Hi Fellow Dog owners

Odd titre results, no immunity - any ideas?

I’m a new forum member so please be gentle

Have you titre tested before & has anyone explained how titre tests work ?

Rather than copy & pasting an explanation or trying to explain myself this might help

^ That.  Zero antibodies detected can mean the body doesn't know how to make them for a particular pathogen, or that the dog simply hasn't been exposed to those pathogens recently (which I think would suggest you're in a nice low-disease area).  Some people will walk their dogs in more dog-heavy areas for a few weeks before a titre test to gain exposure to pathogens, so that immunity shows on the test if it is there.

Titre for what disease?

I discussed this once with the vet I was using at the time and was basically persuaded not to bother as they weren't reliable enough.   Perhaps they are more likely to be useful prior to giving the first vaccination, in case mum's natural immunity hadn't dropped off.   I knew a breeder overseas who did this with all her puppies before they went ahead with the first external vaccination.   At what cost I don't know.   And that was another thing my vet said - by the time you get titres done, which may or may not be accurate at the time, I might as well go ahead with boosters.

Hi

I’m so sorry - I typed a long message in my inaugural post....but the only thing I can see of it is the first line.Bizarre.
Hope this goes through in its entirety: I have a 4year old Bernese Mountain dog who - like my prior Bernese - had his normal puppy shots and then a booster at 15 months. He has been titre tested since and his immunity has been deemed “protective/positive” by vet and Lab. Yes, like with my prior 2, the titre fluctuates throughout the years BUT his current titre showed that he ONLY has good immunity against adenovirus and NONE against parvo and distemper. Actual lab report states : 1 Negative.
I do not understand this because his prior titres showed the required antibody response and I fully appreciate that some dogs ( or humans) never do, regardless of frequency of vaccination. But that doesn’t apply to him.
I suppose its possible that this is due to a lab error, but I wondered whether anyone here has come across something like this before. A LOW titre I could still understand but none (negative)? I can’t get my head round. I do know about memory cells and all this - years ago I was really hot on all things vaccination - but this seems odd.
Any ideas?
Fingers crossed  this goes through beyond the first line.
Thank you for any ideas and sharing experiences.

In regards to under exposure to pathogens - I fully understand where you are coming from.
BUT my dog gets twice daily long walks  where there are LOTS of other dogs. Honestly, its a very well frequented area by other dogs and I take him to town, many different walking areas, the beach, the woods, etc.
Granted, I presume most, if not all, of said dogs are fully vaccinated...but should that exposure prime his antibody response anyway?Plus there are foxes and some such who arent vaccinated. Its just too weird that his titre went to nonexistent antibody measured.

This is the difficulty with titres u cant know what is held in the memory cells and will mount a response if its required .
If there has been antibodies previously proven personnaly i wouldn't worry .
Distemper is relatively rare anyway and if they haven't been exposed to parvo recently and u could never know unless an animal u have been in contact with has developed parvo antibodies wont present.
It is considered  and proven that immunity in the case of these diseases are at least 7 years and likely to be life long. 
Its also why I do titres the result cant be assured

The problem, furriefriends, is that this this negative titre would nullify any insurance claim forthwith if I don’t have him re-vaccinated. Even if he doesn’t develop Parvo or Distemper, anything which broadly falls under this remit would void his insurance, They will weasel out of everything possible regardless of how tenously linked. Plus, I’d never forgive myself if he DID develop either disease. Or give it to a vulnerable pup or older dog.
But the whole thing is bizarre. Even a low immunity titre I’d unsterstand. But NONE?

> Even a low immunity titre I’d unsterstand. But NONE?

Didn't you say the score was 1? In which case it is low. 0 is none.

Its rare to have an insurance company who will accept titres as proof of immunity especi6 if julie dog were to become I'll with one of.those illnesses
.most companies  just exclude any illness that could.be covered by vaccinations and ignore the titre aspect  as it is not entirely reliable in a day to day basis . 
I accept that risk rather than vaccinate each time
Obviously that's is just my view having gone round in circles for ages . I would expect no antibodies as very likely if they hadnt been in contact with the diseases but that antibodies would be produced due to memory cells in the event it was needed .its
a shame that we cant test for cell mediated immunity as that would resolve the issue.
  each person will decide for themselves what they feel is best for their animals of course

Reading all this  ^^^, I suspect this is why my vet said what she said when I enquired about having them done before mine were given booster shots.

Totally agree mambas. Titres do have a use for us but u have to really decide what u will do if they arnt what u expect.
As I said for me if mine have been vaccinated as pups and having learned more around 8 weeks after the titres show that they have immunity ( antibodies are most likely  to be circulating at that point I am happy not to co continue with vaccinations and neither would I I titre again.
As for.insurance as I said most just exclude anything connected with those illnesses not cancel the whole.policy if u choose not to continue with vaccinations. I take.that small risk

Apologies for errors in the typing but that's what's happens when u are out late having just been to the pictures . Fingers and brain still on judy Garland lol

I suppose you are technically correct, kayenine.

But from my understanding - which could be erroneous, it’s a while ago since I really dealt with the vaccination topic - titres fall under positive (classified from strong to weak depending on measured antibodies) and negative.

For instance, my boy’s results read:
ImmunoComb Canine VacciCheck:

Adenovirus IgG : 6 (positive)
Parvovirus IgG : 1 ( negative)
Distemper IgG :  1 (negative)

Whilst there are degrees of positivity, I dont think there are graduations of a negative result. But, as ever, I could be wrong.

Before the Rabies Titre was removed from the Pet Travel Scheme requirements I was involved in a small study( only 500 dogs involved)into titre test results. All of the dogs involved had the required tire test result for rabies & ALL had recent boosters or initial core vaccinations within 8 weeks of sampling

The results were very interesting, older Non initial vaccination dogs had very varied levels from negative to "safe", initial vaccination dogs had exactly the same range ! So dogs that had had their first double dose vaccinations( mainly young puppies) could have no discoverable antibodies !

Does this mean that the negative range dogs had no protection ? Food for thought !!  I wasn't involved with final analysis of the results nor in the interpretation & report competition unfortunately & the study was for a private company & not for public publishing I could not access the immumologists opinions<~~most flustrating.

There is a theory that when memory cells come across core vaccine diseases antigens they can trigger the production of required antibodies to overcome them & when the antigens are no longer present the remaining antibodies are "reabsorbed" into the body over a period of time. Whether this is true, I am not aware

That was very interesting, Ann. Thank you. Not sure what conclusion that can be drawn from it aside that there is still much to be learned in the field of vaccination. Or the field in regards to the reliability of titre testing. Or both.
I will have him re-vaccinated and a few month later, mainly to satisfy my own curiosity, repeat the titre test. Be interesting to see what it will yield. Part of me is still highly dubious about the current results. In fact, just earlier I got a PM from a member of my breed forum stating that she had a negative result, negative for both parvo & distemper, exact same scenario as myself.  She insisted on a repeat titre with a different lab....all came back as strong positive. Maybe that would be the most prudent way to go, but just how much money does one fling at it to avoid a booster jab?

As I understand it there aren't degrees of either: if antibodies are present, then the dog has immunity to that pathogen.  If no antibodies (if there has been recent exposure) then no immunity.  But you've no way to test for recent exposure, of course.

However, if he's had antibodies in previous years, then his memory cells know how to make them.  It may be simply that parvo and distemper aren't currently in your area - they aren't everywhere.

If you're going to booster then retest, make sure you don't leave it too long just in case those diseases aren't present locally; otherwise there's the potential for the immune system to have done its thing and the detectable antibodies fade back to nothing, with no ongoing threat.  I'm not sure what the timing would be but I think it's weeks rather than months.

As for money - well, I suppose that depends on how much you have!  I've got to have my youngest boostered because I couldn't extract his vet history from his previous owner, and he needs evidence of vaccination for agility.  I'd much rather titre test because he has allergies (club is kindly allowing me to hold off on the booster until he's non-reactive even though he's started classes however, because chances are he is up to date anyway), but if I do that and it comes back low/no and I "need" to booster, I can't afford to do both. So begrudgingly, I have to just have the booster done to meet the club requirements.

>It is considered  and proven that immunity in the case of these diseases are at least 7 years and likely to be life long.  >

Can you point me to any research on this please?

Thank you, Nikita, much appreciated.

I really got to brush up my knowledge on those vaccination and titre issues. Truthfully, once upon a time I was pretty clued up on it ...but looking back that was nearly 20 years ago when I started titre testing one of my previous Bernese. I am SHOCKED how much I have forgotten about it!

BUT, with my previous 2 titre tested chaps I didn’t encounter any weird negative readings either. It wasn’t that their titres were constant or linear. They fluctuated from a strong positive to a weak positive - as the labs do grade the antibodies measured - especially when they were younger. After 7 years, oddly, the titres showed an increasingly stronger positive level every passing year. As I hadn’t had my dog vaccinated since he was 2, and as far as I knew we had no outbreaks if parvo or distemper in the area, this was surprising. But welcome.

This isn’t. To me its nonsensical. But there we are. I have no idea whether its a lab error, an erratic one-off spurious reading, or an accurate representation. Whilst I do remember - however foggily - the memory cell issue is a tricky one. As furriefriends said it all depends what level of risk, and from what side, one is prepared to accept. The memory cells in a perfectly healthy dog might well spring into action when challenged, but what if the dog is off colour from something else at the time and his immune system is already busy and battling on another front?

Hope all goes swimmingly for you and his allergies won’t rear up.

Unrelated question: why is there an American flag at the top of my post? I’m neither from the USA nor in the USA. I do like the USA but why has its flag inserted itself to my header? Another mystery!

If u Google Ron schultz and dr Jean Dodds quite a bit comes up on those points. Both if u arnt familiar with them are tio immunologists and well regarded in their fieldhttps://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/ here rin Shultz work is referred to both their are a peer reviewed  articles available as well

Thanks.

>The problem, furriefriends, is that this this negative titre would nullify any insurance claim forthwith if I don’t have him re-vaccinated.

I wouldn't use that as the reason for revaccinating.  I don't revaccinate my dogs after puppy shots or (at most) 1st year boosters.  I haven't titered yet either although I might in future.  It's extremely unlikely that your dog would contract parvo or distemper and that is the only thing that would be affected if you don't vaccinate.

In your own dog's case, it's not really a mystery at all - he had antibodies, you saw those in a positive titer.  Then he just wasn't exposed to the disease in the environment, so the antibodies are not measurable in his blood.  But he is very very likely still protected because he has had a positive titer in the past.  If a dog's first titer came back as negative, then I do think there would be a reason to revaccinate - and test again.  If you've had a good titer in the past and now this is happening, I would assume it was because there'd been no challenge to the immune system recently with these diseases but he is still covered.  But - you gotta make your choice.

You might want to read this v interesting study:  https://ivcjournal.com/vaccine-antibody-responses/