Hi
I’m looking for advice on optimal time to breed. I brought my bitch to the stud on day 10, now it’s day 12. The stud isn’t interested in her at all. She’s still bleeding and there has been no change In colour or type of blood . My butch is 2 the sire is 5 and it is first time for both of them. Am I too late and she ovulated before day 10, or am I too early yet. Any advice would be appreciated as I’m new to this.

Many thanks

You should be progesterone testing to see when is the best time to mate as it will show ovulation. Do you have a mentor? Isn't the stud owner offering advice?

Thanks for your reply
The vet didn’t have the test available at the time and I had to leave for the 4 hour drive for stud. She was there at day 10. The stud is showing zero interest and this is the beginning of the third day, they’ve had 2 full days and no signs at all. Is it still worthwhile to get treat done?
Thanks

To be honest, I've only used progesterone testing for one litter, and it took five tests, and unfortunately, because of the timing over the weekend, she nearly went over.  Cost me a fortune and we never got a proper tie, but thankfully she did take. 

The next litter, I chatted with the stud dog owner who has used a method called ferning, where a sample of the bitches saliva is examined under a microscope.  Much to my amazement a pattern did appear, which looks like exponential ferns starting to form.  We got two successful ties, and on a third visit (on the advice of the stud dog owner), although we could possibly have got another mating, my bitch wasn't keen, and the fern pattern had completely broken down so we left it at that.

I think you are probably too early rather than too late.  Many bitches aren't ready until later than this.  I would continue to put them together daily and see what happens, but don't leave them together all day - it will help if there is some excitement and novelty when they meet each other, and if they are together 24/7 they might just habituate to each other a bit...  So separate them when you're not watching and continue to try daily. 

>I chatted with the stud dog owner who has used a method called ferning, where a sample of the bitches saliva is examined under a microscope.  Much to my amazement a pattern did appear, which looks like exponential ferns starting to form. 

Ferning is not a reliable way to predict ovulation and isn't supported by any science.  Progesterone testing is the most reliable way but requires testing until you get an 'ovulation occurred' result to be most reliable.  And cytology (vaginal swabs) can tell you when a bitch is in estrus, which is the part of the her season when she ovulates - but can't pinpoint exactly when during estrus she ovulates.  Still, it narrows down the breeding window some.

"Ferning is not a reliable way to predict ovulation and isn't supported by any science.  Progesterone testing is the most reliable way but requires testing until you get an 'ovulation occurred' result to be most reliable.  And cytology (vaginal swabs) can tell you when a bitch is in estrus, which is the part of the her season when she ovulates - but can't pinpoint exactly when during estrus she ovulates.  Still, it narrows down the breeding window some."

It might not be a proven scientific method, but having seen it then I can attest to being quite amazed by the images, progressing from tiny little bits of what appear to be ferns, to a whole slide full of ferns, and it did coincide with her being receptive. 

It's just down to bad luck probably with the progesterone testing, and I admit I really don't understand the figures very well so was relying entirely on the guy at Idexx, but was disappointed after testing five times that I was almost too late to have her mated just because of the timings over the weekend.  But then I've only had three litters in total, so have a very limited experience, hence me admitting my own bias.

Thanks for your reply. I’ll definitely go testing next spring if I’m too late this time. I’ve read up on it and I should have been testing her levels early in the cycle to get accurate results.
Thanks for helping ☺️

I had heard about fearning but didn’t know that’s what it was called.
The 2 dogs are 4 hours drive from me , I think the dogs are together quite a bit so may I’ll suggest tonight for them to be separated fora but. I know they are getting on great like friends apparently so that doesn’t sound like they are flirting.

Thanks for all your advice

I'd bet anything that you are way too early.  Don't give up!  The interest a male demonstrates can rocket from zero to one thousand in a split second.  Give it a chance still.  My females have always been at their "hottest" between days 14 and 17, no matter the progesterone values.  The boys know better.

I agree, I used to have the testing kit for that and found it very useful. Might even have to invest in another now I've been reminded!

hi @Nimue

Thanks for your reply
I’m going to be patient and stay positive. Today is day 13 since the first day of bleeding. Last night she was doing some mild flirting- she was raising her backside in towards his head, but that’s about it. Do you think that could be a sign.
Thanks for your valued advice

Hi @ lucydogs

Thanks for your reply
I think next year I’ll go with the testing as back up.
Fingers crossed I started too early.
I’ve rang the stud owner and suggested separating for a good few hours, hopefully something changes with these 2 inexperienced dogs

I have had bitches and now have a stud dog, in my experience most people bring their bitches too early as they don't want to miss their chance, if your bitch is not "standing" with her tail held to one side when the dog approaches and sniffs her then she is probably not ready. The amount of blood or colour does not appear to be indicative of the time of maximum receptivity, often bitches will carry on bleeding well after mating and go on to have a successful pregnancy.  It may be that as the dog is 5 and not experienced he could have been discouraged from being interested in bitches and most breeders would probably not use a maiden bitch as his first, just give them some time and if possible let the bitch stay with the stud owner until she has finished the season.

It's a good sign she is getting there.  Is the stud dog experienced?  An experienced stud will often know instantly if the time is right and go from zero interest to leaping on.... But even when they are inexperienced, some dogs just seem to know.

Hey
So this Arvo my bitch is flagging and standing. I got the stud owners to separate the dogs and now there stud is crying to get back to her. He still hasn’t mounted. So from your experience when is the crucial days for managing mating as I’m not keeping them together all the time. Yes my dog is happy and content to stay at the studs house and they are happy to have her there too.
Thanks

Have they ever owned a stud dog before?

Give them more time. Even a novice stud usually gets the idea. Just because she is standing doesn't mean she is ready, though no doubt she is close. I've mated a bitch here on days 19 and 21--she'd been brought over from the Netherlands to my dog on day 12 and she wasn't anywhere close. The travel didn't help, the owner couldn't stay and she left the bitch with me. I think it knocked her back in her cycle. My vet was sceptical about her having a litter with such late dates, but she went on to produce a litter of 7.

It sounds to me like they are close.  I don't want to worry you, but I've had bad experiences with inexperienced stud dogs in the past (using an experienced bitch).  One dog just wouldn't mount her at all, even though she was in standing heat and sticking her bum in his face and flagging.  He would lick her and be interested, but he just lacked the courage or whatever is needed to mount and do the deed. We didn't get any matings and we couldn't travel to another stud on that breeding, so that was that.

Next season, we used a different and experienced stud and no probs.

So - sometimes males just don't get it. It can sometimes be because owners have told them off for mounting things in the past (including furniture or other dogs) so they are just afraid to do it.  Or it can be because they have tried to mount other dogs and been told off for it by the dog - and are now too scared of that happening again. And sometimes it can be because a dog hasn't done the deed whilst still relatively young and just has no clue such a thing is possible.  (Although dogs have bred for the first time in old age, so it's not impossible.)

If you can get him to be playful and excited generally, it might help.  See if he wants to play tug, or push him gently and see if you can get him riled up.  Often enthusiastic play will spill over into mounting.  Give them space to play chase games around the garden rather than keeping them in a small room... think about the wider sense of the word 'arousal' and see if you can generate some of that!  But if he won't mount there's not much you can do unless you AI and it's probably best not to pass on genes of a dog which can't reproduce naturally to be honest...

It's not always easy with a novice dog, to be sure, especially if they'e been told off for mounting in the past. I realise some breeders prefer to keep both bitch and dog on leads and there is no real social contact. I'll just say that my dogs prefer to have a bit of freedom and it's less stressful for them--I'm always on hand to turn him around and steady them both as soon as they've tied.

I would agree with allowing them to try out in the garden although maiden bitches can be very put off as soon as the dog tries to penetrate, they can and do leap forwards, sideways or sit down as it's all new to them, I usually hold the bitch gently and reassure her until the tie is achieved. A novice dog can be put off by someone holding the bitch but plenty of encouragement that he is a good boy and that's what we want can be helpful, occasionally though a dog is just clueless, let's hope for a result in the next few days.

Hi I live in Liverpool I have a beautiful bitch 2yrs old. I have never bread dogs before I am wondering if anyone can help to get my dog a mate for she is so adorable, she is so active and healthy and very playful, thanks Karen  x

I don't know where to begin when people post things like this.

I think this could be easier to answer with a checklist.

1. Is your bitch fully KC Registered, and the registration transferred into your name?
2. Has your bitch had the current package of dna tests which are recommended for Beagles - MLS, NCCD, IGS, Factor VII and Lafora?
3. Did your bitch come from a reputable breeder? If so, your girl's breeder should be your first source of information.
4. Do you have an experienced person who would be prepared to guide you through the entire process? I don't want to sound dramatic but if you can't pick up on potential problems, and you haven't a mentor to turn to, your bitch or her puppies could be at risk.
5. I'm sure she is beautiful, but no dog is perfect. Do you have enough knowledge of her breeding to select a complementary stud dog? This is where a knowledgeable breeder would be able to help you.
6. Are you prepared to put your present lifestyle on hold for approximately three months? There will be times when you need to be with her 24/7.
7. Do you have the facilities to rear a potentially large, high-energy litter?

I'm sure there must be things I have missed out, and others will raise, but not a project to enter without a lot of planning.

Oh yes my dog all registered and thanks for your negativity and really arrogant reply. We all start out.

I did not intend to be arrogant - just to provide information for anyone considering breeding for the first time. I am sorry if I have upset you.

A very helpful post CaroleC. And kind of you to take the time to post all of this.
I really hope it is appreciated.

I have thought of having a litter with my young girl. She’s 2, nearly three. She has done quite well in the show ring and we’ve had some but not all of the health tests done. What really puts me off however is the thought that something awful could happen and I lose her. I honestly don’t think I could bear it.

I hope that wasna reply to  Carole c? She has given u a very helpful and straightforward list if things to consider as a first time breeder
Yes everyone starts some where but knowing what u need to be thinking about is incredibly necessary
Having a litter is a big undertaking as well as risk to your bitch
It is also potentially an expensive time especially if things don't  go to plan .
I would take.the information in the light it was given as a help

Does your bitch come from a minimum of 5 generations of hip scored dogs & are her parents hip & elbow scored & is she hip & elbow scored ?

It was always thought that hip & elbow dysplasia were rare in your bitches breed, however the conditions have been found in many of the dogs in her breed & clinical hip & ellbow examination are now recommended

Have you got a waiting for her puppies ?

That last line should be

Have you a waiting list of people wanting a puppy from her ?

She may be registered but are there any endorsments on her papers?

I meant what I said - I don't know where to begin. The humongous task of helping someone see the situation from a very different perspective seems unachievable and when you do attempt it (as Carole C has done), it never works and just gets thrown back in your face when the person reacts defensively.

Perhaps all we can do is model by example. These people are going to breed whatever we say. They are not people who will listen if told explicitly and directly, but if they see the care and procedures followed by responsible breeders, some of it may - just may - at some point filter through...

First time breeding.
Hi everyone, looking for some advice. I have a proven stud dog  and a 3 year old bitch.
This year for the first time I want to breed them together.
She is only on day 7 at the moment. From previous seasons I think her best days are 14-16.
My stud is very experienced and with visiting bitches he knows instantly when they are ready and won’t mate them if they are not.
Should I separate my two for a few days so when she is ready he is more keen.?
I’m worried because they live together and for the past 2 years we have told him NO when he’s tried to mount her. I could send her to my dads for a few days and bring her back for the mating.
Or do you think because he is experienced he will be ok.?

You might do better to start your own thread as it .may get lost in an old one

Sorry, didn’t realise I’d added it onto an existing thread

No worries happens all.the time

I would separate them. But try them from about day 10, daily, until you get a breeding.