Ok.... I'm hoping for some constructive comments from some of the experts on here, so here goes....
We have been looking for a pup for quite some time (so not a lockdown pup !) we already have 2 small dogs but I have been yearning for a larger one as I lost my Labrador some years ago and still miss having a bigger dog in our household. My son is also looking for the same breed as me and as his children are now older we felt that it would be perfect to have pups from the same breeder as they could socialise and grow up together.  Fast forward to 6 weeks ago, we had been messaging breeders on the Kennel club site (as we assumed this would ensure reliability and professionalism)Most breeders had no availability and the ones that did were charging £2000 +, however one breeder messaged to say she had a litter due on 22nd May and that they would not be KC registered and would this be a problem (reason for not registered was that the Sire was not a KC registered dog therefore pups would not be registered). We agreed this is not important to us as the pups would be family dogs not show or working dogs. £50 deposit was made to register our interest with a further £50 to be paid when the pups were born (and hopefully lockdown would be lifted so we could view and choose the pup) and the balance of £650 would be paid on collection, photos of mum and dad were seen. 2 weeks later we emailed for an update on mum and the reply stated she had been to the vets that day and breeder had been told the pups were much smaller than expected and the due date was now 8th June but pups looked well on the scan. Our names, phone numbers and addresses were requested for chipping and we gave them. We emailed on 30th May to ask how mum was and were told '' doing well but struggling with the heat''.
On the due date 8th June we have received an email to say '' Sorry our girl gave birth yesterday and all pups were stillborn, please send me your details so I can refund your deposit, I am so sorry''.
We are devastated, but have some niggling doubts as the breeders name and details have suddenly dissapeared off the Kennel club site, we have had no repy to our email asking what happened either. My concern is that this person has our names and addresses which were given for chipping, so would you consider it completely legit to give our sort code and acc number for the refund in light of that ??
How often does a dog have a complete litter stillborn on the due date ?? I'm a ''human'' midwife so am fully au fait with possible causes of stillbirths but wondering if it is usual for a whole litter to be stillborn ?
P.S. The breeder is registered on this site also - so should this fact ensure reliability and does this protect from scammers ?
Please do not think that I am labelling this breeder as a scammer but I am so unsure now as this has never happened to me before so I am on unknown territory.

Yes it happens that whole litters are either reabsorbed or born stillborn. It's also not surprising that the breeders details are no longer on the puppy register, as they no longer have puppies to offer. The breeder is probably devastated and can't bring themselves to reply to every single interested party wanting to know what happened, and they're doing the right thing offering you a refund immediately. 

The 'dodgy' parts of the tale for me are, why are they using an unregistered sire, why take deposits before a litter is even born and how could there be such a difference in due dates, sounds like maybe there were two possible litters?

So they maybe weren't the best breeder to choose, using an unregistered sire, but they sound ok in offering a refund. At the end of the day lots of people, retailers, online and phone shopping get all our card details or bank details and address, they can't really do anything with it unless they are master criminals, and then the banks would refund you any money stolen, so just give the breeder your details for a refund.

Edited to say the breeder gave you her sort code and account number, and you would either have the address or get it to visit puppies, she wasn't worried you would scam her

Thank you so much for your comments. Makes sense, I know they will be devastated. It's perhaps the wrong time at present to do the 'lets get a dog' thing as with so many scammers around (on the internet mainly) it makes usually sensible people so suspicious. I would be so hurt if I though someone had those thoughts about me but I'm afraid these are the times we now live in !
Thank you again - you've reassured me that I was being ungenerous and unfeeling when they are probaby so upset and comforting a grieveing mum dog. Kind Regards and Stay Safe :)

I'm just going to post about KC registration, you say that it's not important to you, but usually, when pups aren't KC registered this means breeders are cutting corners, it's rare for non-KC registered dogs to have health tests in place, it does happen, but a lot less frequently than with KC registered litters.  So KC registration is important, it means you can look at the health of the parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc, etc, and there's a lot more information available about the health of pups from KC registered parents.  Most people don't want to show or work their dogs, so a lot of pups do go as pets, but to me, a companion animal has the most important role overall, showing and working a dog is nice, but the best homes are the most important thing to a good breeder, and breeding pups that have the odds stacked in their favour of being happy, healthy with good temperament and healthy conformation is what any good breeder does.

we had been messaging breeders on the Kennel club site

Presumably that means Assured Breeders? (As other breeders can only advertise pups once they have been registered.) If so it goes against ABS rules to breed from an unregistered parent. So maybe that's why they vanished -somebody reported them perhaps.

I see you mention you aren't worried about kc reg bit with it you can see the whole lineage and see health tests and know if they are related in any way. Non kc reg this could be brother and sister being mated.
Also I don't know many breeders who sell unregistered puppies and have health tested both parents, health testing is vital especially in Labs. You have hip and elbow scoring, eye testing and all the DNA tests as well. This is all very different to vet checked, they aren't the same thing.

Are you sure this is still the case?  I can think of ABS breeders who breed cross breeds and then breed on from their progeny, and, although this wasn't allowed when the ABS was initially formed, the rules changed and this is now allowed.

Yes it's not as good as it was, but:

2) In  order  to  be  eligible  for  Scheme  membership  and  to  remain  an  Assured  Breeder, applicants/members must: 2.1)  Ensure  all  breeding  stock  and  puppies  are  recorded  or  registered  in  the United Kingdom with a registration organisation recognised by the Kennel Club. Such organisations must be compliant with British Standard ISO 9001 and must make available  record  of  parentage  or  lineage,  including  a  coefficient  of  inbreeding,  to  a minimum of 3 generations, and a record of health screening test results, or the record of a DNA homozygosity test where it can be demonstrated this this is able to support or fulfil the above requirements.G2.9Registration may be with the Kennel Club on its Breed Register or Activity Register. The Scheme recognises good breeding practice and registration with other bodies is acceptable providing they fulfil the above requirements.

Yes but it doesn't state they have to be KC registered.  I'm sure there will be loopholes that are being used.

Well there are a few things to say about this...

>we felt that it would be perfect to have pups from the same breeder as they could socialise and grow up together.

I wouldn't really recommend it, to be honest. What happens when siblings spend a lot of time together (or really any two puppies of about the same age), is exactly what happens when people buy two puppies at once - the risk of littermate syndrome. This manifests in various ways depending on the circumstances, but with 2 Labs together I would foresee a lot of rough play, a lot of puppies getting excessively into 'using' another dog as that source of play (regardless of what the other dog wants) and losing focus on you as the handler. If you put them on leash to stop the play, then you have 2 frustrated puppies that just want to continue slobbering on each other's necks until their tongues touch the ground. Much better for you to get pups with some age difference really... That way they can bond with you, their people, and look to you for fun and reinforcers and not learn that other dogs are the bomb.

>they would not be KC registered and would this be a problem (reason for not registered was that the Sire was not a KC registered dog therefore pups would not be registered). We agreed this is not important to us as the pups would be family dogs not show or working dogs.

You haven't mentioned anything about health testing. If the dog is KC registered, you can verify health test results using the KC's website. If you are just relying on what the breeder says, they can easily tell porkies. And you'd be wondering - why is the sire not KC registered? Most people will KC register a dog if they can, so the only reason would be:His mum was older than 8yo when she had the pups. The sire is too inbred (ie the result of incredibly close in-breeding - brother sister, for eg). Or he's not even a pedigree. You have no proof the dog is even a Labrador! Perhaps the bitch got caught by an unknown dog, and the stud looks like a Lab - but maybe the pups he throws won't look like Labs... That's how genetics works.

Frankly if you care enough about a breed to specifically want that breed, then be sure to get a KC registered dog - otherwise you might be getting anything. Don't just lower your standards to get a pup - any pup - right now during the coronavirus when things have gone crazy. You're going to own this dog for upwards of 12 years...

£750 is pretty expensive for a potentially crossbred dog which could be anything, to be honest...

>We are devastated, but have some niggling doubts as the breeders name and details have suddenly dissapeared off the Kennel club site, we have had no repy to our email asking what happened either.

I'm sure you're aware of the demand for puppies at the moment. If a breeder has just lost an entire litter they will be devastated and the last thing they want is to be fielding endless calls from the public asking if they have any puppies...

But I'm not really sure why a breeder listed on the KC website would be advertising a litter with a non-KC registered dog as sire, to be honest?

As for what happened - they died or were born dead. What more do you need to know? I'm not sure why you think this is suspicious. It is awful and traumatic to whelp an entire litter of dead puppies and then have the bitch grieving for them as well, full of milk - the last thing they are going to want to do is to relive what happened over and over to explain it to people on their puppy list. 

>My concern is that this person has our names and addresses which were given for chipping, so would you consider it completely legit to give our sort code and acc number for the refund in light of that ??

What do you think they are going to do with your name and address? I think you'd be surprised to know how easily it is to get hold of someone's name and address - most of them are there in the phone book or online for the looking! No one can do anything with your sort and account number other than give you money, which presumably is what you want?

>How often does a dog have a complete litter stillborn on the due date ?? I'm a ''human'' midwife so am fully au fait with possible causes of stillbirths but wondering if it is usual for a whole litter to be stillborn ?

Yes, very possible. If the first puppy out blocked the exit route and vet help wasn't sought fast enough, the rest of the puppies will die before they can get out. If a bitch goes into inertia there are no external signs and everything looks fine - but the pups are all dead because she went over.

You seem to be looking for someone to blame when there is no one to blame and the breeder has traumatically lost a litter of puppies and wants to move on and draw a line under things as quickly as possible, being very responsible in seeking to return deposits.

Thanks for the detailed reply. 
I want to respond to make it clear that I am in no way looking to appoint blame to anyone. I am sure that there would be a deep sense of loss for any pet owner to lose even one pup never mind a whole litter and to have to comfort the mother through the loss so hard to do, and my post should not detract from their loss. However please understand that posting my scenario was an attempt to ask questions of an experienced forum of experts in this field of breeding, something which I and lots of other pet owners know nothing about. For example I know very little about KC registration, the same as I know little about the kite mark on my kitchen appliances however I do know if it is on the appliance I can trust it's reliability without knowing what stringent tests it went through to get it ! Who knew KC was about health testing.. not me ! The last 2 labs I owned I didn't have  health checked so again not something I was aware of (both lived healthy long lives so I suppose we were lucky )
Over the past 35 years I have owned sibling dogs without problems so assumed this would be OK and would never have thought about googling it as I have never heard of littermate syndrome, so thank you for pointing that out as it is now something to consider in the future.
Our last Labrador cost £450 just over 20 years ago (non KC registered)so again I assumed that £750 was probably about the right inflation price considering we had seen lots of other breeders selling for about 1200 + with KC registration. So I can assure you my standards have not lowered during "lockdown".
I also need to make it clear that this breeder was not advertising the non registered pups on the KC site, they were just listed as registered breeders and I had emailed quite a few to see if we could be considered for the waiting lists for future litters when she replied to say she was expecting a litter which would not be registered due to the Sire not being a registered dog. I would probably imagine like you say it was not an intended pregnancy.
The fact I'm a midwife should also indicate that whilst I know an enormous amount about human pregnancy and the complications that can arise and the possible solutions to these I know absolutely Jack about canine pregnancy,  I even had to Google how long a canine gestation was ! Humans have an enormous amount of antenatal input during pregnancy to hopefully avoid stillbirth occurance,  So again I was looking for expert opinion about the occurance of stillbirth in dogs as not being breeder it is not an area I am familiar with. I am sure if I berated any of my patients for not knowing the anatomy and physiology of their pregnancy I would soon be stripped of my registration and fired !
We are certainly not "lockdown " puppy searchers and I am sorry if it appeared that way. Like the majority of the Country the Covid19 pandemic has just happened to hit us at an unfortunate time. We are fortunate to be families that are able to work agile at home and have done so for many years, not just during lockdown.
With regards to deposits paid and details being given , unfortunately we do live in a society that includes sophisticated methods of scams. Once again not my area of expertise but I have read of many usually intelligent people being taken in by seemingly innocent and realistic looking situations so forgive me if I am cautious, as £50 may be a relatively small amount of money as a deposit, but times this by 100 which seems to be the average amount of messages a breeder can receive from a prospective buyer and suddenly there is a lot of money to be made by potential scammers.
Please note I am not labelling this breeder as a scammer I am just cautious. Our contact with them has been sympathetic and compassionate and I have not specifically asked for details from them.
Lessons  learned ? Yes !
1. Research more about canine pregnancy and birth (who knew it was so complicated buying a puppy ?!)
2. Try not to inadvertently offend experts on a forum !

I think it’s very sensible to ask the questions, if you don’t ask you never find out!!

Welcome to the forum. You will get all kinds of responses at times and I think at the moment some members seem to be suffering from lockdown puppy overdrive . Never be concerned about asking questions otherwise one can never learn. You are also quite right to be cautious as yes there are new scams daily and without questioning things people are taken in sometime heart breakingly so. Buying a puppy from a reputable breeder can be a minefield at the best of times even more so at the moment with many less than reputable people seeing puppies as a gold mine charging inflated prices for poorly bred and sometimes ill puppies. I don't think this breeder was such a person although I do wonder about health test from an unregistered sire.
  I would suggest contacting the breed clubs who will have puppy co-ordinators or lists of breeders that abide by their code of conduct and do the health tests required for the breed. Good luck in your search however the best out come for you at present maybe finding a good breeder and being prepared to wait for a liitter.

> However please understand that posting my scenario was an attempt to ask questions of an experienced forum of experts in this field of breeding, something which I and lots of other pet owners know nothing about. For example I know very little about KC registration, the same as I know little about the kite mark on my kitchen appliances however I do know if it is on the appliance I can trust it's reliability without knowing what stringent tests it went through to get it ! Who knew KC was about health testing.. not me ! The last 2 labs I owned I didn't have  health checked so again not something I was aware of (both lived healthy long lives so I suppose we were lucky )

It's always good it ask questions when your not sure. I think what many are trying to say is not to assume that because a dog is kc registered that you can trust it is well bred (unlike the kettle on your example) as there many irresponsible breeders who also kc register their litters. Sadly many let owners not familiar with breeding make that mistake and buy from one of these breeders thinking the kc reg means well bred then find out later when the pup develops a problem that the parents were not tested for it.
For labs you want both parents hip scored, elbow scored and eye tested as a must, the breeder should have proof of the tests and if you get the parents kc names u can use the I'd health test finder to check. DNA test for PRA is also recommended, there are also other tests advaible for the breed. You can read about them below

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=2048

Good luck in finding your next dog.

Definitely not offended, everyone has to start somewhere - but there is so much more research you need to do to ensure you get a healthy and well-bred dog besides just buying a KC registered dog. (Or even in this case a non-KC registered dog!)

I know it probably doesn't feel like it right now but you've actually probably had a lucky escape.  Most people go into looking for a puppy without doing research before hand about the best way to find a healthy pup of good temperament. Very often that leads to big vet and behaviourist bills, surrendered dogs and a regret whenever you think about the fate of the dam and siblings of your dog. I always think that talking to breeders is just the tip of an iceberg of research that needs to be done that you just don't think of at first - but which you yourself now have got time for.  It is actually a really enjoyable part of looking for a pup and means you can go into decision making with confidence in the end. 

Like everyone else has said, you need to understand what the health tests for Labs need to be and why - start with looking at a video of a dog with Hip or elbow Displasia and you'll quickly understand why each of these tests is considered compulsory before buying from this breed. 

Then take a look at the variety of Labs out there.  Chances are you have an image in your mind of what your Lab is going to look and be like.  The thing is, Lab pups all start out looking much the same but they grow up to a wide variation from lean to stocky, petite to huge, high working drive to laid back.  If you know what it is you are looking for you will start to go in the direction of working lines, show lines or dual purpose lines and your search narrows.  Don't be fooled by the idea that 'I only am looking for pet lines' means that a 'pet' breeder has carefully bred to produce an easy going, solid temperament dog perfect as a family pet.  Sometimes you'll get lucky and find one that does but other times it's just a way that the breeder gets to produce litters from dogs that have not undergone any breed expert, independent scrutiny that they would have done in the show, gundog, therapy or obedience world.  Look for breeders who can tell you what their previous litters have gone on to do.

Avoiding being KC registered is another huge red flag.  KC registered is not perfect by any means but it attempts to ensure that a bitch is not bred too many times in her life at least and that buyers have a chance to assess the health scores and COI of dogs from that line using MyKC.  The problem with un KC registered is that the poor bitch could be being made to have back to back litters her whole life and then offloaded.  There's an ethical consideration to buying KC registered in that regard. 

People on this forum could go on all day about this subject of ethically and astutely finding the right pup and genuinely love to help new people to avoid the pitfalls so please do feel free to continue asking questions and finding out more things on this journey to your new family member.  Good luck!

Well it's confirmed the breeder of the pups from my original post is definately a Scammer and a very convincing one at that ! I've been talking to another 'victim' of the same scammer who is also aware of several others who have also lost money and been left heartbroken by this vile person. She has used many different email addresses and phone numbers to communicate with people throughout the scamming, so is pretty well set up as a thief. The Breeder/Scammer (and I use the term Breeder very loosely with this person) is still registered on this site. How do I report them to the site owners ? is there and admin ? and does anyone know how I report it to the KC as I originally got her contact details from their site ?

>we had been messaging breeders on the Kennel club site (as we assumed this would ensure reliability and professionalism)

Please contact admin@champdogs.co.uk

I would ring the kc direct and ask them how you should proceed as well as contacting admin here.
Trading standards ?
Is it a police matter ( fraud ) ?
Tread carefully as you dont want to be accused of anything or it can become very messy