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I am interested in the principles of this Drive stimulation training. I have heard Drive mentioned before, but am interested in the practical application. Also does it only work with certain drives.

I have an Independant breed, very intelligent, but it's principle behaviour pattern off lead is to hunt, and range ahead of the owner, checking back from time to time. They have been bred to track big game ahead of their owner, even several km away, and use their own initiative. When they have the animal at bay they bark, and the hunter follows the bark and shoots the animal.

They are pretty reliable off lead when trained as babies to recall, because at that age they haven't the confidence to go too far, and this then formms a habit. Problems arise when the dog has not had the early training, and whatever you are offering is never as interesting as following it's own nose, and its affectionwill ensure it comes, or keeps with you, but it is mostly what the dog wants to do, rather than it expecting to obey because you said so.

This works fine, as they are sociable easy going and freindly, so generally there is no problem of not having an instant recall, as they tend to assess a situation, and get very good at working out if your voice is conveying danger, or you are just nagging!

This means they get off lead excersis in areas that I consider large and safe enough, with no livestock, which allows me to have them occasionally out of sight without having a heart attack :D

How does one use Drive in training such a thinking breed, as I am sure many in my breed, including all the Yanks that do Obedience and Agility on my breed list would love to know how to have a 100% reliable recall off lead?

Hi there,

Im a mere dog owner/lover and I dont think that I am entirely up to posting a decent response for posterity. Although I understand the principals and the results in my dog speak for themselves, I think it would be better for me to put you in contact with the trainer direct ? He will no doubt be able to explain better than I. Would that be ok ?

The only thing I would say is that we often walk in a country park with a bridle path that is quite heavily used. Naturally the horses were of immense curiosity to max, having not seen them in the past. He started toward one the other day. I simply put him in a down stay about 50m away from me.

He clearly wanted to go investigate but remained happy to down and watch this amazingly large "dog type thing" :)

So as far as I can tell from your post this level of obidience is really perfect in this case.

I should reiterate that this method worked with my dog with the above levels of obidience. I not advocate any particular method over another. Whatever works is good for me. But I do have a 100% reliable recall and distance control which speaks for itself I think. Personally Im so proud of the work that we have done to reach this level though <grin>

If you want to mail me at daren@scubainstructor.co.uk Ill be pleased to pass your mail on.

Regards

Marrus

HI Barbara

I'm no expert on drive stimulation techniques, but if you are interested there is a book called "Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive" by Sheila Booth with Gottfried Dildei :) It's very informative, but does recommend the use of prong collar as a correction. Interesting read however as i never fully understood what all this "drive" stuff was all about and i certainly learnt more from reading it and talking to a few people.

If i am correct, Daren's training involved the use of an electric collar which is why he had such quick results with his Dobe. I know Daren got desperate and it is interesting to read his experiences. In my view though, (and my dog is not easy - you know what BSD's can be like ;) ) persistent (in my case positive) training still wins through. The drives can still be used but emphasis is not on them so much.

Sheila Booth in fact went the "whole hog" a few years later and converted to totally positive training which I found fascinating having followed her train of thought and reasons etc.

Daren: positive or reward based training doesnt mean the dog cannot be "corrected" - but I do find some trainers just don't put this across to their pupils.In fact I don't think i have in the past. It's just that the punishement is meant to be informative to the dog. |It is never a release of owner frustration for example, and it is not physical. The dog is never punished for simply not understanding, which is the most common thing i see out and about. Usually punishemt is more for misbehaviour. The punishment can also be very subtle - I have used putting the dog back in the car, a sharp "ah ah" when necessary, and other similar things. Ending something the dog enjoys doing, withholding a reward - done correctly these all work well.

I'm not trying to "argue" at all - just want to put across the other view, as there are so many lurkers on here, it would be sad if they all rushed off thinking e collars are the answer to all their problems :( and certainly used incorrectly it will cause more problems than it cures.

Thanks for sharing your experience, although i am not convinced it's good to hear what others have to say :)

best wishes
Lindsay

You got what in what?????????????????

Are you haveing me on? you got a 2 minuit down stay afte4 lessons?? seriously
i gave up with my dog a boxer x with positive classes a couple of months ago.

I dont understand abou this drive training a all no one ever mentioned this to us just keep going to classes, no point.
Lindsey can you tell me about how you use an e collar you sem to know about them? I have seen a dog with one on and that was quite happy very fun loveing and not causeing problems, I asked the girl about it but she was rushing and didn't seem interested much she said you have to get training collar and nothing else but I did not know what is an e training collar what kind please tell me?

Darran is i the collar which does it or arthere other things? I am bewildered completly.

Hi - er yes Max down stays at 100m for 2 mins plus after 4 lessons amongst other things.
Its a real buzz to walk him down the road without a lead anymore (by the way - I live in a very quiet area and would never do this where traffic is a possibility!). He goes into work with me know and often we go into the town center for shopping. Even I did not think this ever possible but its been hard work. Max responds to a single trigger of his name and the command - once only. He is 100% reliable in distraction situations.

In the training program I undertook a lesson was from about 1pm to 6pm so we're talking about some serious time even though its only 4 sessions. In addition to that I had midweek assesments to get some tips on how we were doing. I worked with Max twice each day on his normal walks. So no its not a magic wand.

As I have said above all dogs are different and respond better to some methods than others. But if consistant positive classes with consistant reinforcement after the class has failed then it may well be that this is the way to go.

Ive read the previous threads on ecollars and I really really dont want to degenerate this thread with feelings on this from everybody - if you want to know more then Ill help as much as I can. As I've said Im no trainer just your average dog owner. I can really only tell you the results I have achieved and witnessed for myself along with the methods I have used. Its not just the ecollar. We saw drastic changes in behaviour in the first week of training when the ecollar was not even charged. So really its the whole training package.

If you want to send me a mail to daren@scubainstructor.co.uk Ill try to help as much as I can as I think the boards full of past posts about this and ecollars and I dont want to rake up the past :)

Daren

hI Alan

I cant tell you much about e collars because i won't use one - no offence to Daren but (this is my personal view based on my experience) there is always another way. I have quite a difficult dog, but have learnt so much by getting interested in behaviour and undeerstanding why dogs may do things, and then applying that to training. I use totally positive methods such as the clicker.

I'm training for working trials at the moment which means a high degree of control, and if I can achieve even a small degree of success in this with my crazy dog and my chosen way, then I will be very happy :)

I do have friends who have used e collars, , and often meet owners in the New Forest who use them, so although I don;t have first hand experience I feel I can make a reasonably informed judgement :)

If you do a searchon e collars, you will see it is an emotive subject and generates a heated debate.

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,

I'm just off to order that book as we speak myself :) Thanks for that reference.

Indeed the training we did with Max was via an e collar. I know that there are some advocates of prong collars here so wont comment too much. For me it was a case of personal preference and I too used to be appaulled at the use of e collars. That was until I saw first hand the latest equipment and tried it on myself a lot first. I dont want an e collar debtate - theres enough previous threads on that so people can trawl through those. Suffice to say people should judge for themselves and not be swayed by the uninformed as I was.

I compeletly agree with you that a correction is something the dog sees as a non benefit to it - ending a pleasureable experience for example by a simply "ah ah" or "no", or e collar, or taking away the object etc.

My experience is really of dare I say it - and its probably the wrong terminology - "treat only" trainers that I have worked with in the past. Although this resulted in conveying the meaning of a command and indeed taught it to a degree the reliability of this despite many many years of consistency never achieved the same results as now. But I will quickly qualify that remark with all dogs are different and an approach that has sucess with one simply wont have sucess with others.

Max was an extreme example. His rank drive was way up there and after months of work I couldnt bring it down. Desperate was a good choice of word to use. Despite months of consistant training that worked to varying degrees with my other dogs - it simply had no real or lasting effect.

I dont think e collars are suitable for all dogs and especially all owners. No question of that. What I do believe now having worked Max with one is that they are misunderstood by most. They should only be used with professional trainers to hand like any professional level equipment eg. prong collars (wont even go onto the subject of Haltis), and can do more harm than good if irresponsibly used. Anyone who thinks that an e collar gives you a remote control dog should instead of buying a dog get one of those Sony dogs for £2k. They can even read your email and you can turn them off when you've had enough :)

I suppose my point is really that I do see a number of posts on this board and others with people who are clearly desperate. People who are desperate resort to desperate measures like giving up with a high drive dog and then rescue ensues. If in those instances drive stimulation training by using an e collar works and gives both dog and owner a pleasant and better quality of life and stops 1 single dog going into rescue then its a good thing.

Its compounded I think by the number of different methods that abound. When an owner gets to the point of needing an individual trainer or behavourist as they simply cannot carry on and that does not work then they could rightly think to themselves - heck I've brought in the professional and he/she cant do anything. Then its the same old sad tale. How many rescue dogs advertise "must have a dominant owner" included in the description....before I got my trainer in I talked to a few to select one that sounded right. One even suggested that I should stare out the dog - sigh. It was only through my previous knowledge with dogs that I was able to weed out a few of the silly so called professionals. Its such a shame that some small minority of individuals ruin a perfectly responsible industry.

The message to anyone with a high drive dog and having real problems I think we would all agree though is KEEP AT IT! You will find a method that works for you and your dog be that reward only training - drive stimulation - or any other. Explore the options. Barring rare medical or psychological abnormal conditions I dont see how one of the various methods can fail to work.

Have a good weekend - Daren

Hi again Darren, so do I understand correctly the e collar is only a part of some other complete training thing? is that what you mean? can you please tell me first hand what are drives, I don't beleive in book taught theory can you describe it in any way as you must have a lot of knowledge for such acheivments.

No - Im just a normal dog owner :)

But see my reply above - its the whole package. In this instance the ecollar was a part of it. My experience in the past has only ever been with positive training that worked to some degree with my past dogs. I dont have any specialist knowledge and I dont think there is a great mystery to this training method.

Daren

Hi Darren thanks very much for the info. I have been thinking a lot about what you have said and although I don't understand much I think a couple of things. The fact that your dog went down at 50 meteres the first ( was it) time he seen horses speaks a million miles of the safety of your kind of training and I suppose of the trainer.
I was on the phone to someone from my old positive class and we as well as many more thought long ago that the dogs simply werent learning, the methods did not teach them anything except if there was nothing better on offer then they got a treat if they sat, but, if something else was on offer they thought was better then that is what they went for. There were some very quiet type dogs which did quite wel but I dont think they really needed any training anyway.
They just seemed to want to please their owners even if they did not get a reward and realy they didn't do much except walk close and quietly by their owners even if they were out and about, not a lot of interest in their surroundings I guess, so I don't think it was the training classes did much for them it was just that they were naturaly inclined to not want to do much except walk alongside the owners in the first place but for the majority with dogs which had some energy they werte a failure. completly. People came from similar classes and stayed a couple of lessons leaving cause it was the same old thing only in a different place, most had given up anyway which I did in the end as did most, there really is no one with even a half lively dog who did any good let alone 4 lessons and the dog went down with temptation aroiund, good heavens.
What I have been thinking about is that with the method you use the dog learns naturaly and somehow that is connected to his obvious closeness to you which seemed not to exist before, is that right?
Lindsey as someone who has done positive lessons how many lessons would you estimate to get Darrens results from a Doberman like darrens was, I have heard they are not easy but how long would you estimate?

Hi Alan

Well first of all I'm not an exert on Dobes, there are others here who know the breed better, but put it like this, we have 2 Dobes in our trials group. One is owned by our trainer and one by an "ordinary" owner, if you like :) All trained in the same way, positively with rare "punishments" if you can call them that. (To clarify, "punishment" here means time out, no reward given etc. Timing is important).

Last October the trainer got an award at a trial for the best controlled dog, even though she was competing against BC's and GSD's. NOt bad eh! and the dog is about 3 I believe. The other is very close to getting her CD, just loses concentration a bit but is very willing.

My dog trained the same way, a Terv, has gone through many phases, some have had me tearing my hair out (the frustrated barkgin phase - let me join in! NOW!!!) and at home she went through similar phases to Max, chewing not the wall but carpets in the hall, and paintwork - in fact let me correct myself, yes, she did chew the wall while we were in the house. I cured that by judicious use of Vicks, stuffed Kongs, distraction, child gates, use of time and tiring her out mentally wiht clicker training so she would sleep for all of 10 minutes LOL! :D

Many pet classes are just that - pet classes for baskc pet obedience whichis what most people want. Any further and you have to search a bit for the right trainer (in my case still reward based.) I know so many people who get good results from positive training - and don't forget that assistance dogs, who are required in some cases to actually put their owners in a recovery position - incredible isn 't it - are trained TOTALLY in this way. An electric collar does, amongst other things, destroy initiative. I prefer a bright enthusiastic dog who will stay or down etc because she loves it, and wants to, and because it is the result of all my hard work, and who may use her initiative if needed when competing, say.

And yes, it is hard work sometimes - but once you start to learn about behaviour and WHY a dog seems to have learnt something one minute and will have forgotten it the next lesson, you end up feeling so good ;)

I have to say, so many people - and you can see it here on Champdogs with some questoins - want an obedient dog, but don't realise it takes work, plain and simple!!!!! ;) I have worked so hard with my dog, and am now just starting to really reap rewards at 22 months of age (her not me :D.) We still have blips but that's expected. A well trained dog takes months of hard work, even years, and it is most common for owners to give up at the dreaded teenage stage. If they could just work through, keep at it, read, talk to people, learn, and keep training, it would all come right!!!

There's nothing, but nothing, like having a really happy little dog working for you, with you, because they want to, and because you have put in alll the hard slog to get there. There are so many dedicated owners doing just that, and the sense of achievement is reward in itself. Anyway I'll stop now because I tend to get so passionate i just can't stop, so I'lll be firmwithmyself :)

Lindsay

HI Daren :)

Well you certainly had a rough ride with Max ;)

If you can't get hold of that book it is available from www.crosskeysbooks.com or www.k9education.co.uk. Also if you are interested (she says hopefully!) do read the next book, the one called "PurelyPositive Training" as it is so good to compare them both, very interesting :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

Well what do I say Darren, congratulations or double congratulations, to be hones you still sound like you yourself are in a state of surprise.

I don’t think I have heard of someone with such a success story ever!

Anyway I am glad you posted because an e collar is something I have thought about for a couple of months if not more. I think one problem with them is that they are rare, I have never even seen anyone with one, and here in UK we don’t yet know how to use them or much about them as they are quite recent, so please give me some info.

I am with my third Pointer, I like you, took private training with my very first one after about 9 absolutely pointless months at a so called ‘positive’ class with inevitable negative results., I also found my trainer was very educational.

However my latest male is not as easy going as my two previous bitches and I can’t contact my last trainer and have no idea where he has gone .I am also very, very aware that there are a lot of completely useless people around selling all kinds of dog behaviour services giving themselves all kinds of work titles and who, from what I have heard, should be locked up so I am not going to employ someone because they exist.

My dog is in fact not very bad, I don’t have serious disruption in the home but when I am out I cannot get a reliable recall or a reliable anything much, the males are not so easy as the girls. What I would like to know is this. If I just want to use an E collar for mainly distance control do you think the trainer would simply show me that and basically how to use it correctly, sort of one or two lesson type thing.

If it took a competition Dobe 3 years to achieve what you did in 4 weeks and the E collar you used was only a part of a training program then I can only assume that what you had was a combination of quality training and quality corrections, is that correct? I suppose looked at from my position one dog was very poorly taught and consequently could not learn very easily because the method was to complicated or inadequate teaching facilities were afforded to it and the other dog, your dog, had good educational opportunities offered to it so it learned very quickly, all the benefits of a public school in a way.

Although I am seriously considering it at this stage, VERY SERIOUSLY, would also like to know in your experience, if there was much stress on either you or the dog? Maybe a pointer for me, do you meet other owners who knew before you took your course? How have they reacted? What do they think of the collar in the way you have been taught to use it? How is your dogs general relationship with since your course ? Did you have to use many corrections? Do you still use many corrections? Do you still use corrections often That and any other information you can offer would be gratefully received. Thank you for your time.
YapYap

Whhoooppss PS,

I occasionaly surf around a bit and seemingly I am labled a lurker, so I just want to reasure you that I will muster up as much intellegence that I am capable of to understand your reply in order to avoid a disastor ( such as yours ).

I must be unutterably stupid but I still don't know what drive stimulation training is. Unless I am missing something noboby has explained much just talked about ecollars. Please can someone enlighten me
Anne

Hi Cava,
My old trainer with my first dog used to talk about the drives, he did at the time get me stimulating pack drive but to be honest I think it was just terminology he always used and did not really give me any detail of what he meant. I never took a lot of notice of it at the time and Darren seems to understand it for application with his dog but not how to explain it, I wish in refelctionI had asked more but never reeally thought it meant much.
Whatever it is the results are outstanding to say the least, as far as I can make out the e collar replaces other corrections, I know they common place in US and Europe, but my thinking is that it's the quality of the trainer. I know my old trainer was like going into a different world. I would imagine any of these training aids are't really much use unless you get a pro in to show the techniques and from the way Darren writes all the advanced knowledge of the dog itself.
I must say in reflection that I knew more about my dog after the first lesson than all the time at a positive class, in fact I never learned anything there except never to try it again but this modern method clearly makes it easy for the dog to learn.

I should point out that there is in fact at this very moment a bill going thorugh parliament being put through by DEFRA to ban electric collars, so if it does get through then any trainer using it will in fact be doing so illegally.

I also know of 2 owners who use electric collars to get a reliable recall and it doesn't work, full stop. I'm not sure why, or what they have done, but one got hers to stop her Lab chasing deer and it doesn't work, the dog won't recall. The other one's dog just needs training and is one confused dog.

Some dogs have been known to bite if touched unexpectedly, after they have been trained on an e collar. Hardly surprising as even the static is quite an aversive, as my friend will testify who gets regular static shocks from taps - she stands for ages plucking up the courage to make a cuppa for her workmates. So its not all roses !!!

Drive stimulation isn't a particulalry modern method, as i understand it comes from dogs being used for serious manwork and schutzhund type control. I use drive stimulation in training positively, but just don't utilise all the drives and don't call it that :)

By the way, I am not saying the Dobe took 3 years to get to her standard, just that at 3 years she happened to win an award for it :)

Lindsay

hI Anne

The drive in the dog determines the degree of instinctive behaviour. I've attempted a rather feeble explanation previously, if you do a search under "drive stimulation" and "lindsay" and it's about the 3rd from the bottom in "CarolST ref :drive stimulation techniques".

Sorru useless at links and stuff, gave up doing them ages ago :D

Lindsay

Lindsay,
Thanks had a look, think I am using it without knowing I thought I might be:-) Let's see if I have it right, clicker is using food drive, toy on a long line would be prey/chase drive?
Anne

No Lindsey, someone has given you incorrect information on DEFRA. I know someone who works in DEFFRA and it was they who suggested to me to think about the E collar, apparently they have inspected them together with a UK trainer specialist together with a USA canine behaviourist with years of experience and who designed some models, and they also know the head vet of the RSPCA uses a fence which works on the same principle. I have been told the result of their studies on E collars has been very good. I was also told that anyone wishing to check out the validity of any issues claimed about DEFRA can simply call 0207 904 6286 and ask for suit 6.

Apart from and separate from that DEFRA does not put bills through parliament, I have just called the same friend and they say they have little to do with bills through parliament they just objectively study any issue put forward and then refer them to The Parliamentary Associate Group for Animal Welfare with their findings. What DEFRA are well aware of is that many people and organisations whose commercial intersts will be very severly hit by e collars have been responsible for making up false stories about them.

She says there never was much of an issue with the E collar although they did look at cattle prods, whatever they are, the e collar was brought into it and it was supported by scientific reports, a detailed copy of studies done by the Humane Society of USA and the Delta society USA a charity which trains therapy dogs and both those organisations don’t just support them they recommend them and have carried great weight at DEFRA who had little interest in the e collar anyway, especialy with the head vet of the RSPCA useing an equivilent fence system.

She also told me that they had been made aware by a peer of the realm that the Parliamentary Group had uncovered some kind of moves against e collars by concerns and organisations whose commercial interests would be severely hit by the success of the e collar, in fact put out of business completely and reading Darren’s success I think that speaks for itself.
Apparently RogerMug ford did not declare is commercial interests when he attended a meeting of the Welfare Committee last year sometime and spoke against them, he had been invited by David Rendal MP and as a result of his undeclared interests there was an immediate inquiry which revealed that Roger Mugford has the sole UK distribution rights for The abiostop, master plus and an equivalent hidden fence system and of course the static collar sytems would simply knock him out of the market and so Mugford was discredited and David Rendal said he never knew anything about it, but of course his association with Mugford and the undeclared intersts issue got Rendals name up for question and his motives seem to have raised many questions, he denied knowing Mugford had remote equivilent training systems, which apparently raised questions as to how much he actualy new about e collars and how much Mugford and others with soley commercial interests had been feeding Rendal. It was later found out that Mugford had sold e collars on the IOW and to someone in Norfolk.Make no mistake about it Parliamentary groups are no fools and if they feel someone has tried to use them for financial gain, which with Mugford, associated with Rendal was the case they do not take it lightly, undeclared interests is a very serious matter, it got rid of the Tories and they wil not forget that.
A peer took up the case and he made DEFRA aware that commercial concerns and individuals had tried to mislead The Associate Parliamentary Group on animal Welfare. I have just been given the name of who to write to verify what I have been told, it is Ian Cawsey, Associate Parliamentary Group on Animal Welfare, House of Commons, London SW1.
Also the consultations at DEFRA are hundreds of issues going on over a two year period and they will not be finished until April 2004 at that point they are sent to the Associate Parliamentary Group on Animal Welfare, London SW1.for intensive discussions. On all the issues and then when that’s finished in about 2005 they go to the commons for debate until heavens knows when, well it looks like the one I will probably will need upgrading to the newest model by then.

On top of all that before the House of Commons can pass a law there has to be grounds and there are no grounds, parliament does not have the time to deal with petty issues of whose dog training preferences should be taken notice of and lets face it Darren is the most successful trained person on here, I’m sure letters from people like him with his experience are what counts with any concerns and not those whose commercial interests, of which both parliament and DEFRA are fully aware, are threatened, don’t you agree?
All I want to know is Darren’s experience of them he has the experience as well as people he must have seen in his local parks.

Hi Yapyap,
It's not DEFRA putting the bill through parliament to ban ecollars (Animal Electric Shock Collars Bill), it's the MP for Newbury, David Rendell (Lib Dem). This was reported in the press on 13th Feb. The bill gained an unopposed first reading.

Edit: Electric cattle prods were banned in the UK many years ago.

Yes he has been trying it for about 8 years apparently I don't know how many times this is, they have to have grounds to bring in laws (not just dog issues any law) and they don't have them. I was told tonight that they got a whole load of USA sales figures set against any problems Human Society of US gave them some kinds of complicated reports and supported the fully.
There are a lot of private members bills go to parliament every week, of every kind but they hardly ever go anywhere even when there are some grounds but not enough grounds. It's something to do with the fact that if a court case arose the court would have to try it on the grounds it was passed under, I really don't understand that part much, it's also to do with Europe.
They did ban them in some countries only about two but those were not these collars, these collars were not out then.
The pit bull thing had so much evidence to support both abuse of the dogs serious incidents involving them in damaging people and other animals, but the reports collected by DEFRA on E collars were al substantially in favour no factual reports against.

What putting a private members bill through parliament actually means is that any MP, and a lot do it, asks during a quite period, when the commons is almost deserted can they have permission form the house to put their bill to the house, its a parliamentary formality, the speaker always grants them permission and it lies around with dozens of others and some law lord looks at the wording and then puts them back for amendments etc, its an everyday backbench MPs do, apparently Rendel has tried this one dozens of time over eight years and it just gets put back because it has never had any substance, especially now after Mugford got a wider investigation started as to the scale of a commercial misrepresentations which had been fed to Rendal over the years, according to him without his knowledge, he lost credibility with his case and was luck not to loose more.
I mean its common sense just look at Darren’s experience and compare to others on here and all Darren gets its a wonderful happy dog I'm sure with the hundreds of people like him to get wind of it and writing to their MP's about it the e collar will soon be subsidised by the government, I mean what a wonderful case, isn't it? Surely everyone must be pleased to see such an advancement in modern training methods, the dogs have so much benefit and what a healthier more fulfilling relationship with their owners, I still want to know how other dog owners in Darren’s areas feel about it as they must have known the before he met his trainer and now, some 4 weeks or lessons after, it really does highlight the difference between the pro trainers and these behaviourist failures all over the place doesn't it?

The fact that it passed the first reading unopposed must mean that many people have doubts about it.

Hi Jeanigeni
Yes thanks for the info I just got the copy of it from the address below, Rendal had big problems apparently last year with the Mugford connection, it seems the immediate enquiry was actualy started on Budget day, heavens that’s the last day they want to be bothered with animal training.

The following can be got from google, I typed in, Animal Electric Shock Collars Bill
__________________________
Yesterday in parliament
Staff and agencies
Thursday February 13, 2003
The Guardian

Animal electric shock collars "unnecessarily cruel" collars that give animals an electric shock in a bid to teach good behaviour. Liberal Democrat David Rendel, introducing his animals electric shock collars bill, said their sale and use should be outlawed because it was wrong to use "pain to discourage unwanted behaviour". His bill gained its first reading but stands no chance of becoming law.
___________________________________________

AM,
I just got this email.

Hi xxx,

I dug up some old notes on it and the studies by Human Society of United States and the DELTA therapy dogs charity were published in the Human Society of United States magazine called HSUS news in summer 1998 by L Staff veterinarian, Dr Lesley Sinclair.
Their studies support the anti bark collars, static fence systems and also REPUTABLE remote training systems in a reward based program, apparently their staff use them as well as rescue centres and the NFU also support them, in fact there is nothing negative about them at all.I know defra passed through this quite quickly as being just another dog training system with some recommendations that only ‘ the quality of the multi levels might be maintained’, whatever that means, hope this is useful.
‘night xxxxx

Yes I reckon so, Anne ;) That's how i see it anyway.

lindsay

I notice you say these courses/collars do not work Lindsey, have you actualy read through Darrens post? I also get the impression you run positive training classes which caused behavioural problems with my first bitch ( as well as Darrens dog ) untill I brought a trainer in to get her right, is it correct that you run what are known as positive training courses?

Sorry Ive expanded out this thread again due to space. I read the above re the parliamentary bill. I think I should point out that the first reading of a bill is the presentation. It is then typed up and moves onto the second reading. The first reading is a mere formality. Private Members' Bills are proposals for legislation affecting the powers of particular bodies, such as local authorities, or the rights of individuals. These are subject to a special form of parliamentary procedure. [source BBC]

I've done a bit of research here and I'm really interested to note that the MP concerned is quoted in interview as saying that he has never seen an ecollar and his understanding of it that an electrical charge passes through the body of the dog [WRONG]. His interest in this commenced when a constituient was appaulled to note adverts for "shock collars" in a local paper. In fact the static collars are the equivilent to a tingle on the skin between the two points. The charge does not travel. This is true of all modern collars. The old collars dating back to the 1950s were nasty and frankly appaulling passing current through the entire body and earthing! That is an awful device without merit in my opinion.

The reason I did a little bit of research into this was words such as "cruel" and "pain" seem to crop up when ecollars are mentioned. The RSPCA in Australia was ordered to pay £100,000 costs to Innotek, a manufacturer, for stating the dogs received 'painfull electric shocks' since its simply not true. The manufacturer of my own model, tri-tronics, gives the guidelines in both video and written form. You are not looking for a pain response from your dog when using one. The only level I use is that which is distracting to the dog - as advised by them as a core principal of use. The sensation is distracting - like pins and needles - its not at a level which is pain and would result in vocalisations, nervousness etc.

My reason for posting this is that I maintain that drive stimulation training is of significant benefit in cases where other training is simply not achieving any result due to the individual make up of a particular dog (for example high drive dogs). Reward - positive - or simply wishful thinking training :) is great - if it works with your dog. For some dogs however they need more. So its another option for a trainer pure and simple in those difficult cases.

I would never say rush out and get one now! Its simply not that easy and you need skills to understand which drive you are trying to stimulate and when and if a correction is in order. That was the hardest part for me. Professional training is vital to the sucess of the training method.

But I have a question for a few people if you dont mind - If you consider stimulation training via ecollar should not be available for whatever reason have you ever used/handled/personally witnesses in use the modern static collar ? I am having difficulty at the moment understanding what the objections are. Im sat here looking at the equipment, my superdog ;) and having used this equipment on myself I simply cant find any reasonable objection to its use. I can see how the theory would scare people - and me too - until its demonstrated.

All the manufactures have sued people sucessfully (not a single case has even been upheld) for anybody stating they are cruel or inflict pain. My own personal experiences show an entirely different result from the use of the equipment and in the first week we used it on ourselves and not him to understand its use (yes - it was very funny). So Im at a bit of a loss to understand the objection in the first place.

If somebody with personal experience of using one can answer that would be great. The problem is I think with public conception of what it is and how it is used. I'd love a remote control dog - but if I want one then I'd have to nip down to the toy shop because this wont do it for anybody ) I must again stress that this is not for every dog and its just another tool in some circumstances.

Dont worry Im not trying to be argumentative - I just want to understand why people feel this way about it - based on thier experiences. I can accept that some people have different opinions to mine :) You dont even want to know my opinions about politicians LOL Apologies for length.

Daren

Hi Daren

I would love to see your dog in action and as I have to come to the Bromley area to meet a friend within the next couple of months wonder if we could meet up for a walk

Christine

HI Daren

There are lots of people on here who train in different ways, my way is "positive" as i have mentioned above.I suspect many on here train in a similar way. I am so confident in this method that I believe that any difficult, "high drive" dog (I think my dog has high drives you see <g> ) can still be taught using these methods. It may take longer but at the end of the day, with the right help, it will happen :) One of the above posters seems to think speed is of the essence, but would we train a child at school the same way to get speedy results? Hopefuly not

If you're interested to read some interesting views from a top trainer on why it is possible to train a high drive dog using behavioural training, including the clicker, take a peek at the magazine "Teaching Dogs". In it, from copy 1, Nina Bondarenko, who is now the training manager for Canine Partners for Independence, explains in detail why it is actually better to ttrain a dog for manwork in say, Schutzhund (lets go right to the top where most pro trainers like to use their drive theories!) by positive training based on a programme which assumes that the Drive theory simply does not take into account all the other stimuli which are apparent in a dog's life, nor does it take inot account complexities which exist such as relative value theory, avoidance learning, and reinforcement theory. This lady used to train with Rotties and GSd's for Schutzhund in the 1970's and now trains all dogs +'ly :)

She writes in 4 issues and goes into advantages and disadvantages of drive theory, and talks about how to get a good "full mouth" plus a good release. Now Daren, if a dog in this state of high stimulation with his mouth full of arm-in-sleeve can be taught to do this without an e collar or sole use of DST as used by pro trainers, then positive training must be pretty good somewhere along the line.

If you are interested i will gladly send you the magazine details, it is primarily a clicker mag in fact <g>.

Just a last word, and this probablly will be my last word on the subject <g>. An unexpected static, "shock", tingle, whatever, IMHO is a BIG aversive. I hate getting an unexpected shock from my car.The level of tingle can be adjusted if the dog still doesnt respond, to be higher. The reason no single case of cruelty has ever been upheld is possibly because it cannot reasonably be "proved" as there are no marks, bruises or obvious wounds.

i understand why you don't understand (if you see what i mean!?) but perhaps it's one of those things that is hard to put into words.

Lindsay

<<<The reason no single case of cruelty has ever been upheld is possibly because it cannot reasonably be "proved" as there are no marks, bruises or obvious wounds.>>>

This got a bit lost up there, so I'll post it again.

Albeit this is in the US :

Admin added:link warning

http://www.gsdring.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=25;t=000118

Oh my goodness Jacqui :(

I am horrified - to anyone wondering why, please take the trouble to take a look.

Jacqui, i actually had no idea that this could happen and that such terrible wounds could come from an electric collar, thankyou for posting that. I am sadly not surprised the dog was passed about and also that he ws in the hands of a - hmm - trainer out there in the US :(

Do you feel this is one of the newer collars? I am assuming it is the older one that would have given the "zap" rather than the "static". Or not?

The posts are dated recently, this year. Poor baby, thank goodness he is now safe. Bless him.

LIndsay

I think everyone who pushes these collars should see these pictures. I have heard of burning but never seen anything as terrible as this! I don't know why but as soon as someone mentions Drive Stimulation, out of the woodwork comes the, "Lets plug our dogs into the mains!" brigade. Basically Drive Stimulation training means utilising the dogs naural instinctive reactions. Those of us who think about what we do have been doing this years before the "Catch Phrase Crowd" invented the name. What Drive Stimulation training does not mean is training the dog through pain.

I'll state my position here and now. I have no time for anyone who pushes the use of these collars as as standard means of training!

Daren,

Has the chewing plaster stopped ? Has the jumpin up stopped and the nipping? These are things that the trainer probably did not see - so did the trainer leave you with a collar to leave on the dog for you to zap as and when you saw fit?

Why do you want a down stay at 50 metres for a pet dog? Why not just a common old recall to you. Do you do competitive work and want to short cut the hard and dedicated work it takes to attain this goal through positive methods?

I myself have a puppy dobermann (now 6 months) - he can do sit down stand and stay for short period and walk to heel inside the hall that i go to for training - all through positive training. (which i advocate) . I have to say though that this method is not working at home with the nipping and jumping or heeling when out on a lead - so then he is wacked with newspaper on thigh and checked with a chain when out walking - which seems to work bit better .

WE probably have one very confused dog.

I couldn't use an electric collar on my dog but my husband who has a dog for prison service would if he could because a lot of the dogs they get are very difficult dogs given up to rescue centres or donated to them. He says that if a collar could be used to achieve the results you say in four lessons he would use it especially for the running recall from a criminal - saving dog getting hold of someones arm - but he cannot and has to use other corrective measures which take a lot longer for dog to learn.

I wonder why prison dogs and police dogs cannot be trained using these methods - perhaps they have had the experience of using them in past and have seen the ill effects which might be caused (injuries) and have decided to ban their use - after all they would have seen the effects on a large scale and not just one positive result on one dog.
Karen.

Electric collars were used by both the police and prison services. These were not available for common use but kept at training establishments for modifying extreme behaviour.
These are now voluntarily banned by the services and handlers are prohibited from using them. Prong collars are also banned.
Most handlers would not consider their use but prefer to train using positive reward. More to the point though is the fact that the selection of the dogs for acceptance into these services has changed as well. Dogs are now licensed annually and have to maintain a high standard of performance to pass this. Dogs which are OTT are now rejected at selection rather than trying to train them using extreme measures.
Lara x

Hi Darren, I had a talk with your trainer today and he can see me a week this Friday, he also sent a copy of his contract. He certainly seems to want to meet you before he will take you on though, I suppose thats maybe because of the contract, basicaly he said there is nothing he can do for anyone unles they work on it AND "I would know if they have not worked with their dog", but he did sound very nice.

I also noticed what Lindsey said about some dogs have been known to bite ing unexpectedly after they had been trained on an E collar, I just checked the behaviour thread as far as the first 9 posts available just now and of those 9 posts 3 were biteing problems, one biteing the owners and one had a behaviouist in, the other two are given treats, so withj such a high percentage all on positive training and al biteing it seems that 35% treat training dogs some with behaviourist intervention have biteing problems.

I look forwards to meeting your trainer Darren, I wish he could make it sooner. I am now going to phone up some E collar companies.

Oh by the way, just one question. In veiw of what Lindsey said about biting and what you have said about you yourself being trained by useing it on you (he told me that as well )can you tell me TRUTHFULLY, have you started biting the neighbours?

I thought this was a serious thread but I see from the above post that it is just a silly child! Arr well, never mind. I'll move on to a more sensible thread :(