conditions present in those bloodlines ?

"There are two forms of narcolepsy in dogs. A genetic basis has been found in Labrador Retrievers and Doberman Pinschers and is due to a mutation involving the hypocretin receptor 2. Sporadic cases can happen in any breed and is caused by a loss of hypocretin 1-producing neurons in the hypothalamus.

Obviously someone has heard of Narcolepsy in Labradors

Much as I find this discussion interesting I believe it has gone way off the OP's origianl question and should be continued in a seperate thread.