My miniature schnauzer had her second litter in June where there were two puppies. They have found new homes since but I just got a message from one of the puppies owner that the puppy suddenly died while he left to go to the shops for couple of hours. He said he has just become unemployed and didn't take the puppy to the vet as it was too late. I don't know what has caused him to die as he was a healthy puppy when he left and had been vet checked with no mention of any health issue. The new owner said he already desexed the puppy and was walking the puppy for 5km every morning. I dont know if that contributed to anything. I'm not sure as to if I should do anything at this point. My dog previously had a litter of three puppies and they have not had a single problem.

well without body being examined by a vet there is no saying why puppy died - or indeed if has died.
I don't see as you can do anything on information given. if had been neutered then would have been examined by a vet at that point and found healthy or would not have gone ahead so whatever has gone wrong happened after that

I am sorry this must be so upsetting for you as the breeder.
Sadly without a vet seeing the body unless the owner admits  something u are unlikely to know what really happened.
16 weeks and neutered I know it's not uncommon In  the USA and possibly Australia but that's incredibly early and not something  u could control of course I doubt it contributed or the excessive walks  but as weimed says as this wasn't long ago a health.check shouod have been done and no problems showed up.that u have  been told about.
Are temperatures  particularly high ,I an assuming you are in Australia ? Just a passing thought . A very sad situation

5km a day seems an awful lot for such a young dog.

Tragic as this is, and soooo frustrating for you to have this news and not be directly involved since the puppy left your hands, unless the guy is coming at you for recompense (?) and unless you have need to know, for your future breeding plans (?) all youwould be required to do would be to offer your genuine sympathy.

If he's looking for compensation, that's another matter and you/ your vet need to either be in touch with his vet or have the body back for your vet to do a necropsy?   If you are so minded.

For the record, no male puppy should be castrated until the growth plates have closed - even with retained testicles, this should be able to wait.

Further, that's way too far for a puppy that young, to be walking.   Ambling around is one thing, organised walking - no way.   Especially if the temperatures were unduly high?

Doesn't sound like a post mortem is likely as.the owner said he cant afford to got to the vet and likely to late now
Unfortunately  imo paediatric spays are not.uncomon in some.countries .
I've heard of breeders neutering before.the dog ,Male or female.leaves them at 8 weeks

Yes. I'm in Australia and it has been getting warmer. The owner is not asking for compensation but I find it very strange that he did not take him to a vet even for an examination and at the same time lost his job. Quite upset that I sent one of my puppies to such a home and that I didn't tell him to stop walking him so much. Of course I can't control what is happening. He mentioned possibility of congenital problem and I don't know if I should try to find out why the puppy died.

He said the puppy had pet insurance as well.

Given that a vet must have seen the puppy when he was castrated, would it be possible for your vet to talk to that vet to shed some light on why the puppy died, even if the vet wasn't involved in the loss?    Sometimes vets prefer to talk to other vets rather than a lay-person, even (or maybe especially!) the breeder.   Somebody suggested to this owner that there could be a possibility of congenital problem?

I have no idea where he was desexed. I didn't even know he was desexed until a week ago when the owner came to pick up the pedigree paper saying he was already desexed and was going for 5km walk every morning and then would have 2 hour sleep after the walk. He seemed to be happy about it. The owner never mentioned any issue until the puppy suddenly died. I assume if a vet found something wrong, he wouldnt have desexed him. The owner is a nice person but perhaps he has no experience with raising a puppy. Perhaps he thinks sudden death could be from a congenital problem but without an examination no one would know. I guess he must be buried now

I would have liked to know for future breeding.

so the puppy was alive and well a week ago when pedigree papers were collected. so whatever has happened with his health happened in last week only. would have been health checked by vet with you, health checked by vet with new owner when had vaccinations/puppy wormers prescribed. health checked by vet when neutered . 3 health checks and no illness picked up does not sound very congenital to me.
are you sure puppy is really dead?  is owner hoping for money back as said dead? could he have been sold?

I would totally agree with what weimed has said in her last reply.   Something doesn't add up there.   Especially, again as said, if the vet was happy to do a castration?   That should have included a heart check and other bloods that most people opt for, pre-surgery.

I tend to be very cynical these days - too much water under the bridge not to be!   I just hope this man isn't after money, or that the puppy hasn't changed hands.

I'd also need to know re my future breeding programme - could be somebody has suggested this was a 'congenital problem' without really knowing what that means, or the potential implications!

I'm so sad for you because this kind of thing can ruin the joy of producing puppies (breeding).  Other than the actual whelping, this is what I found so hard, when doing the occasional litter, which we only did for our next generation going forward.

> the puppy hasn't changed hands.

Call me cynical, but I'd be thinking this too.  It's a bit coincidental that he gets the pedigree papers and then this happens.  I'd wonder if he's sold the pup on for potentially more money than he bought it for (or the same) and is now hoping to get even more money back from you for this alleged health issue.

I would ask to speak to his vet directly and I would ask him to contact his vet and consent to this if necessary.  If he is evasive or refuses to give you his vet's details, then I think you can suspect that he's sold the pup on...

I totally agree that the story is odd. It sounded strange from the beginning. I find it very strange that he did not take him to the vets even for simple examination when he was "supposed" to have had health insurance just because it was "too late" to save him and his vet was "closed". There are emergency vets around that are open 24 hours. I guess being sold to another person is better than passing away. I'm not sure as to how much right I have as a breeder whether Im overstepping the boundaries by asking for vet details and so on. If he does come back to ask for money back then I would find it definitely suspicious. I find dealing with people harder than raising puppies. I find raising puppies very rewarding but something like this ruins the experience.

I'd suggest you'd be well within your rights to at least have your vet speak to this owner's vet, but only if the man comes at you for 'compensation'.  Vet to vet may be possible over owner's vet to breeder I'm afraid.

I TOTALLY agree re dealing with people often being harder than raising the puppies although I don't remember it being as bad as it had become by the time I ended my bloodline.   Our early puppy-buyer relationships often ended up with people become firm friends.   Would that had continued!!

I do know I'd have been heartbroken not to know where a puppy whose new owner/homes I'd carefully checked, ended up.   But as you say, perhaps being alive with somebody else, is better than being dead.

I've had people try to bargain with me and when I refused, say that they "shouldn't even be getting a puppy". I've had a person bring in her child with "mental illness" to get a puppy to be a "therapy dog". He was very rough with the puppies so I refused to sell a puppy. I've had people come and ask for all the documents like desexing paper, pedigree paper etc and hardly even look at the puppies. I thought this guy seemed genuine enough but sadly didn't end well. I'm pretty new to breeding but absolutely love the breed and have enjoyed raising healthy and happy puppies. None have had any problem before leaving my place. But I've been very disappointed by people and I'm not sure if I will continue. Thank you for all the advice.

well if he goes on to ask for a refund do not give him one. there is no evidence this pup is dead let alone that he died of anything a breeder could prevent.

I wonder if it could be something like Cain Toad poisoning?
Considering they are not asking for any money back or replacement and they contated you rather than you asking them how the puppy was doing then they told you I'm not inclined to believe they are up to somethin. After all if they sold it on why contact you all it would be easier to never contact you again. Had they of been asking for money or another puppy then I'd be suspicious espicaly with lack of necropsy.

Yes, that is true. It could even have been a snake bite but of course may not be detected without shaving its legs. It could have been anything even food related. He hasn't asked me for money back. I guess I just find everything odd. He told me that he had a doggy door in his house and yet the puppy was left in the garden when it died. I do feel bad for the owner but won't be giving a refund or replacement. I think he just chose a wrong breed for what he wanted.

> I'm not inclined to believe they are up to somethin. After all if they sold it on why contact you all it would be easier to never contact you again.

Good point!  My cynicism kicking in went there.    And as the puppy was left outside, unattended, anything might have caused this - perhaps including somebody poisoning him for some reason?

I have thought that could be a possibility. He remarried recently and his new wife is a cat person, didn't seem to really like dogs. He showed me some pictures and there wasn't a single one with his wife in it. Lol. It sounds like murder mystery. I never imagined him to die so quickly in such odd circumstances. All the puppies from last litter have not had a single problem.

5km a day is a crazy amount of exercise for a 4 month puppy.

The puppy was left alone for a couple of hours - a lot could have happened. If it was wearing a collar it could have got strangled accidentally. If it wasn't confined it could have choked on something it found etc. Accidents happen.