Hi all

So after the great advice you all gave in my barking thread were still in love with the flat coat but i have more questions after talking with an owner.

I was walking kiara and i saw a flattie so stopped to chat and was shocked by the response she said dont get one there not what you have been told she said mines a nightmare and i wish i picked a lab. She said stick with the lab there so much easier.

She said hers is vocal and never shuts up ( the dog was quite the whole time i spoke with her) but on here iv been told there quite so im wondering if maybe hers is under Exersiced either physically or mentally?

She also said they are hyper and they just never relax? Does this sound like flatties? I thought they do settle in the evening once given plently of physical and mental Exersice? She said hers is bouncing off the walls?

How much exercise do they need? Kiara gets 3 walks a day 2x 45 min walks and x1 45 min run is this ok for a flattie? She gets plenty of mental stimulation too.

She also said hers never listerns to her at all she said her dog is just dumb? I know there clowns and can take longer to train but surley there not that difficult?

She said labs are calmer , easier train and overall are easier to live with?

I know labs are easier to train but surley there not easier to live with. I was so shocked i never asked how much exercise or training the dogs had but afterwards i thought surely a lot of these issues are owner related and not breed related.

We really are smitten with the flattie so am looking forward to hearing from you all.

That reads like she would have been better off with a stuffed dummy from 'toys R us'

'One Man's meat is another man's poison'

One persons easy is another's difficult.

So relying on one persons description of a particular dog is really not helpful

Accompanying my dog walking friend who boarded and did Daycare, the people who said their dog was well behaved often had the reverse in our opinion, and some who called their dogs naughty had characterful but pretty well behaved well balnced pets.

The amount of excersise you describe I would call Loads.

I consider the average walking needs for most adult dogs being an hour, and less would be sedentary, and more active.

Mine ( a Scandinavian Spitz breed) get an hour, and young adult ones happily would go all day, the oldies I would not take out for more than two hours a day.

As a breed the occasional day without a walk or a quick round the block would also be fine, and I expect many purely pet ones must get less and as a result with overfeeding are extremely fat.

The only thing I'd beware of, is the high cancer rates.  Research that and understand what it means, before getting one - so you are fully informed :)

I would say Labs are easier to train and live with compared to a Flatcoat 100%.. Flatties will require a lot more work in comparisons to a Lab. If you wanted something similar to a Lab then i would look at the Golden Retriever.

I work my flat coated retriever and she's absolutely so much easier to train than a Labrador.  Her desire to please is incredibly high, the only thing I have to train for above all else is steadiness, otherwise she'd be off after everything.  We have play time where she's allowed to be a giddy kipper, but she knows the difference between training/working and play.  She's an incredible worker, I've watched her track a pricked hen pheasant down a water course where it was tucked up high in some brambles going over the stream.  My only concerns now with the breed are the high cancer rates, and also popular sire syndrome, there are a lot of pedigrees with one or two kennel names throughout, any time something wins in the show ring breeders flock to use it and it has done nothing for the breed.  I'm no expert by any means, but the one I have now is my first and last for those two reasons.  If you are looking for one, look to the working lines, there are some in the UK where they breed for type rather than to win in the show ring.

Cancer is a problem with the breed and has been for many years, as it is in  others ,sadly.
There is research being done and hopefully this will improve as time goes on . It wouldn't and hasn't put me off having two fcr . I would still have another should my lifestyle allow 

My first did have cancer although that wasn't what she died of but lived until nearly 11. .  my current fcr is nearly 9 and so far so good .  By comparison I lost both my gsd at nearly 11, a breed where people  don't immediately think of cancer but it was still the same and at similar ages  . So for me its just how it was

Both were bred as  dual purpose and their parents worked  . Totally agree about steadiness, something we have struggled, with as well as giddy kipper :)

They are like any other breed and differ from dog to dog. My first was the most gentle laid back boy ever. I had a lab at the same time as him and it was the lab who took the most keeping up with. On the other hand the youngster I have now is so demanding and hard work but I love the breed so I just have to keep on top of him. All of the others have been/are in between. They need to be trained kindly but consistently as they get bored quick and don't take harsh handling. Having had both I would say you could batter a Lab with a fence post all day (not that I have before anyone says anything) and they would still bounce around wagging their tails, but a Flattie would down tools if you were too harsh on them.

It takes a person with patience and a good sense of humour to be owned by a Flattie.

Thank you so much to everyone who replied and sent me a PM. I really appreciate you all helping me.

We have read the replies together and we were concered that two members mentioned the cancer so we have researched it like onetwothreefour said too ( thatnk you for telling us) and after we found out just how high the rate is and what it means for the breed we have decided to say no. I normally research health after we decide on a breed so thank you onetwothreefour for telling us to look it up.

I already struggled badley when i lost diesel and i cant take loosing one early to cancer among other things we read.

On our list we only had two breeds but we got so smitten with the flattie we have not researched much on the other breed. Apart from a flattie the only other breed we like is the English Setter.

We will research the health of the english setter but is there anything we should know about the breed?

We know there quiet and fairly easy to train but can be stubborn, not great at recall off leash but we could always just use a long leash if needed. We know they are more gentler than the other setters.

We both prefer the english , we like the others but theres just something about the English that i cant put my finger on that draws both of us to them over the others.

Suejaw- jamie was attacked by a Golden as a kid and is wary of them he knows its not the breeds fault but he just cant have one as hes never gotten over it. And we not looking for a breed whos easy like a lab i was just quoting what the flattie owner said.

I'd be very greatful if you could tell us anything you think we should know about the English setter while were researching?

I was going to add that, in a breed with a high cancer rate, you want to be looking for older parents(!) really.  An old stud dog who hasn't been affected by cancer and not a really young bitch, but an older bitch.  But getting that combo as well as meeting health test requirements and all the rest of it is probably a tall order.

The English setter - are you looking at show bred or working lines?  They are quite different in setters...  For show lines, you are looking at quite a lot of grooming and really they need exercise, so you can't just keep one on a long-line all their life - you need to train the dog to recall.  Working lines are going to be very highly driven with a strong hunting instinct and not really recommended for a pet home.

Have you thought about a Spinone?  They will not be so high-energy and they have fantastic temperaments.  Have a google.  Or the Bracco Italiano? (Might be too short coated for you.)

Or there are many other minority retriever breeds to think about - chesapeake bay retrievers, curly-coated retrievers, irish water spaniels (which are actually retrievers).

I think, if you are looking for more biddability, then looking at the retriever breeds over hunting breeds would be best.

Labradors aren't *easy* as such, they still take a lot of training.  That said, they do want to learn, which makes the job easier than with a breed that wants to do it's own thing.  I personally like that a breed has the desire to want to please and is trainable, there's a good reason they're used a lot as assistance dogs. 

If you're looking at setters, I'd look towards working lines as they will retain more of the desire to work with you, in fact for most gundog breeds you will find that there is a split between show and working lines, and then you get a lot of pet bred dogs which is simply because they are so popular, and do make good companions for the most part.  There are very few breeds that aren't split, as the show ring does reward a different *type* than is worked, whether that's correctly or not.  Some of the newer, or more newly recognised breeds, such as Slovakian Pointers and Bavarian Mountain hounds are simply working lines, and pointers seem to be fairly *intact* as a breed with no split.

Please don't get a working line setter, unless you really appreciate how far these dogs run, how far they range and how determined they are to find game.  And yet how cruel it is to keep them on a lead or long-line all their lives.

Dogs bred to be from working lines retain more of the desire to find game and to hunt - and that is far stronger than any desire to work with the handler.  Unless you know how to channel that and to prevent it from becoming a problem, you will end up in a mess with an out-of-control dog.  Just ask the bazillions of people who get working bred springers, see them chasing everything and ending up out of control and then deposit them in rescue.

Unless you actually need or want or know how to manage a dog's hunting abilities, don't buy a dog with them.  Without an outlet for them in a productive way, they are only going to be a problem.

It's a misnoma that all working bred gundogs are highly strung and difficult to train, the work of a gundog involves being sat still for long periods of time, all that needs is an understanding of training and how to do it, it's not rocket science.  On the other hand I see plenty of people who buy pet or show bred gundogs, and they find them incredibly difficult to train.  At least with the desire to please, which a lot of working bred lines have, then you have won part of the battle.  So for a novice owner they are more likely to get a dog that is trainable from working lines, but they must put that training in.  A lot of working dogs end up in rescue because they are sold to unsuitable homes, no matter what the breed.  I've seen working springers sold as companions to elderly people who can hardly walk themselves, but know plenty of pet homes that have them as pets and they make great companions.  The same can be said of pet and show homes, not every breeder does their homework and sells a pup to a home that is likely to be the right home for a pup for life.

My breed (golden retrievers) do have a more and a more pronounced split between working and show. Not only does it affect the character and energy of the dog but even the size, shape, colour and coat.
I’ve had both show and dogs with a large amount of working in the pedigree and I have had more success in training dogs that have more working parentage then those that are purely show bred. My current dog is dual purpose bred, working on one side, show on the other side of her pedigree and practically falls over herself in eagerness to do as I ask, she has been a doddle to train although very lively and hard work as a puppy.

Ive not owned an English setter but have had an Irish Setter. Despite being quite a handful and as daft as a brush at times he was eminently trainable, but did need a lot more patience and time before it sunk in. He had a very good recall except when he got his nose on an enticing smell.
The English variety are calmer then the Irish, but do require plenty of exercise like their Irish kin. There was one in my village who was never ever off the lead. His owner just couldn’t quite bring herself to totally trust him. He had the occasional run round in a friends field, but most of his life was spent being walked miles and miles on the lead.

I don't know if RachelSetters still posts on here as she has owned all 3 of the Setters and currently has 3 Gordons. I know her dogs and also the English she had. I would say if i were to get a Setter it would be the Gordon from watching friends with the Irish too, more steady and seem to be much easier to train in terms of biddibility and to a high level too.
Hopefully she will see this and reply or maybe send her a PM on here.

What is the red and white setter like as a comparison? Not common I know

The only one I've known wasn't that easy, but not a good comparison as the owner wasn't that experienced.

Onetwothreefour - we defiently wont be getting a working line in any breed and know what your talking about.

Theres a big dog show on later today in our area and were going as it tends to get a big turnout and various breeds. Were hoping it may help with our decsion.

After further research we know were not suited to the English setter.

I will be able to post tomorrow if the local dog show helped. I think meeting any breed in person is best. Were taking kiara with us too as it should be fun.

>Onetwothreefour - we defiently wont be getting a working line in any breed and know what your talking about.

Phew, that's good to hear.  You might be interested in going to Discover Dogs in London this autumn - it's an annual event run by the Kennel Club and every single registered breed is represented there, with a few dogs from each breed, and their owners and handlers who will be happy to talk to you about breed characteristics.  It's usually October-November time - have a look on the KC website for this year's date.

There is a huge difference between hunting breeds, like pointers, setters, HPRs and spaniels - and retriever breeds.  Like flatties, labs, goldens and so on.  Many people posting here don't even seem to realise that and are lumping all gundog breeds together and trying to make statements apply to both groups.  That is a bit dangerous when someone is being influenced re which breed to buy, in all this.  These are very different breeds, with very different functions.

"There is a huge difference between hunting breeds, like pointers, setters, HPRs and spaniels - and retriever breeds.  Like flatties, labs, goldens and so on.  Many people posting here don't even seem to realise that and are lumping all gundog breeds together and trying to make statements apply to both groups.  That is a bit dangerous when someone is being influenced re which breed to buy, in all this.  These are very different breeds, with very different functions."

I'm assuming by 'many people' you're including me.  So which gundog breed do you own, train and work? 

English setters are a world away from a much more driven breed.  I can think of Labrador lines that are more driven than working English setters, but I doubt if anyone would discourage the OP against a Labrador.

My twopenneth on setters - I have owned English, Irish and Gordons (only Gordons now as they've stolen my heart!)

English - wonderful wonderful but whilst recall is trainable they tend to put two fingers up at you - far more independent then the others and tend to be a bit so what - but the cuddliest cheekiest softest things ever! In my experience the working side are more likely to hunt independently.  You never can quite trust them 100% recall wise and often the eejit was put back on lead after buggering off out of site!  Not stupid dogs at all but independent!

Irish - biddable and scatty - only had bitches but did agility and obedience - reliable recall as long as you put the work in - beautiful dogs inside and out. Fun to have and never a cross word from them.  Love company of other dogs and people - not keen on being alone.

Gordons - in my experience they have been easiest to train and with that want to do it for you too regardless.  Complete goofs who will put a smile on your face.  Heavier of the setter breeds.  I have done gold good citizen and do agility.  Smart easy to train - energetic but will settle.  Can be noisy but to be honest I've never trained the stop the gobbiness.  Think if you let them they will 'talk' - they are chatty dogs if allowed!  Mine check back with me on walks - range (this is something you need to know) but they keep an eye (as trained from a young age) and of the three setters have the best recall. 

I haven't owned the irish red and white so can't comment on their trainability etc. sorry.

Hopefully you have met some great breeds today.

The other point is that the OP husband has difficulties  with noise  hypercusis and whichever breed they.choose needs to be one where they are fairly quiet as well as a bark at a suitable pitch .

I had read barking was an issue - hence why I mentioned that gordons can be noisy but... not all - like said I've never properly dealt with it - I like them chatting and I know a lot of other owners don't have a barking issue!

Easily trained like I said to not do it !

Hi all

Thank you so much rachel for your reply on the setters.

The English setter is not for us and we met loads of dogs today and we know we want a gundog breed due mainly to kiara but also we love so many gundogs.

One woman did have an English and Gordon setter , she said the english was her first dog but will be her last english setter , like you rachel she said gordans are so much easier to train and she finds them easier to live with. She said since you love sheps you may like the gordon as there good watchdogs not to the extent of a shep but better than a lab. Being more independent is what made us know the english is not for us. Im going to PM you rachel as id love to hear more about gordons.

It was the first time we have met a gordon in person.

She said her gordon is not noisy at all but she trained hers to not bark from an early age. She said hers does do the Chewbacca noises like a shep but she said its not loud at all compared to barking and that hubby should be fine with the talking. She also had hyperacusis and he learnt a lot about the condition too from her.

>> a giddy kipper>>

Love it!!!

>English - wonderful wonderful but whilst recall is trainable they tend to put two fingers up at you - far more independent then the others and tend to be a bit so what - but the cuddliest cheekiest softest things ever! In my experience the working side are more likely to hunt independently.  You never can quite trust them 100% recall wise and often the eejit was put back on lead after buggering off out of site!  Not stupid dogs at all but independent!

Thank you Rachel.

>English setters are a world away from a much more driven breed.

Sorry but this kind of statement only reveals how little you know.  Even a quick search on YouTube will show you many amazing working-bred English setters with a heck of a lot of drive and speed.

Thank you Rachel for you PM and advice and info on the Gordon.

After speaking with the breed club and then speaking with two breeders who aren't breeding anymore but are knowledgeable on the breed and then yesterday afternoon we saw a local breeder and after all the advice we were give and meeting more in person  we have decided on the Gordon.

Thank you for everyones help.

How lovely I am so pleased for u ,they are lovely dogs and having met Rachel's u will enjoy them I am sure

Fantastic stuff - good luck - they are wonderful dogs to share your life with.

Im heartbroken to even be writing this but were not getting a gordon. We have met more and some were experienced people who said they are vocal and that training may help with barking but it wont help with the rooing that they make ( Chewbacca noises) and a few told us that it can get loud. One owner we met said her daughter has a similar condition and the talking hurts her ears. My partner just doesn't want to take the risk and so we are getting another lab instead as we know they dont make the chewy noises and there quiet dogs.

Sometimes staying with what u know is not  such  a bad thing.you can enjoy your dog not worring about some of the problems u were concerned about could arise..  labs are a known quantity for you which will help when looking g for.the right breeder and subsequent  litter. Good luck

Hi Sara

I'm sorry you're disappointed about not being able to go for a Gordon.

The good news is that as Labs are such a popular breed and there are so many litters out there all the time, you will be able to pick and choose and ensure that you find a breeder you really like and trust.

You can do your homework to confirm that the breeder you choose has thoroughly health tested the parents and that they breed for good health, trainability and great temperaments.

When I changed breeds a few years ago I went round in circles exploring all sorts of possible breeds (including setters and HPR's - all lovely dogs) but I ended up with working Labs, for a number of reasons.

I have not regretted it for a minute - although I often look wistfully at other breeds (and if I was 20 years younger I might have been able to have more dogs and more than one breed, but never mind ... !)

As Furriefriends says, sometimes staying with what's familiar is the best decision.  Good luck with your search for a new companion.  i am sure that you will find the right puppy for you and you can have confidence in your choice as you know the breed will suit your requirements.

Hi all

Thought i would update this thread , me and my partner had a talk not that much longer after my last post here and he told me he really prefers two breeds he just doesn't want another Lab so i said id still prefer to stick to what we know kida thing so i suggested a Golden as there supposed to be quite and are similar to labs so we did our research both online and by meeting Goldens and i can happily say were getting a Golden retriever as our next dog. I thought i would wait to tell you all till is was definitely the breed we were getting.

Glad to hear this. I’ve had goldens for over 30 years and they are just lovely dogs with kind gentle souls.
Make sure you go to breeders who health and breeds for good temperaments.

If you use Facebook there are several pages devoted to goldens. I belong to one called Golden Retrievers GB which is a closed group and very well moderated