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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Very STRANGE whelp! Please advise! (locked)
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 27.07.19 19:21 UTC
My 4.5 pound female Chihuahua is currently 2 years old and 57-59 days into her gestation. She was bred on the 28th of May and again June 1st. This is her first pregnancy. Though she should be about 8 weeks by now, our vet took an x-Ray at 7 weeks and due to bone calcification determined she could possibly be a week behind (late implantation). She was also quite small for being 7 weeks, so this made sense to me. Then she noted that our bitch had low calcium saturation as well and this could simply be her particular breeding and the puppies could indeed be 7 weeks, ‘but, expect a late delivery.’ Having bred schnauzers in the past and having seen my share of xrays, I agreed that she looked to be about 6 weeks, not 7. She looks to have two whelps, both small enough to pass without a c-section so, so far, so good!

Yesterday according to plan, I took her first temp, thinking we were still a good two weeks out. Her first reading was 98.5, I was not expecting that! So, I sent hubby out to get another thermometer, thinking it could be malfunctioning and we took her temp again an hour later, she was 99.4. Okay, still low but let’s see what happens tomorrow. This morning we got 98.3! Huh! Needless to say, I’m a bit dumbfounded as she hasn’t even began producing colostrum, her breast tissue is as of now underdeveloped for an 8 week along bitch and she has no let out with gentle squeezing.

I so wish I had started taking temps a week earlier because I have no baseline temps at all!

It’s worth mentioning that we noticed some mucous discharge yesterday for the first time in her pregnancy thus far, so she may have lost her mucous plug. No bloody show, no swelling of her genitals.

She began digging and nesting yesterday, is being less affectionate and has an occasional contraction...no panting, no loss of appetite, no whimpering or pacing, no signs of early labor...however, she is slightly restless, but nothing particularly noteworthy.

I’m simply dumbfounded, this is my first time breeding toy breeds and so far is proving to be a bit more challenging and less intuitive then my previous experiences.

Vet not in until Monday afternoon, so I’m left
to my own devices over the weekend, though we do have an emergency vet on hand.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what may be going on? Ideas? I’m simply baffled.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 27.07.19 19:55 UTC
My edit time has expired so I’m posting again. My chi was bred on the 30th of May not the 28th..and again on June 1st.
- By Goldmali Date 27.07.19 20:18 UTC Upvotes 2
She began digging and nesting yesterday, is being less affectionate and has an occasional contraction

I have no experience of late implantation. Personally I have never found temperature taking to be of any use at all. What does concern me is the sentence above - sha has actually had contractions? If she's had contractions and no pups yet, then I'd be seriously worried about inertia which I believe is common in the breed. Was she only x-rayed and not scanned? Do you feel the pups move so that you know they are still alive? If it was my bitch, I'd be off to the vets to play safe. Remember this is a breed that tend to whelp at 8 weeks.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 27.07.19 21:24 UTC
By occasional contraction, I mean A Braxton Hicks type contraction. She has been having them since very early on and something I have already brought up with the vet. I was told this was normal as it conditions her for labor when the time comes. They are not full on contractions you see with a bitch in labor by any means and I certainly would be concerned if that were the case.

Her digging and nesting was brief, lasted 15 minutes the first time and 5 minutes this morning.. and didn’t seem to, in my opinion, resemble anything I’ve seen before with a bitch in labor, was more the pre-whelping behavior I’ve seen with other bitches in their last trimester. I certainly could be wrong as this is my first experience with this breed.

Today she has been resting and so far it’s been uneventful.

Both puppies are moving around, just checked again now to be sure and they are still quite active.

She only had an X-ray no ultrasound as the vet felt this wouldn’t be necessary at her later stage of pregnancy and less effective at getting a whelping number and an approximate size which has been my primary concern from the start.

I am, however embarrassed to say that I was not aware that toy breeds whelp at 8 weeks. My vet did not mention this either.

By less affectionate, she has not been wanting to be in my lap as she usually does and prefers to lay on her side on the floor or in the closet where I have set up her whelping area.

Are temps not accurate? They were extremely helpful with my schnauzers always very accurate...but again I’m in new territory.

May go ahead and bring her in this afternoon, but I have a feeling they will turn me away and tell me to keep an eye on her.
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 28.07.19 06:36 UTC Upvotes 1
I'm another who has never set much score by temperature taking - in any case, while it's still fluctuating, whelping isn't likely to start.   It's only when it drops, significantly, and stays down, that you should be able to expect labour to begin within 24 - 48 hours.

Hopefully, as your last post was written yesterday, something has now happened!
- By JeanSW Date 28.07.19 14:20 UTC Upvotes 1

> May go ahead and bring her in this afternoon, but I have a feeling they will turn me away and tell me to keep an eye on her.


If any vet turned me away, and didn't listen to my experience, they would no longer be my vet.

In 45+ years I've never relied on temperature taking.  And my bitches tend to whelp on day 56 as the norm.  I prefer to mate my girls on the second season, it's nothing like mating a Shnauzer.  My girls are spayed at 4 years old, as far as I'm concerned that is what suits Chi's. 

Given that vets know nothing at all about the actual whelping of this breed - remember they deal with Caesars not natural whelpings.  I've delivered a litter in front of a vet and they've admitted that it was the first time they had seen a natural delivery.

This breed is notorious for inertia - you do realise that it can kill if not attended to?

I am concerned for you and your girl.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 28.07.19 18:58 UTC
After careful evaluation yesterday we decided our bitch wasn’t in need of an emergency visit. I left a message with our vet though and she did call us back last night and said it sounded like she was still a few days away from delivery.

I don’t believe she has calcemia, I have had one experience with that before and I don’t see any symptoms of that so far. I also have calcium citrate on hand, just in case. Do you think giving her a dose now would be wise? I figure it couldn’t hurt this close to whelping and could get things going.

This morning she has had diarrhea and is off food (she did take a couple treats though earlier), so I’m thinking we are getting really close. Her temp is up to 99.1 now, so maybe we are still 2 days out...she also seems to have engorged some overnight, her breasts are larger so progesterone must have dropped a bit last couple days and her prolactin has kicked in. Praying we are getting close. She seems otherwise normal, aside from occasionally digging under the bed (I think she has decided to whelp there so we are going to block that off this afternoon) she seems normal otherwise. Still no whining, pacing, not looking at her rear, she was outside earlier barking at the neighbors doing yard work and wagging her tail away when my son came in for a visit.

Nothing seems to scream labor yet.

I’m getting very anxious for this, can’t wait!
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 28.07.19 19:04 UTC
Her temp is up to 99.1..so we are still rising and falling. She started having diarrhea last night and that’s been ongoing since 5 am, it’s noon now. Her breasts are starting to engorge, also. Thinking another day or two?
Getting really excited...hoping everything goes smoothly. I’m going to bring her in to see the vet tomorrow afternoon to do a progesterone test and go from there.
- By suejaw Date 28.07.19 21:26 UTC Upvotes 1
You need to do the temps reg at the same times a number of times a day. All bitches have to have a good drop and go back up again for labour to start
- By Jackie R [gb] Date 29.07.19 06:09 UTC Upvotes 5
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but is it really necessary to take her to the vet again, so close to whelping? Bitches close to whelping imo should be quiet at home unless there is a specified problem.
Sadly some vets like to squeeze as much money out of their clients as they can and if you ask for a procedure, they are not going to turn you down. Her birth canal is opening and can easily catch infections from previous doggy patients at the surgery and it will be unsettling for her. Inertia can be brought on by too much interference, especially as there are only two puppies.

Your worry and excitement is understandable but it will rub off on her and the most important thing through the whelping and post partum is to keep the mum happy and relaxed and interfere as little as possible. I know its an anxious time, good luck.
- By onetwothreefour Date 29.07.19 11:14 UTC Upvotes 1

>. I also have calcium citrate on hand, just in case. Do you think giving her a dose now would be wise? I figure it couldn’t hurt this close to whelping and could get things going.


No, please don't give any calcium until at least one puppy has been whelped.  To do anything else only makes eclampsia more likely and is quite dangerous.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 29.07.19 19:28 UTC
Thanks for everyone's advice. I am not going to bring her to the vet today as I agree that it could stress her and I don't want to delay things. 
I haven't given her any calcium either,  thank you onetwothreefour, I waited on that until I got some advice from one of you. 
We are on day 59 and still no whelp or signs of labor.  Her diahhrea resolved last night as she had a solid stool. She didn't eat much if anything yesterday,  but ate some dry food this morning.  I've stopped taking her temperature as well.
She dug again under the bed last night,  we still haven't blocked that off, will be off priority this evening. Other than that wer are still playing the waiting game and will update here if anything changes.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 30.07.19 20:43 UTC
Still nothing, day 60. Should I bring her in? I am just hearing that toy breeds tend to go a week early so I am getting worried. Because the vet told me she looked a week behind I’m wondering if we are still in the clear or if this could be an urgent situation. Her water hasn’t broke, no green fluids, no panting or signs of first stage labor. What should I be looking for if she is experiencing primary inertia? I gave in and took her temp again last night and she is back up to 37.4. My vet is clear she wants to wait to do anything else...should I listen or get her into the Vet emergency?
- By onetwothreefour Date 30.07.19 21:30 UTC Upvotes 1
I don't think people realise that we can't really help in this situation - read my reply on the other thread in a similar vein. 

If you haven't done progesterone or cytology timing, there is simply no way to know if a bitch has really gone into inertia.

If you are worried, go to the vet, get an ultrasound, check the heart rates of the puppies are normal and they are not in distress, look for deterioration of the placentas - your vet should know how to do all this. 

Then get a progesterone blood draw done.  If the progesterone is below a certain level, the dog is in inertia and can have a c-section.  If it's not below that level the dog cannot have a c-section as it's too early and labour hasn't started and the dog is not in inertia.  Again, your vet should know all this.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 30.07.19 22:44 UTC
I called my vet and they do not do progesterone testing or ultrasounds. Where I live breeding is greatly discouraged (even among responsible breeders)and finding a vet outside emergency that does these kinds of tests is very challenging, not to mention one that knows allot about whelping. I can only imagine the lecture I would get if I asked a vet to do pre-whelping tests.
That said, they referred me to an emergency vet who was helpful and I was able to speak directly with a knowledgeable vet tech. Based on our conversation she said that because her milk hasn’t started to ‘let out’ and because she seems to have no other signs of stress she thinks that my previous vet was right that she may be earlier along. I will be going in tomorrow if I see no progress tonight and have an ultrasound just to be on the safe side.
You have been very helpful. I am sincerely grateful for your time and advice.
- By onetwothreefour Date 31.07.19 09:27 UTC Upvotes 2

>because her milk hasn’t started to ‘let out’ and because she seems to have no other signs of stress she thinks that my previous vet was right that she may be earlier along


Well, that's not true.  Many bitches don't get their milk in until they have had the puppies.  In fact, sometimes puppies can be hungry and crying for a few hours until the milk comes in.  It is often the process of whelping itself which triggers the milk production through the hormonal response.

There are often no signs of stress in inertia - everything appears to be perfectly fine.  You have a breed which is at high risk of inertia.  You are past the time when other experienced breeders with the same breed would have expected to see puppies.  And all you've done is talk on the phone with a vet tech.  I'm pretty worried for your dog, to be honest.

The time to research and find a vet to help you, is during pregnancy - there are many weeks to be finding where vets are, what scenarios they are prepared to help with, where the nearest repro vet is and so on...
- By JeanSW Date 31.07.19 13:02 UTC Upvotes 1
I posted 3 days ago, and won't repeat myself.  I'm very, very experienced with your breed.  Please read 1234's last post.  And read it again.  I've already explained that you could end up with a dead bitch.  Vets know NOTHING about the whelping of this breed.  Yet you seem to prefer their opinions to those of us with experience.

And my girls don't bring in milk until after whelping.  The pups bring it in by suckling.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 31.07.19 23:09 UTC Upvotes 1
I have done my research and have a backup vet, the ER vet. I’ve been getting different information from every person I speak to so I don’t think there can be any blame in anything I’ve done so far. Not all chihuahuas go a week earlier...perhaps Jean has a certain genetic factor that makes her dogs go earlier (most her bitches probably come from the same line) so her experience is still only one persons experience with my breed.
I brought my girl in today and had an ultrasound and all is perfect, two very healthy pups with strong heart beats and intact placentas. Vet was more concerned with my worry than my bitch after reading these messages this morning, he also says most his experience with whelping is with toy breeds, he said that some go early some don’t, he more often see the latter than the former...No reason for alarm until after 65 days! He was very knowledgeable and took time to really speak with me about every possible problem, including inertia in my breed so I trust his judgement well. He also ran labs to check calcium and that was good. If she doesn’t go into labor in two days we will be back for a c-section.
There is a fine line between being candid and straightforward and being downright rude and abusive. I have been a very concerned and responsible throughout this process, hence my inquiry on this forum.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 31.07.19 23:19 UTC
Thanks for what information you took the time to share with me. I won’t be posting here again either.
- By furriefriends Date 01.08.19 06:48 UTC Upvotes 8
I am slightly confused as to why if u have so much faith in your vet you posted here  at all.
Internet advice is always a tricky thing and as for Jean I wouldn't be so sure hers are all related at all .  very likely given the time she has been breeding and her knowledge  is that she has bought in other lines to improve her dogs .she doesn't only know here dogs but is very knowledgable about the breed in general
.  I dont see anyone being rude just having great concern and not understanding why u appeared to ask for help then consistently  ignore it
Anyway I hope it all.goes well
- By onetwothreefour Date 01.08.19 09:03 UTC Upvotes 4
I'm really glad you finally took your dog to the vet for a checkup and ultrasound and that all is well.

I also hope you can appreciate that by no means was this the outcome!  You could just as easily have gone there and found 2 dead puppies in there. 

Going and finding all well, doesn't mean that the visit wasn't necessary and that people here were silly for recommending it.  It only means that you got lucky, and all is ok at the moment!
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 02.08.19 20:41 UTC Upvotes 6
She went went into labor last night and whelped two very beautiful and healthy puppies.
I’m not sure why anyone thought I ignored advice. One person had suggested I not bring her in in case it would expose my bitch to pathogens and stress her (possibly causing inertia) and I agreed and decided to watch and wait. I certainly didn’t think anyone was silly for suggesting otherwise, but the later comments became a bit snide.
The puppies look to be to term and she went at 62 days as my vet had strongly suggested would be the case..not all toy breeds go a week early.
I’m just very happy everyone is well, we have a male and female and they are just beautiful. Mom, is doing very well also and taking to mothering very naturally.
- By Jemmaleah [us] Date 02.08.19 20:59 UTC Upvotes 1
I can’t speak to Jean’s breeding habits, but I made an educated guess based on the cumulative information I have gotten so far.
The vet I saw for the ultrasound was at a different office and does seem more knowledgeable than my previous vet. I’m glad I found him and will be continuing in his care from now on. He agreed with my previous vet about gestational timing and said in his experience (over 30 years) my breed tends to whelp 8.5 weeks (on average) or longer, more than half the time.
- By JeanSW Date 02.08.19 22:13 UTC

> I won’t be posting here again either.


Yet you did!  :confused:
- By onetwothreefour Date 03.08.19 09:12 UTC Upvotes 2
Because, you know Jean, some people always have to be right.

The fact they ended up with 2 live puppies appears to mean that therefore all their decisions were right, in their eyes.

Despite the fact that they didn't follow best practice and just got lucky. 

Next time, that might not happen...
- By Jackie R [gb] Date 15.08.19 22:03 UTC
So glad it all went well in the end
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Very STRANGE whelp! Please advise! (locked)

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