My oldie, now 14, arthritic, and a bit tottery, is seeing the vet tomorrow to start his second course of cartrophen injections. This coincides with his health check, and also I was sent a reminder for the three-yearly vaccinations. I have turned down the main vaccinations on account of his age.

But I’m wondering about leptospirosis vaccine - should he have it? He has had it up to now. I was thinking not, but my concern is that I think there are rats about (not seen by me, but one neighbour keeps chickens; another has bird feeders next to my fence and my younger dog thinks there’s something holey worth investigating along there).

The leptospirosis vaccination is the one with most recorded adverse reactions, particularly L4.  If you were to have it, I'd suggest going for the previous version, L2.  But personally it's one I don't bother with, much to the consternation of my vet.  The vaccination itself isn't effective for a full 12 months, can be effective for as little as 3 months, and doesn't necessarily prevent a dog from catching a different strain of leptospirosis.  There are always rats about, I have chickens and see signs of them in my garden, and the local cats certainly leave a fair few bits of corpses around.  I have a 14 1/2 year old Labrador and I don't vaccinate her now, haven't done for a number of years.  It is though, one of those things you have to weigh up yourself, different areas pose different risks, and, although I have chickens and there are rats, my dogs don't go in my garden, they get walked on the fields locally until livestock is put out, and then I walk them in an area where there is no livestock.

Thank you. My dogs use the garden, especially the oldie who finds walks unappealing (he has never enjoyed them - he likes the sniffing for about ten minutes, and lives in hope of finding traces of an “interesting” bitch, but otherwise is not a dog for long walks). He also wakes early (5 am usually) to toilet, and both dogs use the garden then.

I’ll have to discuss L2 versus L4 with the vet, bearing in mind your observations on effectiveness.

If you look up the work of Professor Ronald Schultz, he has done a lot of work with canine vaccination and immunisation.

None of mine have boosters much after around age 7 years.   HOWEVER at one point a couple of years ago, we had rats seen out back so I took them in to have their Lepto shots brought utd.

My dogs are not vaccinated for leptospirosis (I insist the vet leaves it out) and we regularly get rats in the garden because our house is right next to stables.  None of my dogs has ever been sick or caught lepto.  When the rat 'presence' gets too much, I have to deal with them periodically.  So it's ongoing... We also live next to marshes and rats love water and this is a very ratty place to walk them regularly...

I give only DHP at 9 weeks and 16 weeks, then I do give 1st boosters - again of only DHP.  After that, no vaccinations until about 6-7yo when I may either titer test or give a DHP to see them into old age.  (I would just titer except I don't like the additional stress of a blood draw - same for that 1 year booster.)  So they have only 3-4 vaccinations during their lifetime.  Excluding rabies, if we decide to do that.

onetwothreefour, interested in why you booster after 1 year when the DHP vaccine data sheet advises immunity for first 3 years after puppy jabs if pup was vaccinated between 8-16 weeks?  (I have only read the Nobivac data sheet btw).

I don't vaccinate for lepto following risk assessment based on the environment around us but also behaviour.  E.g. a dog that drinks out of muddy pools/puddles would be more at risk.

Lepto is the one I keep up throughout my dogs' lives; even my 15 year olds get it. Being a bacterial infection the immunity from the vaccine is short-lived, unlike that for a virus such as parvo or distemper (which is why it's an annual booster). In practice lepto is the second most common vaccinatable disease seen in UK dogs, after parvo. Unless a dog is going abroad there's no need to give L4 because L2 covers the tpes that are seen in this country.

Some time ago, I asked my then vet re titres and was persuaded that they are not only quite expensive (with them) but not necessarily that accurate.   So I switched mine to every 3 years, after basic puppy shots were given and boostered 12 months later.

And then stopped all that after around age 7.

Each to their own.  But re Lepto and rats, I wasn't comfortable to potentially leave mine 'unprotected' with rats around.  They were given L2.

So your oldie is on medication, only healthy dogs should be vaccinated according to the manufacturer's protocol, logically/medically he shouldn't be vaccinated, especially if he has psoriatic arthritis which is an autoimmune condition

Thank you all for your comments (the forum setup lets me reply to only one comment at a time, so to save repetition I’m just replying to the last, but is to update you all).

“So your oldie is on medication, only healthy dogs should be vaccinated...”

Mr Oldie had just his cartrophen, no vaccination for anything. I had already declined the other vaccinations because of his age and medical condition, but was swithering about lepto because of the presumed presence of rats.

The “reminder” about vaccination was just one of those automatic things anyway. Neither of the dogs would have been in the vaccination loop if they hadn’t unavoidably had to go into kennels three years ago, where it was a condition of acceptance.

Lepto 2/4 are not core vaccinations & as Lepto is not transmitted from dog to dog should not be a required vaccination for kennels.

TBH if a dog is having treatment for any ongoing medical condition, they should not be vaccinated. Every time a drug is given to a dog for any condition it challenges the body's natural immune system & by adding massive challenges like multiple or singular vaccinations is unwise, hence the manufacturers protocol to cover them legally if a contraindication occurs

>onetwothreefour, interested in why you booster after 1 year when the DHP vaccine data sheet advises immunity for first 3 years after puppy jabs if pup was vaccinated between 8-16 weeks?  (I have only read the Nobivac data sheet btw).

Because research shows that some puppies are not protected until vaccinated at 18 weeks or later and some puppies are non-responders (but do respond to a later vaccination) - not as a result of maternal antibodies.  I wouldn't use the Nobivac data sheet to wipe a certain part of my body with because it believes that puppies are fully protected with the last vaccination at just 10 weeks.  Which is frankly ridiculous - we know maternal antibodies can prevent vaccinations from working up to 16-18 weeks.  It means there are loads of young puppies out there which are completely unprotected but whose owners believe they are protected.  Fortunately most of these will be caught with the 1 year booster...

As for Lepto:

- Look at the recorded numbers of cases of lepto in the UK - it is miniscule: http://www.lepto.co.uk/recorded-cases  In deciding to give a vaccination, you have to weigh up the pros and cons.  Using a risky vaccination with the highest incidence of side effects to protect against a highly unlikely disease, is inadvisable.  There is just as much lepto in North America as there is in the UK, and they do not give lepto vaccinations routinely or as part of core vaccinations there.

- In this study, only some dogs still had immunity after 16 weeks from the vaccination - 16 weeks!!!!  And people are assuming their dogs are protected for a year??:  https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2005.66.1780?fbclid=IwAR1zlt_9IXGs7cVEhs1VYdLxCV9NSNZRFFxbj6ookMjsZck7fnchML4bCR8

- Lepto infection is common but disease is rare since most infections are sub-clinical - only 1 in 3000 infected dogs develop the disease - as demonstrated in this paper where 24.9% of dogs in MI had been exposed to the disease but none were ill:  https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.230.11.1657?fbclid=IwAR01FJhNQNK34iP-a_9Zk1vayXYnBmIQQb6KPxj-39eE1tDuWnymz8TA2PA

- And in this study, "Vaccination history was available for 251 dogs (84.2%). Of these, 239 (95.2%) had been vaccinated against leptospirosis using a standard bivalent vaccine [L2] containing the serovars Canicola and Icterohaemorrhagiae in the past, and 220 (87.6%) within the last 12 months, according to the current recommendations for canine vaccinations. Seropositivity to these these vaccine serovars was only seen in 14.4% (Icterohaemorrhagiae) and 12.3% (Canicola) of the tested dogs, with the highest titer to one of these two serovars observed in only three dogs not vaccinated for more than 12 months.”  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113873/?fbclid=IwAR1U7tIQRj4ADGfFBRe0Tdrw61kO_PsW7HlQJN8vG_XVoqTSqCYOhYWfYKA#!po=39.705

So - I think anyone reading the research can make a pretty easy conclusion that it's not a good idea to give Lepto.

> I wouldn't use the Nobivac data sheet to wipe a certain part of my body with because it believes that puppies are fully protected with the last vaccination at just 10 weeks.  Which is frankly ridiculous - we know maternal antibodies can prevent vaccinations from working up to 16-18 weeks.  It means there are loads of young puppies out there which are completely unprotected but whose owners believe they are protected.  Fortunately most of these will be caught with the 1 year booster... >

Just fyi, maybe they make that claim based on these research findings

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6670203_Comparative_trial_of_the_canine_parvovirus_canine_distemper_virus_and_canine_adenovirus_type_2_fractions_of_two_commercially_available_modified_live_vaccines

>Just fyi, maybe they make that claim based on these research findings

Exactly.  Just 20 puppies tested - why would they want to base their vaccination of hundreds of thousands of puppies on that...?  It's known that statistically it's a few puppies in a hundred which don't respond.  20 puppies is nothing, no kind of research at all...

>In this study, only some dogs still had immunity after 16 weeks from the vaccination - 16 weeks!!!!  And people are assuming their dogs are protected for a year??:  https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2005.66.1780?fbclid=IwAR1zlt_9IXGs7cVEhs1VYdLxCV9NSNZRFFxbj6ookMjsZck7fnchML4bCR8

But in in this one, however they found "In addition, after 56 weeks, still a high level of immunity against renal infection with sv. canicola and, as a consequence, urinary shedding of sv. canicola bacteria, was demonstrated. It was, therefore, concluded that with this vaccine, using this vaccination schedule, a duration of immunity of 1 year can be attained against infection with both serovars."

And yet in 2018, only 118 dogs throughout the whole of the UK were diagnosed with canicola serovar and only 10 with icterohaemorrhagiae - the two strains they're discussing in that paper:  http://www.lepto.co.uk/recorded-cases 

And that's the dogs reported as INFECTED, not as dying from these serovars.  The majority of dogs make a full recovery with antibiotics.

Your dog almost is more likely to die from Alabama rot than lepto. 

Why vaccinate the entire canine population of the UK, with a risky vaccination which is known to have the highest side effects of any vaccination given, when (according to the research I quoted) it typically lasts less than a year, it is effective against only either 2 or 4 of the hundreds of serovars of lepto that there are, and only a handful of dogs each year are reported infected??? 

Big pharma is profiting hugely from the naivety of the general public on this one - and vets as well, who with the annual lepto vaccine can insist they see dogs annually instead of 3 yearly for vaccinations.  But unless people educate themselves it's the dogs which will continue to suffer the consequences.

>Why vaccinate the entire canine population of the UK, with a risky vaccination which is known to have the highest side effects of any vaccination given, when (according to the research I quoted) it typically lasts less than a year, it is effective against only either 2 or 4 of the hundreds of serovars of lepto that there are, and only a handful of dogs each year are reported infected??? 

Because, primarily, it is zoonotic and can kill humans. And just as there are hundreds of strains of flu, the human vaccine only covers the one/s that are most likely to affect the human population each year; likewise the L2 vaccine provides some protection against the serovars hat are in the UK:the L4 vaccine was developed for dogs which are likely to come across extra serovars most prevalent overseas. The number of vaccine reactions is stunningly small, despite what some people say!

>Because, primarily, it is zoonotic and can kill humans.

I disagree that's the reason.  Because rats are the primary carriers of it, not dogs - and regardless of how many dogs you vaccinate, there are rats everywhere - including their urine and faeces.  It is very very difficult to catch lepto.  You need to have a cut or an open wound which comes into direct contact with contaminated rat urine or faeces (or contaminated dog urine or faeces presumably).  That is so unlikely to happen that even human sewer workers are not vaccinated for leptospirosis...

>That is so unlikely to happen that even human sewer workers are not vaccinated for leptospirosis...

That's because an effective human vaccination against it hasn't yet been developed.

People who take part in water sports, such as rowers or canoeists, or anglers, and indeed wild water swimmers, are all at risk. In fact Andy Holmes, one of Sreve Redgrave's rowing partners, died from it.

NHS information.

Not true.  It's because the standards of safety and testing for human medicines and the safety margins that are considered acceptable are far more stringent than for medicines for animals. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5343615/  "Although protective against lethal infection, particularly in animals, bacterin-induced immunity is considered short term, serovar restricted, and the vaccine can cause serious side effects."  Well, the same is true of the vaccination for dogs... It's just that we give it to them anyway, despite these issues.

Funny how people always bring up Andy Holmes, in connection with Lepto deaths & watersports. Thing is he cut ALL ties with the water sports 20 years before he died, his daughter knew nothing about his involvement with rowing until after he died. So if his death was directly related to his rowing career why did it take 20 years to kill him ?? Just a thought.

The human vaccine is in existence & used in countries with a high risk of Lepto such as China.

>The human vaccine is in existence & used in countries with a high risk of Lepto such as China.

Tell that to the NHS!
"check your dog is vaccinated against leptospirosis (there isn't a vaccine for people)"

Different countries different  rules. If I've understood what I read last night correctly yes a human vaccine does exist but its risky and not considered sufficiently protective for those risks in the majority of countries including ourselves.  Hence why the nhs wont use it .
Still very much work in progress for humans

The human vaccine is not working any differently or any more dangerous than the vaccine we give dogs - it's just considered acceptable to have lower safety margins for animals than for people.  Products require less testing, for animals, a greater number of side effects and deaths are accepted and so on...

Facebook Replies:

Penny Garner-Carpenter says:  I dont give any dog lepto. It's a vaccine that doesnt prevent dogs getting lepto. It alleges to reduce infection and shedding if a dog gets lepto, but in fact masks symptoms making it harder to treat. Most dogs dying from lepto have been vaccinated. Never give lepto with other vaccines as it muddies the water when trying to decide which vaccine caused the bad reaction. Never give to puppies (lepto4 currently under investigation for damaging juvenile kidneys)

Elaine Alexandra Davidson says: Stopped all boosters when my lot were young after all testing positive to their titre tests. Didn't give lepto.

Judith Atkinson says: I don’t vaccinate any of ours, oldies or youngsters, against Lepto as our vet agrees we are low risk.

Catherine Lewis says: Yes, we live in a rural area with standing water and a lot of rodents.

--- Penny Garner-Carpenter says: Catherine Lewis too many dangers giving a vaccine which offers no protection against dogs getting lepto

Christine Gillingham says: I don't vaccinate unless necessary. I do a vaccicheck

-- Penny Garner-Carpenter Christine Gillingham you cant for lepto but it's far too dangerous and ineffective to give

Clare Foss-Smith says: This is an issue we are particularly concerned about at present. Our 17-month old ESS developed IMPA which is a really nasty immune-mediated condition and she’s on steroids and immune suppressing drugs for 8 months as well as having to be on the lead for this entire time due to her suppressed immune system. Looking at the research exhaustively the cause is unknown but there is a suspicion it may be post-vaccination as it occurred 2 weeks after vaccines. She’s 17 months old and this has seriously interrupted her gundog training as well as we’re so sad to have to have her spayed and she would have been a super breeding bitch otherwise. We just don’t know whether to go ahead with her vaccines later in the year.

---Penny Garner-Carpenter says: Clare Foss-Smith I would strongly advise against any further vaccines

---- Clare Foss-Smith says: Penny Garner-Carpenter thank you. We hope insuring her without being vaccinated won’t be an issue. Presumably a note from the vet would help

Yes, but when posters insist it does not exist that is totally wrong, NICE will not approve it so the NHS cannot use it. Simple as that. Too many contraindications for NICE

>when posters insist it does not exist that is totally wrong

It's the NHS that says on its website that it doesn't exist.

The NHS website is a UK website, for the British health system.  They are giving simplified advice on complex health issues for your average person in the (UK) street.  They mean that there is no vaccine available in the UK.  You can't go to your GP and request one.  That's different to there not being one anywhere.

My ten year old toy poodle Emma had an avalanche of extra vaccinations including rabies before the age of nine months, to enter UK with me from AUSTRALIA (ironically rabies free). Her reaction to the vaccines post arriving every twelve months, forced by vets in UK caused her to vomit and poop blood and very poorly. So I've stopped. Her mongrel brother, I allowed necessary vaccinations until about three years of age. I've been anxious about my decision to avoid what I felt were unnecessary toxins injected into my dogs bodies. Thanks all of you who talk openly and in an educated way of your reasons for and against. When I meet dogs of high longevity I've asked owners about their feeding regime and medical treatment. The majority don't vaccinate after the first couple of years. Many feed human grade raw mixed meat plus safe table scraps and offer highest qual dry food. I feed the same plus kelp and turmeric. The only health problem Emma suffers from is blocked anal glands every few years. So not vaccine related! And the young lad, Thommie...seed heads in his paw 2019. Also not vaccine related. I'D VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR CURRENT THOUGHTS ON VACCINATIONS PLEASE?

My two young dogs died of the disease you mention. Having survived the treatment for it both died within one year. Both dogs died following their so called NECESSARY VACCINATIONS. I really wouldn't ever vaccinate after the first year or two....if then. Really hoping your dog recovers and lives a long, full life.