Someone asked on another forum an interesting question...

They are a responsible breeder wanting/needing to breed to keep a pup back for themselves now - but they have no idea how to price the remaining puppies in the current market. When there are un-health-tested pups from crappy breeders being sold for £2K, it irks them to sell their fully health tested and optimally raised pups for the usual £900. They are also worried that if something goes wrong, rather than return to pup to them some buyers might sell the pup on for double the price. And they are worried some cunning people might pose as 'good' puppy buyers to purchase a pup and sell on for double the price.

The other thought I had is...

In North America, well bred pups from the breed I have, go for about $2800. That is just considered the normal price for a well-bred pup even pre-coronavirus. (In the UK, it's about £900 pre coronavirus.) US people I spoke with thought UK prices were ridiculously cheap, pre-coronavirus. And I have to say part of me agrees with that, knowing how much time and expense goes into raising a litter well.

So, is this massive UK price hike something which actually responsible UK breeders should get on board with?

It will always be ruled by economics, so supply and demand regardless of what people want or what it costs.  As current demand gets met then the excess supply will see a price fall until it equalises again.  Sorry to talk about our much loved pooches as a commodity but that's just how it is.

>So, is this massive UK price hike something which actually responsible UK breeders should get on board with?

Only if litters cost proportionately more to rear! It's hard to justify a mark-up of several hundred percent. The more people pay, the more likely they are to try to recoup the cost with 'just one litter' from their pet, turning it from a pet into a money-maker for them.

It's noticeable that the huge prices are being asked for by BYBs, scammers (the litters don't actually exist, they just want a deposit 'to secure' and then vanish) and people breeding non-standard (aka 'rare' ) colours.

There is absolutely no reason to charge the inflated prices that some 'breeders' are, it's simply profiteering, and in the UK that has specifically been stated as against the law during the current situation.  If you are charging what is a fair price anyway, why do you want more money?  And the excuse that you don't want pups to go to a home that might then sell them on just doesn't wash, if you haven't checked out homes thoroughly enough to know the owners wouldn't do this then why are you letting them have a puppy in the first place?  So for me, it's a big no, it's a moot point in any case as I don't have any pups and none planned for a while, but I would still price pups at what I thought was a fair price for a good home, not what I thought I could chance getting for them.  A high price does not always equal a good home I'm afraid.

>US people I spoke with thought UK prices were ridiculously cheap, pre-coronavirus. And I have to say part of me agrees with that, knowing how much time and expense goes into raising a litter well.

The logical, fair way to price a litter is to add up all the costs, divide the total by the number of puppies, and at most double it (a 100% mark up is a reasonable rate!) to get the price per pup.

This is an emotive topic I understand with the natural revulsion relating to profiteering during the pandemic.  However, I've long felt that we have an issue with under pricing well-bred puppies in this country too.  People value what they pay for and up until Covid they were getting puppies at hugely below cost prices - and even getting a lucky bag freebie 'puppy pack' to go with them!  That's always struck me as unsustainable and limiting.  I am not a breeder myself but a puppy buyer I should say here to be clear. 

Puppy prices in no way reflect the true cost of breeding if you take into account the hours and days and weeks of essentially free labour that good breeders put in, as well as all the other costs.  I know that in some ways, this free work done by the breeders is an honourable stance that is part of the integrity of working for the betterment of the breed.  It is however real work that is being done and which is not being paid for.  Not very many people can afford to volunteer so much of their time so freely in such a cause as they have to work and earn money to live.

Partly because of that, we have a shortage of good breeders in the UK and that market gap is filled by puppy farmers who can cut corners in care and quality to make a profit.  If puppy buyers were willing to actually pay for a well-bred puppy what it costs to raise it, then perhaps more good breeders could afford to breed dogs as a vocation and we would have better bred dogs, more diverse breeding programs and less of a market gap for the puppy farmers.  Right now they are charging more than good breeders are and can get away with it because of demand.  I would far rather see that demand met by responsible breeders who wouldn't be flooding the country with dogs with ill health and poor temperament.  If experienced breeders could act as mentors to people who have a real desire to become breeders then that would fill the knowledge gap, help to meet demand and secure the future of their breeds too.  Otherwise, in these very difficult economic times to come, the breeding of quality dogs may risk dwindling away as more people have to give up costly hobbies to concentrate on the business of keeping food on the table.

I have always felt I would rather save for longer and pay a higher price for a pup from a breeder who was going the extra mile in terms of careful raising and socialisation of the puppy.  This wasn't though something that was even an option in the past.  It is now though and I really feel offers breeders a chance to change the game rules of breeding as a vocation, not just as a hobby.  I know that is uncomfortable to consider when it strikes at long held values but I do think there are real risks of not updating breeding approaches and charges.  There's a real risk of pups being sold on for profit rather than returned to breeders now that the goal posts have changed around puppy prices as well as the risks of long term damage to the breeds themselves.  Change is coming, if we like it or not and Covid is just one of the big changes heading our way.  I think it's time for the dog breeding world to collectively look at what this means for their breeds in the future. This is just my view as a non-breeder, from the outside looking in.

In 2000 I paid £400 for a pup from a top breeder, she went on to get her Ch title. I checked with an online inflation calculator the other day and in today's money it would only be something like £670 !

I don't even charge £900. I don't breed to make money and the puppy money tends to cover the expenses for the litter plus a bit more. My breed is very healthy and whelp easily. I pretty much always give one puppy for free per litter to a friend or relative. I would never charge my closest friends. So with keeping one that means two per litter that aren't paid for.

I spend a LONG time getting to know my puppy buyers. Often a year or more. I don't worry that any of them would sell a puppy on -which of course is now also illegal in England. No there's never any guarantees, but I'm as sure as I can be. Charging more will not change that.

I don't WANT people to have to pay huge amounts. Being able to afford a high price doesn't automatically mean they will be a good owner. But nor does NOT being able to afford a high price mean that they won't be, or won't be able to afford vet fees etc. You can get a dog insured for as little as £12 a month, life time insurance, and that is a lot easier to afford to pay out monthly than a four figure sum all in one go.

You cannot compare US prices for dogs to the UK( or anywhere else TBH)

US prices have been much higher than the UK for a very long time. A friend of mine who is now living in the USA wanted a GSD from working line fully health tested parents. They were shocked to find the prices asked where in 4 figures & this was over 5 years ago. 3,000$ + for a "pet" puppy was the starting price & the parents were NOT working dogs themselves. Puppies from dogs that were supposedly "working dogs" were upto twice this amount. It was cheaper for them to travel to Europe, visit breeders & litters & import a puppy.

Many "breeders" in the US expect to get mega bucks from their puppies, even the "ethical" ones that do health testing etc. To suggest that UK breeders should follow the US prices is totally unacceptable, it's madness to suggest UK breeders should make money because it is what happens in the US.

A friend of mine had a US visitor at Crufts try to buy their dog for 10,000$, because they could earn 3 times that using him at stud & the dog wasn't a Champion, but had popular lines in his pedigree.

I don't know how people are absolutely and totally determining they are not being deceived by puppy buyers, but I'd like to suggest it's all well and good to think this just couldn't happen and is impossible - until it happens to you. A couple of times now, I've been lied to by prospective puppy buyers, despite meeting them, interviewing them, getting them to fill out a questionnaire, google-mapping their house and doing all I could. One time, the puppy buyers hid from me the fact that they had just got another puppy of a different breed, a few weeks before coming to collect mine. I had to fight them to get the puppy back, which I did. Another time buyers gave me their aunt's address to google map because theirs was totally unsuitable. (Aunt would have forwarded mail.) And so on.

It is ludicrous to think that somehow we can be immune to all deception just through applying due diligence and checks.

And puppy scammers are definitely going to step in if prices from reputable breeders stay low. It's a tidy profit, to buy a pup for £900, turn around and sell the pup for £2K - no time, effort or expenses needed there...!

So I think the idea of people selling pups on, is a real concern. 

I totally agree with the OP above who believes that prices have been way below what they should be in the UK for quite some time. It has been difficult to raise them to where they should be, though, because then you look like you are overvaluing your pups alongside everyone else and buyers will just go to the people charging the average. Perhaps it takes something as world-changing as a pandemic to see things get to where they should be.

And I agree, we should be recompensed for our time and effort and energy, it's not some kind of badge to wear - that we are breeding without making any money, how noble we are, etc blah.... More people could afford to breed reputably if they were able to make better money doing it because they could devote their money-earning time to raising pups instead of whatever else they usually do. The fact that so few people can afford to do it is what leads to back yard breeders having the occasional litter and puppy farmers stepping in - more quality litters from breeders who can afford to invest their time and effort in the litter are definitely needed. And the way things were before corona was hardly preventing puppy farmers anyway, because they just focus on quantity to make a profit. Legislation is the only way puppy farming will get shut down and we are well on the way with that.

>I don't worry that any of them would sell a puppy on -which of course is now also illegal in England.

I thought this was the case but was told earlier today this doesn’t apply to owners only commercial sellers?

And I agree, we should be recompensed for our time and effort and energy, it's not some kind of badge to wear - that we are breeding without making any money, how noble we are, etc blah....

Really? So you expect to make money out of your hobby, something you don't do because you have to but something you do because you ENJOY doing it, and enjoyment being the reason for why we do it? That makes no sense at all. What you are talking about is running a business.

I don't think anyone is under the impression that some people will lie to try and get a puppy from you, thankfully I've not experienced this, one person who came close to having a pup from me and I found out wasn't being entirely truthful I told them they weren't having the puppy.  They had visited to pick her out, but I wasn't entirely happy with them.  But then I don't breed much so there's a much smaller chance of this happening, as compared to someone who has three or more litters a year, and has to find a lot more potential puppy owners. 

Thankfully, my job pays for my hobby, I'd hate to have to rely on breeding to make me a living.  If I conservatively estimated how much I'd have to charge per puppy to cover my income, I'd be charging approximately £12k per puppy, or breeding a lot more than I'd want to.  I'll leave the high prices and numbers to others, I'm quite happy with how I do things.

Silly-high prices make dogs more attractive to dog thieves.

Someone asked on another forum an interesting question...

They are a responsible breeder wanting/needing to breed to keep a pup back for themselves now - but they have no idea how to price the remaining puppies in the current market. When there are un-health-tested pups from crappy breeders being sold for £2K, it irks them to sell their fully health tested and optimally raised pups for the usual £900. They are also worried that if something goes wrong, rather than return to pup to them some buyers might sell the pup on for double the price. And they are worried some cunning people might pose as 'good' puppy buyers to purchase a pup and sell on for double the price.

The other thought I had is...

In North America, well bred pups from the breed I have, go for about $2800. That is just considered the normal price for a well-bred pup even pre-coronavirus. (In the UK, it's about £900 pre coronavirus.) US people I spoke with thought UK prices were ridiculously cheap, pre-coronavirus. And I have to say part of me agrees with that, knowing how much time and expense goes into raising a litter well.

So, is this massive UK price hike something which actually responsible UK breeders should get on board with?

Breeding is stressful enough anyway but the thought of someone buying your puppy and then selling it on to make a quick profit without you knowing makes your stress levels go through the roof (not knowing where your puppy has gone) that would be extremely heartbreaking.

>> I don't worry that any of them would sell a puppy on -which of course is now also illegal in England. <br />I thought this was the case but was told earlier today this doesn’t apply to owners only commercial sellers?

Yes in England it's commercial third party sales of puppies and kittens that are banned. So dealers and pet shops.  A puppy buyer can later on decide they no longer want/can't keep their own puppy for some reason and can rehome it still. Although if someone buys puppies with the sole intention to resell for profit they are then not a private owner they are a dealer and should be licenced (and as thus can't deal in puppies).

> So, is this massive UK price hike something which actually responsible UK breeders should get on board with?

Emphatically NO!!   What happens in America should have no bearing on what happens in the UK (although in most things, what's going on in the States does happen here within 5 years or so!).   When we bred, only for our next generation btw, we were happy to break even with a couple (or just one) nice puppy for the next generation.   I based my sale prices on what puppies in the breed were costing at the time.   And always regarded the home as way more important than income.   After all, if everything doing a litter amounted to was costed, we'd usually not break even!  But then we didn't rely on our breeding activities to keep us afloat!  By any means.

And incidentally, my friend breeds in America (Texas) and the going rate (same breed as our main breed) is way lower than here, even before the current prices.  She's a top breeder out there.  One thing that does surprise me, since we stopped breeding, is that in the day, a stud fee was the same as the price of one puppy.   Not so now as, again in my breed so it may not be the same in other breeds, the cost of a stud is a fraction of puppy prices.

I've already told the story about the breeder of our foundation bitch being almost caught out by people who were not what they appeared to be.   Had she not gone out to return something they'd left behind, goodness knows where that puppy would have ended up.

Hi everyone

I felt compelled to post on here for the first time as this is something I am grappling with at the moment. Firstly will add I am on a waiting list for a show bitch in my breed, from a breeder who health tests and goes to great efforts to maintain genetic diversity in what is quite. Small breed.

However, boot on the other foot my grandparents were breeders for many years and so I can see from both points of view.

From a breeder’s perspective (grandmother contributed here), breeding a litter comes with a variety of risks and unknowns. Breed a large and very healthy litter, excluding the outlay for equipment that you would treat as a long term investment, you may very well make a profit from pricing puppies at the “normal” market rate after the usual bet checks and high quality weaning diet. In my chosen breed and for the sake of arguments, we’ll say £1000. However, have a bitch with a c-section, lose puppies or have puppies needing hernia treatments or other, the magic gets smaller and smaller. But that should not mean corners are cut and you should have enough funds before the breeding to know you might potentially be sinking it all for the experience of raising a litter.

From a buyer’s perspective, and this is my opinion here, I lead a very savings and cost focused attitude to money. We are not big earners but are savvy and try to save for a rainy day. I’m glad we are because right now both our jobs are looking uncertain and at least I can rely on savings to cover our mortgage for a few months. That aside, I’m an experienced dog owner, I work part time and have waited to get another dog until I know we can commit to high quality feeding, insurance, other expenses and the time to properly look after a dog for potentially 15 years. However, why should I have to pay thousands (let’s say £2-3k) based on what is happening right now, plus all the initial outlay and vets bills? Because quite simply we will never be flush enough to have £3k just to give away on something. Does that mean I shouldn’t own the dog I have always wanted? Should I put myself in debt with getting a loan? I would really love to know how all these people have this kind of money to give away. And I’m sorry, you’re not telling me that a breeder making £30k on a litter is not profiteering in some way. What about transparent pricing that is actually based on a percentage of all the costs incurred plus a reasonable margin for time input? If that was the case I for one would be much happier to take a risk with a loan knowing it was the only option to achieving what I wanted. Really pleased this thread exists and was interested to read everyone’s thoughts on this. I hope we can get back to some normal. As for breeders questioning pricing for buyers, can they not create watertight contracts that maybe stipulate fines to be paid if the buyer does break the contract (trying to sell the puppy on for example)?

A lot of breeders have contracts of sale in place, I do with my pups, and all are endorsed (including my own).  I know a couple of my puppy owners from this last litter may breed on (two from the litter prior to this as well), so once the pups were old enough and I know the people really well who have them, then I lifted endorsements.  One is hoping to have a litter in Spring 2021, the other is looking at the possibility of stud dog work with her boy, but wants to see how he develops on before committing herself.  The other pups are too young yet and endorsements are still in place. 

I suppose if you look at your dogs in a commercial sense, then you are more likely to want to make more money, and if someone thinks they can charge more for pups then I'm sure they will.  But not everyone breeds to make money, nor do they breed necessarily to make a loss, but that's not to say they are depending on income to pay non-dog related bills, or even to cover all the dog related bills.  Even with a litter of six healthy pups unless you did choose to charge a premium price, you're probably not going to make anything.  I know with my last litter one puppy owner told me outright that I was a lot cheaper than other breeders, I was also a 5 hour journey away but it was more the health tests and everything else I put into the litter that made them want one of my pups, not just because I happened to be the cheapest.

I think there isn't really going to be much of a choice to be made, frankly.

You can say you don't like it etc etc blah... But prices are what they are. One person (or even a few people) cannot change what the going rate is for something.  You either sell your fully health tested optimally raised puppies for WAY below market value and way below what the going rate is... or you price them at the going rate at the moment.

The going rate may not go down again to what it was before, it may stay where it is... Historically once it goes up, it has never come down again. Although I accept the pandemic is a unique situation.

But we would then be in the very silly situation where puppy farmers and backyard breeders are selling pups for £3K and optimally bred litters are sold for £900-odd, which makes little sense. Frankly, I already think the situation is insane where crossbreds and cockerpoos and poo-everythings are sold for £3K - even when puppy-farmed and neutered at 6wks (sometimes) - whilst well bred KC reg pups are sold for £900.

I've read forums for donkeys years complaining about this and how ridiculous it is that people pay these prices and blah blah, but the fact is that it hasn't changed despite all the bitching and complaining. People keep paying that money for doodles. So now there is a chance for people to see their own pups valued for the same amount, they're going to turn their noses up and it and desire things to return to usual where doodles cost that much and nothing else does....??? Makes no sense to me. Value the work you do, don't undervalue it.

Lastly, perhaps increasing prices would see more people decide to rescue a dog instead of purchase a puppy from a breeder and we would see more dogs being rescued as a result.

> I've read forums for donkeys years complaining about this and how ridiculous it is that people pay these prices and blah blah, but the fact is that it hasn't changed despite all the bitching and complaining. People keep paying that money for doodles. So now there is a chance for people to see their own pups valued for the same amount, they're going to turn their noses up and it and desire things to return to usual where doodles cost that much and nothing else does

I can't speak for everyone but the people I know and myself it's was a case of that we felt that doodles were overpriced for what they are and priced our pups at what we felt a fair price. Not that we were unhappy our prices were not as high as the doodles. At the end of the day it's up to each breeder to decide what they feel is the right price for their litter and up to each buyer to decided if they feel that price is worth it or not.

although I imagine demand will drop again when everyone is back to work as the reason so many more what a puppy now is because they are home not at work. If the demarnd does drop and those breeder who don't agree with increasing their prices above what they felt was a fair price a few months ago start breeding again I would imagine that with less demand and lower prices on offer the very high priced litters will start taking longer to shift and affect their prices. Like it does with colour breeders, when a 'new' colour first comes out they are crazy high prices but as more and more start breeding them and the colour isn't as rare the prices start to come down again.
I know if I was a pet buyer and I didn't care what lines it came from and I saw two litters I liked with the same level care and health testing but one was £900 and the other £2000 is be going to the first or waiting for their next litter and save myself £1100. But that's just me.

How I, or anyone else, puts a price on their pups is, quite frankly, none of your business.  If you choose to increase prices because you feel you want to make more money, then go for it.  I don't give a fig what others are charging for their pups, I'll price them at what I think is a fair price regardless of the situation with Covid-19 or any other reason that might push 'normal' prices up.  Comparing prices to puppy farmers and bybs who charge an extortionate amount for some fancy cross breed isnt' a good example, I don't care what they're charging either, and I certainly don't want to make a living from what is essentially, a hobby.

Well said, Sleeping Lion. How the profiteering from Covid can be supported by anyone is utterly beyond me. Breeders should tot up all their receipts for the outlay from the stud fee onwards (as they have to do for tax purposes anyway), divide the total by the number of puppies in the litter (including any they choose to run on) then add on a mark-up (a maximum of 100% would be more than reasonable) to determine the price of the puppies for sale. That would be the businesslike way to do it, but hobby breeders are unlikely to charge as much, as they generally only had the litter to get a puppy for themselves anyway, so any financial profit would be seen as a lucky bonus.

>> I don't worry that any of them would sell a puppy on -which of course is now also illegal in England. <br />I thought this was the case but was told earlier today this doesn’t apply to owners only commercial sellers?

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That is my understanding of it as well. It's not easy to find the exact legislation but what I have found refers to licensed sellers selling on.

It's not about profiteering from Covid, it's about covid having been a precipitating force for bringing UK puppy prices more into line with what they are elsewhere in the world.

By the way, I had a litter last year - which were sold for £900 - and I have no more litters planned for another 4 years, so this is not about me somehow being a profiteering money-grabbing whatever. Although it's easier to have a knee jerk response like that than discuss the issues concerned calmly, I guess.

I've just looked at a currency convertor to see what the difference in price is for my breed compared to Australia and their average price is a few hundred pounds more than the average price here.

Need to see what the average price is in the USA and Canada to see if there is much difference there.

I'm sorry, but when you're dismissing other comments with blah, blah, blah responses, how do you hope to be taken as discussing something calmly?

>it's about covid having been a precipitating force for bringing UK puppy prices more into line with what they are elsewhere in the world.

But you're cherry-picking which countries you think our prices should be comparable to. In India, for example, a puppy of my breed would cost about £250 - about a quarter of the advised price in the UK. So in fact it could be argued that our pre-Covid prices are already far too high.

>You can say you don't like it etc etc blah...

Seriously?  This is 'dismissing others responses'?  Sorry, I'm outta here. What I wrote means 'and so on in the same vein' - and isn't dismissive at all.  I guess you could wilfully read it like that. But when this forum becomes vindictive and judgemental and holier than thou (happens on a load of different subjects), I just leave conversations (or don't join them if I wasn't in them to start with).

I thought we could have an interesting conversation considering some alternative ways of looking at the current predicament, but I see now that's not going to happen. It's going to be a fight where everyone wants to defend what they already think and no one wants to learn or think in new ways.  As I said - I'm done with this thread.

>But you're cherry-picking which countries you think our prices should be comparable to. In India, for example, a puppy of my breed would cost about £250 - about a quarter of the advised price in the UK.

No, you're doing the cherry-picking there. The US is a first world country, as is the UK. The cost of other goods is comparable broadly speaking between the two countries. Except for the price of well bred puppies, of course.

India is a third world country and prices for almost every item on the market are substantially less than in either the UK or US. It's only to be expected that puppies will be too.

Sorry not to be able to continue the discussion but I'm really not interested in this becoming a flaming war where people attack me for 'profiteering' and tell me to go off and charge what I like, when I'm merely trying to think about the current situation in a new way and I'm not talking about my own breeding practices at all.

It's really a difficult thing to step outside your current point of view and comfort zone and to question your long-held beliefs and assumptions.

Sorry, but your whole post comes across as a justification for increasing prices, not a discussion, and anyone who disagrees is treated with contempt.

The US is a first world country, as is the UK. The cost of other goods is comparable broadly speaking between the two countries. Except for the price of well bred puppies, of course.

And health care, which costs a small fortune. As does vet fees. Petrol and food is cheaper. The two countries are too different to compare.

Just as the current situation is temporary and life will eventually return to normal as it has after every other pandemic, so will unjustifiably high prices come down again, and the various breed members will remember who were the profiteers.

Whether or not prices will return to where they were before Covid 19 surely depends, as with most things, on supply and demand.   When things become 'rare' or scarce, they tend to cost more.   Whether people will buy into all this with puppy prices atm, is another matter.  For example who takes out a LOAN, to buy a puppy    Always remembering the buy in price is only the start.   And puppies coming from BYBs (not talking about mixes here) are unlikely to be coming from tested parents.   And then there's temperament!!

It's a pity we live in such a 'get it now' society.

Just my two penneth, but I'd like to see price caps on puppies.  Look at each breed, the health testing involved, make allowances for showing or otherwise proving the parents, and set a price for that breed.  Massive advertising campaign to get the word out so the public becomes aware and starts to scrutinise higher prices.  Or even just an across the board cap - no more than £500 per pup, for example, whatever the breed.

I know it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it's what I'd like in an ideal world.  A cap on adult dog prices, too, having seen a "pet trained" mali (no more special than sit, down, stay stuff) being advertised online for £4.5k for several weeks now!

> For example who takes out a LOAN, to buy a puppy

Totally agree, that's absolutely insane!

> By the way, I had a litter last year - which were sold for £900 -

Did you feel with you litter last year that your puppies were under priced? If you did why didn't you charge what You felt was the fair price for them then? If you didn't feel that then what's changed now to make your feel they would be worth more? (This is a genuine questions, not having a dig)

You seem to feel strongly about this about this which is fine although others will feel just as strongly the other way. I don't think it's a case of people not wanting to learn or thinking new ways just that the majority don't agree with you and are happy with their pre corvid prices for their puppies.

As some have mentioned above how does America's prices compare to other counties, are they simmer prices to say germany, France, Sweden, Canada ect or are American prices are higher/lower?

I recently commented on Facebook about the sudden increase in puppy prices. Of course my information only came from sites like pets 4 homes as breeders in my breed never ever advertise their price. Thankfully several breeders stated that their puppy prices have not and will not be affected. If that were to change, then my last puppy 3 years ago will be the end of my involvement with my breed after 47 years. I just could not afford to spend £2000 or more on a puppy and the very thought of taking out a bank loan to do so is ludicrous and never going to happen.

> As some have mentioned above how does America's prices compare to other counties, are they simmer prices to say germany, France, Sweden, Canada ect or are American prices are higher/lower?

Looking at a blog about Dobermans they have a post last year about  prices worldwide and it says the price charged in America is higher than the price in any country on the list.
https://dobermanblog.com/doberman-puppy-price-worldwide/

If this still holds true and is similar in most breeds I'd be asking if America is intact over charging for their puppies compared to the rest of the countries rather than if other countries are under charging.

In response to JeanGenie, my post referenced the fact that I would have to take out a loan to afford the current pricing and my fear if that remains, as you do have to consider the other up front costs on top of vets, equipment, insurance, etc. We are not a high income family and taking out a loan to factor in against the other monthly costs would be the only way we could afford a dog. What is wrong with that? Sorry but we don’t all have £3k+ to just give away without jeopardising our emergency cover finances.

I don't think it was a criticism of you personally, more just a reflection of how crazy it is that people are having to consider doing this even to be able to afford a puppy, which, a few months ago was within their price range.

> my post referenced the fact that I would have to take out a loan to afford the current pricing and my fear if that remains, as you do have to consider the other up front costs on top of vets, equipment, insurance, etc. We are not a high income family and taking out a loan to factor in against the other monthly costs would be the only way we could afford a dog. What is wrong with that?

This isn't at all meant to be nasty, but if you need to take out a loan to buy one, now is not the right time to get one. Better to wait until after the current insanity has died down and get one when prices have returned to normal. There's no hurry, after all.

> taking out a loan to factor in against the other monthly costs would be the only way we could afford a dog. What is wrong with that?

Not the only way at all!  Adopting from a rescue instead would give you many dogs to choose from at a fraction of the current price of a puppy from a breeder, and most rescues get pups in too.  So a loan isn't the only option for finding a new family member.

And looking back at my own dogs, I've had 17 in all and only two cost anything.  My last puppy was free.

Do you consider fuelling the "fire"of severe overpricing by breeders lacking morals & who breed for profit a good reason for putting yourself into debt, because buying a puppy of a certain breed/crossbreed is so important to you & your family ?

I despair at the logic of the general public, whose want this/must have now is making money for unscrupulous greedy breeders , who do the minimum to make their puppies sellable.

I currently have 3 dogs. I would love a puppy, but am not willing to pay the silly prices being asked & any rescue would come from the same rescue one of my boys comes from & at the moment they are not adopting out any dogs. So I will wait.

Not going to comment further on what I thought started as an informative thread. I’m on a waiting list for a breed my family has owned for a very long time, it would be very unusual to find them in rescue. There is a breed rescue but as I have a young daughter I’m nervous about an older dog without history of what triggers might unexplainably cause fear agression or other undesirable issues you wouldn’t want around a child. At least with a puppy I know. My original point was that if the prices go up to the levels seen elsewhere across every breed then I won’t be able to afford a puppy without getting a loan out. Not that I am taking a loan out to buy a dog because I want one this month. Perhaps I am reading some of these replies incorrectly but they appear belittling so at this point I’m sorry to have to leave the thread before any further misunderstanding on my part.

>There is a breed rescue but as I have a young daughter I’m nervous about an older dog without history of what triggers might unexplainably cause fear agression or other undesirable issues you wouldn’t want around a child. At least with a puppy I know.

People involved in welfare for several breeds are reporting that there are puppies bought on  a Covid-whim already coming into rescue as the 'thoughtful' owners go back to work and haven't time for the pup any more. So it's worth getting your name on the list for your breed rescue societies because you just might strike lucky very soon.

> So it's worth getting your name on the list for your breed rescue societies because you just might strike lucky very soon.

I hope so because so far, zilch.

It’s great we can share our opinions without getting personal. I spoke to a specialist reproduction vet recently about ethical breeding and he said ‘just because people shout the loudest does not make them right’. Thank you for starting this thread onetwothreefour :) It’s definitely made me think about pricing as it’s not something I generally think about if I have not got a litter planned. Even then, I don’t think about pricing until the pups are at weaning stage.

I was initially surprised about the cost of a puppy for my breed since the pandemic. However, I noticed Champ Dogs now has a ‘Historical Puppy Price’ guide on the bottom of their breed prices and realised I’d been undercharging - the figures have been steadily increasing. I’d be interested to know how they calculate these figures.

A few months ago, my bitch lost her full litter following a C-section. Someone mentioned a fair way of costing it to add the total cost of everything bought for the litter and dividing by the number of puppies. The total cost was 4,500 and she had three puppies. So that would be well over what Champ Dogs recommends, but considered a fair way to do things by some?

Pricing is so subjective, I don’t think think there’s a clear ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. I think it’s down to personal choice and preference - what is ‘fair’? You could have found the perfect new owner but they cannot afford the price you have asked - I know I would make allowances just for a piece of mind that the puppy has gone to the right home. I also have had buyers who have come back to me after having bought one from me previously and I have not charged them because I know the puppy is going to a good home and it saves my time doing the checks. Apart from a Poodle, I personally would not pay much for any other type of dog with ‘oodle’ in it. However, I'm aware there are lots out there who do not mind paying high prices for something with 'oodle' in it, just like people were paying high prices for some bull breeds a few years ago. When I’m thinking about the pricing of my puppies I take into account whether I would personally pay the amount I am asking.

Personally, I think the more I can educate prospective puppy owners to do their research to finding a breeder they can invest in (i.e. not someone who just fancied wanted a cute puppy from their bitch) and go to for support, the more I can try and stop people from being ripped off. As a KC Assured Breeder, the first thing I always tell people is to contact the breed clubs if they’ve got my details from the KC website. I brief them about the positives of buying from a breeder who breeds for type, works or shows their dogs, highlight the importance of health testing, encourage them to ask the breeder why they are breeding puppies and promote the importance of choosing a breeder they feel they can or have built a positive relationship with. Those that phone up and ask me if I have any puppies and the price, well I'm sorry... they've clearly not done their research and are likely looking for a 'lockdown puppy' so I refuse to spend time talking to them. For some context, I have only had one of those calls in the past recent months of increased enquiries and their details have been passed on to others in the breed.

Now that I have seen the work involved in responsible breeding, I agree our prices are ridiculously cheap. I paid £700 for my dog a few years ago.

I think £2000 is actually a realistic reflection
of the time and effort to do this properly. I am exhausted!

That's me out. After 47 years in my breed, always buying, never breeding, I simply don't have that sort of money available to buy another puppy. So it's over for me.

If I put in the cost of researching pedigrees, time involved in talking to stud dog owners and etc, etc, then yep, I could probably say I need to charge into the £000's, but it's not a business to me.