First of all, hello. We're new here. :)

We're currently on the lookout for a retriever. Our plan is to find a well-regarded breeder who is expecting a litter and put our names down, but I am keeping an eye on sites like Pets4Homes until then. To my dismay, three out of the top five Labs listed in my area this morning are adolescent dogs who are for sale "due to a change of circumstances". It seems that a lot of people who bought 'lockdown puppies' are waking up to the realities of looking after them. On a personal level, I find that really unfair on the dogs (not to mention the people who've waited years to get one, only to find that their budget has now trebled...)

Anyway, rant over. I wondered if I could ask you a few questions about these dogs?

They mostly seem to be older puppies and adolescent dogs, of about seven to nine months. Assuming we're talking about a generally good-natured breed like a Lab, and assuming they haven't been actively mistreated, how wary would you be about the psychological impact of that? If they had picked up some bad habits or insecurities, would it still be possible to train it out of them?

In terms of physical health, I would ask all the same questions (hip scores etc) as I would to a breeder - partly to assess the dog and partly to gauge how much research the owner did before buying. But are there physical ailments that might have manifested themselves by that age that you wouldn't notice in a younger puppy? In other words, could the owner have an ulterior motive for passing them on?

I realise you have to be extremely careful with these dogs - suss out whether the seller seems legitimate, ensure they're microchipped etc. It's not something we'd enter into lightly.

Any good breeder sells pups with a contract of sale in place, which often times states specifically the pup/dog has to go back to them, it can't just be sold on.  So I'd be wary that the breeder doesn't really care that their puppy is being sold on, or has gone to a home where the owners are untrustworthy and selling their puppy on.  Have a look at Lucy's law, as I'm sure it's now illegal to buy a pup to sell on, but have seen discussions on here about whether or not it is and haven't read through them all so am unsure exactly what the law covers. 

The thing is, with a well bred pup from a breeder you get as much information as possible about the health testing on the parents and behind them, you meet the mum at least which gives you an idea of what sort of character pups might be, and you get to meet the breeder who will hopefully give you a lot of support, some will do this throughout the life time of the pup/dog as well. 

If anyone is selling a pup on because it has some sort of medical condition which they can't cope with/afford, unfortunately I don't think you will get many honest people in those circumstances. 

You will struggle to find a puppy from a good breeder right now, as a lot have put breeding plans on hold until this lockdown eases, and everybody else is just profiteering for the most part.  So you've got two choices really, either research and find a good breeder who has plans for later in the year or early into 2021, get on their waiting list and be a part of the whole process from before pups are even conceived, and hopefully it's a good experience (I've done this in the past and it was lovely to meet mum, breeder, see pups soon after they were born etc); or, you can take a chance on a slightly older pup being sold on.

Personally, my view is that if all these people who bought pups under lock down sell them on, then nothing has been learned, they've just got their money back.  If they are left with pups they can't sell and have to ask for a rescue to help them out, hopefully the rescues will home check properly and the pups will end up in the right place, and the puppy buyers won't have made a penny from the experience (hopefully).

I don't think it would be any different to taking on a Rescue. 

These dogs will almost always come with 'baggage' (my term), behaviours they have been allowed to get away with or things that were ok with their previous owners, but perhaps not with you.  7 - 9 months could be akin to the terrible 2s with children which may mean extra effort on your part in terms of training 'out' before training 'in'.   Leaving aside whether or not the pup has been abused.   It wouldn't stop me from buying however - provided you go visit and see if the dog is out of control     

However, I would be very wary of paying a lot of money for such a dog.   All too often people who buy on an impulse, get up one morning and think hey, let's buy a puppy, but when it doesn't work out, for whatever reason seem to think they can recoup their losses - the entire buy in cost of the puppy.   Plus of course, puppies coming from a reputable breeder should always be under an obligation (in the Sale Contract) to take the puppy back to it's breeder which, as a now retired breeder, I'd always hope would happen rather than discover later that the pup had gone from it's original owner to where?

Go look and if it doesn't feel right - don't buy.   This should be more than buying the puppy to get it out of a bad situation.

> (I've done this in the past and it was lovely to meet mum, breeder, see pups soon after they were born etc);

This is how it was when we bought our Whippet. 

> I don't think it would be any different to taking on a Rescue.

Indeed. We have also registered with a couple of rescue charities around here and I see it as a similar situation. But there is at least a possibility that the owner will give you an honest assessment of the dog, which a rescue charity won't be able to provide with a dog of unknown origin.

It makes me really angry that people do this to dogs. As far as I'm concerned, it's barely removed from selling your children when they misbehave. However, I do know a couple of people who've done it in the past (returning a dog when they find they can't cope, I mean, not reselling for a profit...) Fundamentally good, kind people who sought out a good puppy and just woefully underestimated the amount of work involved. At least some of them are genuine.

Scoping out whether or not I trust the owner is something I'm quite comfortable doing. The bit I'm trying to suss out currently is whether there are specific physical or psychological issues I should be on the lookout for if we did go down this route - anything above and beyond the scrutiny you'd apply to a puppy coming from the same home.

> I don't think it would be any different to taking on a Rescue.

Hmmm, I think the difference is that a rescue will have had a dog checked out by the vet, so there is more likelihood of them picking up a health problem before they then go on to rehome a dog.  And they will assess whether the home is a good fit for the pup/dog as well.

Behaviourally, my primary concern with reference to lockdown would be separation anxiety, as too many new puppy owners aren't taking steps to make sure their pup learns to cope with being left.  This alone is enough to make me extremely wary of considering any post lockdown youngster for a new addition, having just spent 6 months addressing a complete SA relapse in my own dog after 5 years cured.

After that, socialisation.  In another breed I might put those the other way round but with labs, they tend to be robust socially regardless (with exceptions, of course) so fear or reactivity issues would be much less of a concern to me.

Otherwise, I'd worry about elbow and hip problems with a lab but that would go for any pup lockdown or otherwise, as the vast majority (as with most common or fairly common breeds these days) are not well bred.

at least you can see the dog in its own home which gives a truer reflection of its nature then in a rescue kennel.  you can ask for the pedigree name in advance and go look up the parents health scores.
I'd expect probably a bit of thug , training minimal, will likely have separation anxiety, lacking manners and unsocial as no one will have been able to do the normal puppy socialisation but hey its a lab so is trainable, naturally fairly social so with a lot of effort bring roundable. 
I would not pay very much for such a dog as will be a lot more work to correct then training one right from day one.  anyone thinking they can get even half of puppy price is being unrealistic. and I mean half of normal puppy price- not half of idiotic amounts people have been paying

admit I looked at a 9 month Weimaraner years ago when wanted a dog and came away without as was so appallingly behaved no way was I tackling that. she was literally doing the wall of death and would not stop mouthing me while jumping on my head.....  whats cute at 8 weeks is unfunny when bigger  . I felt sorry for her but not sorry enough to have months of hell correcting bad unbringing. she was well bred- from a top breeder but the owners wanted more money then breeder would give

> I don't think it would be any different to taking on a Rescue.<br />Hmmm, I think the difference is that a rescue will have had a dog checked out by the vet, so there is more likelihood of them picking up a health problem before they then go on to rehome a dog.

I was meaning in terms of behaviour, not health.

Ah right, in which case that would depend on the rescue as I don't think all do as good a job as assessing dogs, and, where needed, any training/rehabilitation.  I'm sure rescues can be a bit of a gamble as well sometimes, then you get the other extreme that won't let you have a dog because you have an entire guinea pig!

> I'm sure rescues can be a bit of a gamble as well

Frustratingly, as I'm finding out, which is why I have feelers out amongst people I know!!

If the puppies you are looking at, are 7-9 months old, they are not 'lockdown' puppies and have not been raised during the socialisation period during lockdown.

Let's not forget that lockdown lasted 3 months, from end of March to about now, end of June. Even a 7 month old puppy was 4 months at the start of lockdown, which is pretty much outside the socialisation period to be honest.

I would always meet with any dog before deciding to adopt. You will see how the dog behaves before deciding to take the pup on. Physical issues are a bit harder to determine, but you could ask for their vet's details and they could give their vet permission to discuss the dog with you. You could then have access to their vet records and see what the dog has been to the vet for...

> If the puppies you are looking at, are 7-9 months old, they are not 'lockdown' puppies and have not been raised during the socialisation period during lockdown.

I later, when thinking more about this question, figured that out.    So yes, these people would have had the youngster before lockdown.

Entire Guinea pig had me in stitches but true.
I've heard of rescues who demand all animals in the house to be neutered regardless of species it seemed

Whilst they may not have been born during lockdown, any puppy right now might have been adversely affected by the lockdown.  I've been worried about my litter which was born in July last year, I'm in touch with the owners so I know they've all coped well during lockdown, but things like socialisation and training have all been held back.  I was due to start a training course with my own pup that I kept back, but classes are only just now starting back, so we're a few months behind training alongside others.

> I'm sure rescues can be a bit of a gamble as well sometimes, then you get the other extreme that won't let you have a dog because you have an entire guinea pig!

Indeed. I was told that one rescue organisation requires a minimum fence height of 6ft around the entire perimeter of the garden. If you have a suburban back garden with panel fencing that's probably fairly standard, but very few people in rural areas have a 6+ ft fence the whole way around the garden. (My mum homechecks for another rescue charity. She has a smallholding with standard 4ft-ish agricultural fencing and she's never had any problems, even with very athletic lurchers who could probably clear that if they wanted to.) Others won't rehome to anyone with children - which is probably wise in some cases, but should really be a question of assessing the individual circumstances.

We'll keep looking, but I think the chances of getting a young, healthy, child-friendly dog from a rescue centre are pretty small unless we went for a staffy or a terrier. Registered with the Irish Retriever Rescue and the Black Retriever Cross Rescue.

> I've heard of rescues who demand all animals in the house to be neutered regardless of species it seemed

Many Tears, for whom I am a home checker, want that (at least dogs and cats - I don't know about other species).    No way was I going to have my old boy castrated even if my Whippet was spayed just before she was 1 year.

Incidentally I spotted a 6 year old Beagle with MT and asked about any health issues.   They told me he'd not been 'vetted' yet.  Today (this was yesterday) I noted he's been moved to the Reserved list.   He wasn't 'available' for long!!  I just hope he's found a great home!

> Whilst they may not have been born during lockdown, any puppy right now might have been adversely affected by the lockdown.

Plus, even if they bought and collected the puppy before lockdown, many people will have spent the last three months on furlough, without having to worry about going to work, taking the kids to school etc. I think it's fair to say that the return to (some degree of) normality will be a difficult transition for a lot of people, particularly if it comes just as the puppy goes from a cute ball of fluff to a boisterous adolescent.

> Entire Guinea pig had me in stitches but true.<br />I've heard of rescues who demand all animals in the house to be neutered regardless of species it seemed

I've heard this too, do you think they send someone out to check!!

Now that's a thought and how could you
know with a female animal :)