Hi all

I was reading this https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-widnes-dog-attack-first-20172025.amp and wondered why do dogs attack tjere own owners. I know dogs dont attack for no reason and i dont believe dogs are born evil either so why would a dog attack its own owner?

There's all sorts of reasons, and some dogs/some breeds have a lower aggression/fight threshold than others. If you think about how we can scream and hit at a table we accidentally stab a toe on, that makes little sense as well, but we still do it. From what little I have heard, this incident involved an argument between two people, and things like that can set some dogs off. Join the fight so to speak. So much is pure instinct. I once accidentally shut the backdoor with one dog's paw in the way, the dog screamed and the other dogs instantly attacked it. I don't think we can ever get definitive answers.

Definitely sounds like the argument set them off. My previous Lab would hide in fear if people shouted, some dogs become aggressive when they’re scared.

Unfortunately it’s also not unusual for social animals like dogs to “gang up” on weak members of the group because a weak animal will slow them down, use up resources that it can’t help to obtain, and attract predators. Sometimes that involves just shunning an individual and driving it out of the group, sometimes it’s a more violent outcome.

Maybe the dogs kind of decided the mum was losing and decided to join the winning team?

Maybe it started as a game to them but they got carried away? It sounds awful but it’s natural for a predator to enjoy injuring and killing and once they start seeing something as prey they basically have no reason to stop.

Dogs can be very sensitive to human behaviour & shouting & screaming plus physical altercation could easily trigger such an incident.

No one will ever really know what happened, but as usual the dogs will pay the price with their lives

Maybe it started as a game to them but they got carried away? It sounds awful but it’s natural for a predator to enjoy injuring and killing and once they start seeing something as prey they basically have no reason to stop.

Anthropomorphizing animal behaviour IMHO. Animals killing other animals is not done for fun or enjoyment, it's a survival behaviour, hence Big Cats/wolf packs etc do not hunt & kill for fun, they do it to continue to survive. After feeding they don't automatically go hunting again. Solitary Big Cats(tigers, cheatahs etc)frequently cache bigger kills if they are not feeding cubs. Depending on how big a kill is, even prides/packs don't kill on a daily basis. The only animal that kills for"fun"is man.

Police marksman should never be allowed to dart animals, to state a dog has tasted blood so "has to be killed"shows no understanding of animal behaviour, good job it isn't applied to service dogs, otherwise they would being killed on a regular basis, especially the RAF & Army dogs. From my experience darting animals should be a veterinary role, far less likely to miss or dart in the wrong place.

Having seen police"marksman"attempting to dart cattle & missing their target in several incidents, only to have a trained vet being successful on the first attempt I know which is better equipped.

I know certain police forces prefer to shoot to kill than sedate & train their officers to do this. A famous case in the Met area involved 2 GSDs in a secure compound & 25 rounds used to kill them for an alleged biting incident that never happened !!

I don’t know, we all know how much dogs enjoy play. And what is play if not a simulation of hunting? Stands to reason that chasing and killing something must be enjoyable in the same way that running after a ball or ragging a soft toy is.

Of course animals don’t kill for fun, but that doesn’t mean they don’t experience any pleasure in the process.

"Pleasure"is a subjective experience & attributing it to the act of attacking & killing by an animal is tentative.

What happens(IMHO)when multiple dogs attack another animal is instinctive rather than deliberate.

Ragging a toy is also an instinctive behaviour( IMHO),extremely young puppies rag toys(& each other !)as part of their learning to hunt, despite very few ever carrying this on to actually hunting & killing. In wild predator studies, the young are offered the skin & parts of a kill in order to learn how to kill, wild(& domestic)cats will bring live prey for their young to learn to hunt & kill. They don't do it because it is pleasurable, but because is part of the instinct to survive.

We should mould our domestic pets by shaping their behaviour & sadly  in this case it is obvious thst these dogs have not been taught bite inhibition. They have probably never been trained at all, like so many pet dogs

That’s the thing though, just because a behaviour is instinctive doesn’t mean it doesn’t provide pleasure. And pleasure is measurable by scanning the brain - if you could somehow do an MRI of a lurcher chasing a rabbit I’d bet diamonds you’d see the pleasure centres of the brain lit up like a Christmas tree.

I don’t doubt you could also measure neurotransmitters and come to the same conclusion.

I wish I could think how to explain it properly.

If you give a dog food when it puts its bottom on the ground and the food is rewarding enough, it will start sitting more often because food is pleasurable. We all know this from working with our own dogs. That’s an “external” reward, if you like.

But ultimately it’s the brain that provides the real reward in the form of brain chemicals. Food is rewarding because we get a hit of dopamine when we eat (plus reduction of the pain of hunger, of course). Individual animals don’t eat because they know they need to do it to survive, they do it because the brain rewards them with pleasurable sensations when they eat.

The lurcher will chase a rabbit when it isn’t hungry and doesn’t need to eat. He’ll leave a full food bowl for the opportunity to run after an inedible toy. Why? Because chasing is intrinsically enjoyable. He can’t reason out that he needs to keep his body in shape and practice hunting behaviours because it will help him reproduce in future, he just knows that chasing is fun. And it’s fun because his brain “knows” it’s beneficial for him and rewards him for it.

I found all this stuff really difficult to understand and I know I can’t explain it well, but I’m doing my best and hopefully it makes some kind of sense.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

You are trying to anthropomorphize a dog's "sense of pleasure", the feeling of pleasure you as a human have maybe the total opposite to the way the same experience I would have. For example you feel pleasure from eating a traditional roast dinner, I would have totally the opposite at even the thought of eating the same thing.

What you perceive as pleasure in a dog chasing a rabbit, to me is a deep rooted instinctive behaviour, dogs are not aware that they will not go hungry, they don't know if they are going eat when they are next hungry, so instinctively attempt to secure food in the now unless they have recently fed.

One of my dog's loves bananas, even if he has just been fed(which includes banana)if I prepare one for myself, he will try to elicit some from me, by offering behaviours he knows in the past have been rewarded with food. He's being doing this for most of his life(he's nearly 12)never does it for anything other banana, is it because he "enjoys" the banana ? who knows. Perhaps he has a deficiency that only banana can rectify ? Unfortunately he can't tell me, but I suspect it's because he "likes" the taste

As this tragic attack involved a dog and a bitch, I have to wonder whether perhaps the bitch was in season, to add to whatever else was going on in that household.

Id guess it was the argument between the mother and daughter that could be the trigger but I doubt the exact cause will ever be know for sure.
I once knew a dog who had gone for it's owner a few times, the dog was very fearful, the owner heavy handed and when it's owners argued it sometimes turned into a fight between then and the dog would go for the male owner. Wether that was from fear of the male owner or protecting the female owner or bit of both I don't know.

I knew a friend's small dog who once bit their mother when they were having an argument once.

Not specific to this case, I've not read the detail, I just wanted to comment on this:

> Animals killing other animals is not done for fun or enjoyment, it's a survival behaviour, hence Big Cats/wolf packs etc do not hunt & kill for fun, they do it to continue to survive.

My old dobermann lived for the kill of small furry animals and it was very much a pleasurable activity for her.  Yes, I'm anthropomorphising, but it was fun, and it was the most rewarding thing in the world for her.  She never ate her kills, and she lost interest as soon as she knew they were dead.  Wild animals don't kill for fun, but some dogs certainly do.  Remember these are not a natural species - our species has selectively bred them for all sorts of things, including manipulating the hunting sequence (e.g. most herding behaviour - the 'stalk' part of the sequence, massively magnified but with the rest (catch, kill, dissect, consume) chopped off).  For her, if it was purely survival, then she'd have not only eaten her kills but I think she'd have gone after other types of animals too; but if it was anything other than furry or a dog, she wasn't interested at all.

I think it is utterly tragic this poor woman died in such a way and terrible for her daughters.

I do wish that people would steer more towards naturally gentler or at least much smaller breeds of dogs as household pets unless have a real interest in dog training and socialisation.  I know all dogs can do bad things but these heavy strong head strong breeds are over represented in bad attacks as too many of them are in the wrong home.  great dogs in right home- plain dangerous in wrong one. not the dogs fault but they and people around them pay heavily when it goes wrong.

> I think it is utterly tragic this poor woman died in such a way and terrible for her daughters. <br /><br />I do wish that people would steer more towards naturally gentler or at least much smaller breeds of dogs as household pets unless have a real interest in dog training and socialisation.  I know all dogs can do bad things but these heavy strong head strong breeds are over represented in bad attacks as too many of them are in the wrong home.  great dogs in right home- plain dangerous in wrong one. not the dogs fault but they and people around them pay heavily when it goes wrong.

I agree , i think if they had a golden retriever or like you say a more gentler breed this may have not happened , im not saying it wouldn't as any breed could have done this more the chances of a breed like a Golden doing this is significantly lower.

Breed like american bulldogs and Rotties ect i believe should only be in the hands of people who are 100% commited to training and socialization and doing there research before buying and preferably experienced people.

or indeed if they are determined to have a muscular dog then have a proper old fashioned staffie. staffies can have issues with other dogs but its a very rare staffie that isn't great with people.  

I have to admit american bulldogs I am very wary of after being bitten by a neighbours escaped one last year.  he had zero training, he ruled the roost, he got out and bit me and 2 other people in space of 10 minutes.  his owners were  clueless that he was dangerous until it happened . to be honest it could easily have been one of them in news if they had tried to tell him what to do .   stunning looking dog in prime of youth-and was pts on advice of police who attended.  and it was the right call as he was dangerous due to his upbringing.  they loved that dog and had no comprehension that they had made him dangerous due to their complete lack of understanding of how to train him.  had they had a gentler breed it would have been unlikely to have been a problem that the owners were hopeless and they would have got to keep a loved pet (and I would not have a scar down my leg)

> or indeed if they are determined to have a muscular dog then have a proper old fashioned staffie. staffies can have issues with other dogs but its a very rare staffie that isn't great with people.   <br /> <br />I have to admit american bulldogs I am very wary of after being bitten by a neighbours escaped one last year.  he had zero training, he ruled the roost, he got out and bit me and 2 other people in space of 10 minutes.  his owners were  clueless that he was dangerous until it happened . to be honest it could easily have been one of them in news if they had tried to tell him what to do .   stunning looking dog in prime of youth-and was pts on advice of police who attended.  and it was the right call as he was dangerous due to his upbringing.  they loved that dog and had no comprehension that they had made him dangerous due to their complete lack of understanding of how to train him.  had they had a gentler breed it would have been unlikely to have been a problem that the owners were hopeless and they would have got to keep a loved pet (and I would not have a scar down my leg)

How awful , thats my only fear is being attacked or bitten by a dog. I agree , staffies i use to be wary of because of all the idiots who use them as weapons but theres one owned by a family who lives across the street and i adore her she has changed my mind on staffies. Im wary too of American bulldogs but also Rotties , mastiffs, German shepherds ect not because im scared of any of those breeds but because i dont know what type of owner they have and what training if any they have had. I wish more people would do there research before picking any breed but the stronger breeds specifically. And i do feel the gentler breeds like goldens , labs, cavalier king charles ect are better suited to family life with the average pet owner.

Thought this made interesting reading:

"Dog bite victims in England in April 2017/ March 2018, by age. This statistic shows the number of hospital admission episodes for dog bites and strikes in England from April 2017 to March 2018, by age group. People aged between 50 and 59 were the most likely victims of dog bites and strikes, with just over 1.3 thousand admissions in this reporting year." Source

List of fatalities 2010 - 2019

Grim reading.

But we know.that banning certain breeds doesn't work and the stats dont even bear out that the big breeds like this are responsible for.the most attacks .
True the bigger dogs will usually do more damage but the breed recorded  the highest for bites in a few articles was.the labrador
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-44072175   may18 admittedly

>but the breed recorded  the highest for bites in a few articles was.the labrador

Until very recently there were more labradors in the country than any other breed (probably still are, but recently Frenchie registrations have overtaken them), and so statistically more likely to be involved in incidents.

And it also worth remembering that if you're playing tuggy with your pet and your finger accidentally gets caught, requiring treatment, that will be recorded as a 'dog bite'.

That is true JG as always statistics can be manipulated and should be looked at from all angles.
As for the playing tuggy I had something similar happen with my gsd when we both went to get a toy we were throwing at the same time. I endes up with a single bite in my thumb .my dog fortunately did have bite inhibition  and immediately let go and stepped back looking mortified. I know.thats humanising him but u get the picture :) the basic point was he stopped
Unfortunately it did need a and e and so that again went down as a dog bite for the statistics

The dog related injuries involving teeth are recorded in ED all get included and even though I worked in my ED ( argued the point hard and eventually had it recorded as an accidental puncture wound !) when I went to throw a ball and hit poor Vino in the mouth jamming my palm up into her canine tooth which required hospital treatment (including a nights stay after 2 days for IV abx due to an infection ) . That would have gone down as a hospital admission due to a dog bite if I hadn't known the score and fought her corner !! So a lot of the bites recorded are nothing like bites but I expect a good 30% are accidental injuries caused by tuggies and sticks and balls !

"Anthropomorphizing animal behaviour IMHO. Animals killing other animals is not done for fun or enjoyment, it's a survival behaviour"

There are actually many many animals that kill for fun. Bottlenose Dolphins are a major major one that have been scientifically noted to engage in killing various animals for no other purpose than fun. Most commonly porpoises but also random fish. Not a single bite taken from it, they just chase it around for a few hours, kill it and move on.

Domestic Cats (bar feral cats) also kill for fun. Thousands of birds and rodents are killed each year by Domestic Cats and not eaten. They're just toys to them.
Even big cats really enjoy catching rodents and birds in their spare time, but don't usually eat them and in fact they're sometimes full when they do it. They enjoy the thrill of the chase.

Can you produce verified research into this. Kill for "fun" behaviour in Bottlenosed dolphins

Talking to Horace Dobbs today about this & it's not something he has witnessed in over 2 decades of studying wild dolphins. He's interested in the research you have that proves this. Also which species of Bottlenosed dolphins were involved in the research & have any other species of dolphins been included is similar studies

> staffies can have issues with other dogs but its a very rare staffie that isn't great with people.

They are responsible for quite a few of those deaths in the link Admin posted.

> the highest for bites in a few articles was.the labrador

One bite is very different from killing someone. Every dog has the capability to bite under certain circumstances but not many breeds have the tenacity and strength of jaw to kill a grown human. Dogs that were previously bred to fight on no matter what personal pain they are in don't (in my opinion) have a place in modern society. Sure, most bull breeds are lovely, but if you get a 'bad' one, doesn't matter if that's due to nature, nurture or illness, they simply have the ability to do so much more damage.

A lot of collies for example are not good with strange dogs or even people, but a well placed kick would normally have it skulking off. In accounts of dog attacks that I have read bull breeds are not put off by raised voices or hits/kicks and are very difficult to stop once in the red mist zone.

Indeed a bite is far different from a full on attack that results in death .
But how do we resolve this ? The dda has failed so what next ?

> A lot of collies for example are not good with strange dogs or even people, but a well placed kick would normally have it skulking off. In accounts of dog attacks that I have read bull breeds are not put off by raised voices or hits/kicks and are very difficult to stop once in the red mist zone

Diesel has been attacked by various breeds but the worst was by bull breeds both staffies and pitbulls. Hes been attacked by Rottweilers and other german shpherds whome i was able to get off him without much damage even the Rottie was easier to get off than the staffies.the problem is they clamp down and dont let go , nothing i did go them off , shouting, kicking, screaming , i even sprayed pepper spray and the staffie hung on. In the end a person in there house came out and stabbed the staffie to get it off diesel.

I believe there is some research around pitbull grab and bite behaviour that suggests that for this type of dog fighting is indeed a pleasurable activity because of the release of dopamine and opioids, unlike fighting behaviour in response to a perceived threat.  I'm afraid I cannot give citations, but a simple research should reveal something.

The brain architecture and biochemistry of mammals is not so very different, so the notion that certain actions, particularly actions that are repeated ( reinforced/ rewarding) might be pleasurable is not really that contentious.

> Dogs that were previously bred to fight on no matter what personal pain they are in don't (in my opinion) have a place in modern society.

Can i ask are you talking about dogs only bred to fight like staffies and pits or are you meaning guarding breeds aswell like Rotties, GSD ect?

Rotties and GSDs were not developed to fight other dogs; only a few breeds were ever developed for that.

Yes i know but i was just wondering if she was only meaning dogs for fighting.

IMHO, there are upsides and downsides to most breeds and types but if you live in an urban area, for instance, it might be easier not to own a type with high suspicion, guarding or protection traits., albeit those attributes can be exaggerated or dampened down, much depending on breeding and socialisation. That said, would I advise the average family to own an Akita, Shar-pei, working Malinois or a flock guardian breed, no I wouldn't- though in the right, knowledgable hands all those breeds can be great. Bottom line, you have to be clear about what you want in a pet, your knowledge level, and then look very honestly at the traits of the breeds out there and go for the best match.

I'd have thought if your sister gets to know a new dog from being a very young pup she will have a much greater chance of getting over her fear, of that particular dog anyhow.

Just to add, not meaning to cause offence or label any breeds as 'bad' just that some may require more than the average owner can do or give.

> Can i ask are you talking about dogs only bred to fight

That's what I wrote.  Dog fighting, bull baiting, anything where they were selectively bred to hold on no matter what pain they are in, no matter what happens to them. Bred for tenacity, to never give up.

Guarding or reactive breeds not actually bred to hold on no matter what might be more likely to bite, but, in my opinion, they are easier to get off their 'prey' too. They're more likely to be scared away by a kick or a shout, more likely to stand back a bit barking and dive in for the odd bite. Of course there are exceptions to every rule but that is my opinion.

With every single dog we have to remember what they were originally selectively bred to do, and even though they may not have worked in that capacity for many, many generations the instincts are still there. How many times do you see pet bred collies rounding up other dogs or kids in the park, labradors carrying a stick or ball around, sighthounds chasing anything small that moves quickly. With the best training, breeding, upbringing dogs will still sometimes do what they were bred to do a long time ago.

> But how do we resolve this ? The dda has failed so what next ?

I would say enforce the DDA, ensure that police know the law and act on it.

I helped out a guy just outside my house whose dog was being attacked by a pit bull type. I managed to grab the 'stray' dog, luckily it was people friendly, I took it to the police station, no chip and obviously not neutered, muzzled or on a lead as per the law. The owners live in the same village and were very pleased to get the dog back shortly afterwards. The police didn't say anything to them other than they should think about getting it chipped!

Thats a worrying read and most of the deaths are from bull type breeds.
Ive been bitten after breaking up a dog fight and im sure that went down as such as i had to visit a&e too. The fight was between my own 2 dogs and i got in the way, actually i think i ended up in a&e twice from them. 

As for attacks on dogs my Rotts sadly have had problems with Staffords going for them so when i see one i will cross the road or do what i can to avoid. We've had american bulldogs stalking one of mine. A Stafford flying at another at a dog show too. A whippet going mental at one of mine in a garden centre. Sadly for my eldest this has created her to be reactive if anything rushes towards her.
I won't say all Staffords are not good around other dogs but when they are coming from all sorts of breeding to all sorts of owners we haven't had positive experiences in terms of dog v dog.

The motivation for lots of dog bites is fear, he says. Others are territorial - if they're guarding something that they highly value, or defending their favourite resting place, their bed. Or if they've learned to defend, say, a dog bowl - that can result in aggression.

> I would say enforce the DDA, ensure that police know the law and act on it.

The DDA is massively flawed, though.  If the police acted on it, then the dog in your example would be on lead and muzzled for the rest of its life or potentially (and often far more likely) PTS when it hadn't done anything wrong and was friendly.  That hasn't protected anyone and it's condemned the dog to a life of restriction or no life at all.  Hundreds, maybe thousands of dogs have already died who did nothing wrong, because of that legislation, and some of them weren't even pit bulls.  They just looked vaguely like one and that's all that's needed to seize them.  There have even been cases where litters of young pups have come into rescue, and some of those pups have been seized and some haven't, purely going by their look.  How does that protect the public?

It isn't nikita and has not protected those it was Intended to and great cost to many innocent dogs  . An  incredibly flawed law imo that needs reviewing

There's the cost involved too.  Those dogs that are seized may have a chance of being put on the exemption register, if they haven't done anything wrong, but that costs thousands in legal fees and many people just can't do that.  So they have no choice but to know their pet will be killed for no reason.

And, there is no other option than the exemption register once a dog has been identified as 'of type' and seized: these dogs with no offense in their history are treated like dangerous dogs for the rest of their lives.  It's absurd.

I remember watching a program about this some years ago where a dog was seized.  He was very obviously a pit bull.  He was also friendly, and just going for a walk with his owner, on lead.  The police officer who was being filmed just happened to see them walk by and as per the law, had to seize him on the street when he'd done absolutely nothing.  The owner in desperation and despair asked to say goodbye, then tried to unclip the dog's lead to give him a chance of freedom.  It didn't work.  It was awful to watch and summed it all up, for me.

And as you mentioned litters where one or two are identified as of type and the others arnt .just based on look .its horrendous

>The motivation for lots of dog bites is fear, he says. Others are territorial

It's probably safe to say that all aggression is due to fear; fear of losing territory, fear of losing status, fear of losing a valued resource ...

> It's probably safe to say that all aggression is due to fear

Indeed.  The things described above I would not consider territorial; those are resource guarding behaviours but yes, they are fear-based behaviours too.