Hi,

I have een reading and researching like crazy, but I am so confused about the best time to mate two dogs.

I'm hoping someone here can answer me in plain English lol.

If my girl first started bleeding 11 days ago (Wednesday), stopped bleeding two days agao (Friday of the following week) When would her ovulation occur? I was told that Saturday would be classed as day 10 and 10-14 are the best days to mate.

Is this right?

I am completely confused about when day 10 is now as I have read other sources that say the day after there is no blood is considered day 1 not the first day of a bleed....

Please help.

When day 10 is - is totally irrelevant.   How much blood there is - is irrelevant.

I've had bitches ovulate on day 4 - and on day 28.  I have to say that, in 45 plus years, most of my bitches have bled throughout the whole process, until the end of their normal season.  Normal season being different for each individual bitch.

If "the book" says mate on day 10 - 14, be assured that your bitch has never read "the book."

With the greatest respect, you are not ready to mate any bitch.  Are you experienced in whelping a bitch who is having difficulties?  Would you know when it was life threatening, and an emergency C-section was on the cards?  I'm not trying to scare you, I'm being realistic.

Please find yourself an experienced mentor, who can be with you once your bitch goes into labour.  This is imperative for the safety of your bitch.  As to mating,, find a very experienced stud dog owner.  They will know when your bitch is ready, and will be able to assist her in the actual mating.  I always take responsibility for the bitch when someone uses one of my boys. 

Do get yourself "The book of the bitch" you will find it quite cheaply online.

I hope that you will think twice about risking your girl until you have found a mentor.

Thank you for your reply. I think we might need to find a more experienced stud dog/owner.

I have a friend (well mother of my son's friend) who used to be a veterinary nurse and has also bred her own dogs a couple of times, so she is happy to help out with the pregnancy checks and has said she will assist in labour.

The reason I am asking questions, is to learn. Although I can ask her questions, I don't want to feel like I am pestering her constantly and so thought I would join a forum where any questions I have inbetween speaking to her, I can ask here. I have read and researched as much as I can, but sometimes it helps to ask Thank you for the book recommendation - don't forget we are all new to something once.

I am trying to learn as I go and currently we have left our girl with the male. I am wondering about the days, as I need to make a decision: I need to decide whether to go back and collect her today and then take her back next weekend, or whether to leave our beloved girl there all week. We don't know the guy and I am not sure I want to leave her there all week, but unfortunately I can't get there through the week.... so, if there is a chance of them mating I will bite the bullet and leave her.

Could you ask the stud dogs owner to help you get her ovulation tested?  After all, it is in his interest as well that your bitch gets in whelp and will stress both dogs out less

Thank you Ells Bells.

Naively, we both (us and stud owner) assumed we would stick them together and they would get the job done lol. Well we weren't that blasé about it all, but you get what I mean. Dogs are often getting out for an hour and ending up pregnant... yet when you are 'trying' to get them pregnant it seems a mammoth undertaking.

I am leaving our girl there another night or two.

Unless you progesterone test you won't know when she ovulated. Some bitches can be really early and some really late and each season can be different.
You need to get bloods taken and sent to idexx unless the vets can do it and progesterone test.
Some bitches bleed all the way through and some don't. Some bleed beyond mating and some don't.

A good stud dog owner should have requested this so not to cause stress to both dogs and waste anyones time as well.

Thank you Suejaw,

He wasn't aware of this process as it is also his first time. Lesson learned all around I think

I am not necessarily planning on become an intensive breeder. We want a pup, as does the stud owner. My mum and sister also want one each. I did read about ovulation testing, but didn't think it was important to do and, again being naive, thought that the numerous websites and 'people in the know' were right when they talked about breeding between days 10-15ish...

Thank you to those who have replied without too much judgement. I love learning and am more than happy to be pointed in the right direction.

Usually when the bleeding stops or slows up a lot, is a good sign that you're around the fertile period so if you can try, it's good to try around then. 

If you have regular access to the stud, just try every 2 days and you will be sure to try during the fertile time.  You may not know it's the fertile time, however - and there can be reasons two dogs don't want to mate even when it's during this time....(!).  So that's not a guarantee of getting matings.  But if the stud is experienced and the bitch is fertile, you will usually be ok.

Ovulation testing can be helpful if you have a bitch who ovulates way outside the norm (early or late) or if you only have very limited access to the stud and need to time your visits precisely.  If the stud owner is committed to achieving a breeding, and you can try frequently, then it's less important. 

Why haven't you just put them together to try?

Thank you for the reply onetwothreefour.

I forgot to say in original post. The dogs are together, she is having a sleepover at his house as we speak... We went yesterday with her just to visit. It is an hour and half drive and we got out the car and knocked on the door. The guy came out with his dog and we took them onto the field right next to his house. Our girl was too interested in having a wee and exploring her new surroundings. His boy was trying to mount her immediately, but she was wary of him and his owner, and just kept running over to us. It was the afternoon and the weather had become really hot, we all know what newfs are like in the heat lol. He ended up just sitting down huffing and puffing after about 20 minutes of chasing her round....

Anyway, roll on another hour, by which time we had gone back to his house and got them water etc... Our girl then starting trying to mount and hump him!! She kept pawing him and trying to get him interested, but he was just too hot and just flopped lol. He completely lost interest.

We tried a few times to get them interested in each other again, but it just wasn't happening.

We decided to leave her overnight and we have had the same reports... She is humping him, but he doesn't seem interested in her now!

We have decided to leave her again tonight and will see what the cooler mornings and evenings bring, as he might liven up a bit then.

Any ideas? Should we just leave her the week? The stud owner was talking about AI, but I would prefer to avoid that if possible...

It was the behaviour of the two dogs that made me question the dates.

I would also like to add that I didn't read the intricacies of giving birth to, and raising babies, but I have managed that four times while learning as I go, so I would like avoid anyone else telling me not to breed my girl I am doing my best to ask questions, to read and research and I am set on making sure my girl will be properly cared for and the puppies properly cared for, just as I have done my own children She is part of the family and I will do anything to make all this as easy as possible for her.

I just need to get her pregnant first and I appreciate all the help and advice from you knowledgeable people in here

I’d be very wary leaving my girl with an inexperienced stud dog owner, they will be big dogs and are likely to need assistance with the mating.  Has your research included health testing? Both dogs should be hip scored, elbow scored, dna tested for CU and ideally heart tested?

Has the dog been used at stud before? With respect, not meaning to sound rude, it sounds as if none of you know what you're doing; managing a mating so that neither dog gets stressed or injured isn't always straightforward!

The usual way is to allow the bitch time to wee after her journey, and then introduce her (off lead) to the dog (on lead). Once they've done a bit of flirting and the bitch is relaxed with him, the dog can be let off the lead so they can both make further advances. When the bitch is beginning to stand for him, she should be out back on the lead, and you as her owner should stand in front of her, steadying her head. The dog owner can be gently supporting her under her belly to stop her sitting down as the dog mounts and penetrates - this is when maiden bitches often pull away because, although they're willing, it's a very strange feeling! After a couple of minutes the dog will probably need help turning, and this is when both dogs often need steadying and holding so that neither of them tries to pull away too soon.

I'm assuming both dogs have passed all the tests needed to make sure they're unlikely to pass poor health to their puppies?

I agree with Jeangenie.

Generally, IF you are going to get a mating that day, you get one within 30mins.  If you let the dogs remain together beyond that time, it becomes counter-productive - they just get bored of each other or the male stops trying and gives up. 

Second, the bitch needs her collar to be held and she may attempt to turn around or even snap at the male at penetration.  Whoever is holding her head needs to know about that and to prevent it so he can get on with his job.  (You will know if she really isn't ready as compared to just having a momentary snap at him, believe me - he will not be able to breed her and she will not calm down if she's not ready - a quick snap or sudden jump is different to prolonged distress.) 

If you live near the stud dog owner, I wouldn't leave the bitch there (although I know some experienced breeders do - Brainless/Barbara does - but they are leaving them with experienced stud owners to manage the mating, not someone who doesn't really know what they're doing). 

If you have to leave the bitch there, then really they need to be separated whilst at the stud's house except for attempts at breeding.  This will see novelty rekindle and desire rebuild with hopefully a mating when they are united again. 

When they are brought together, the bitch should go in the garden alone and have a wee (as Jeangenie says) and be given a few minutes to explore by herself.  Then you should go and put her leash on and be ready to take hold of her collar for more control at any moment.  The stud owner should bring out the stud and if she's ready, she should stand pretty quickly for him.  You continue to hold her collar throughout and reassure her and after the male has ejaculated, the stud owner will help him dismount and turn and will then hold his collar until the tie finishes. 

What you're attempting all sounds very unstructured and unmanaged there, and whilst it might work for some dogs, it simply won't for many others in the limited time they have to figure things out before she goes over. 

Especially if you have a giant breed and given the weather is warm, you need to be very efficient with your use of time to secure a breeding.

> I’d be very wary leaving my girl with an inexperienced stud dog owner,

Me too, would be worried to death, knowing how things can go wrong.

Just tagging on to the end here. My breed is considerably smaller but it still can take 3 people to manage to hold the dogs once tied, as bitches can panic and try to pull away.  I'd never even consider a mating of anything bigger than toys without at least two people present. The bitch not having her owner there can make it even harder.

I agree Goldmali.  I've supervised maiden toy bitches who have tried to turn somersaults once tied.  No joke, given the damage they can do to the stud.  People don't stop to think of the dangers of mating.

Being neither owner nor dog have any experience with breeding can you find a breeder who can assist.
I would want both on collars and leads. Owner of the bitch holds her girl, owner of the stud holds his boy and then the experienced person can assist in guiding him in and then if the bitch is a little wary holding him in place or if she is fine turning the male so they are back to back or side by side if they tie.
I would also think about having the male on his own territory not a field which by the sounds of it can be accessed by anyone. Use the back garden or house he lives in.

> I would also like to add that I didn't read the intricacies of giving birth to, and raising babies, but I have managed that four times while learning as I go,

Thing is you had a midwife doctors etc who did know what they are doing.

When you mate your bitch you are putting her in danger if you do not know what your doing as you will be her midwife.

Is your bitches breeder available.  Have you checked that there are no restrictions on her papers preventing puppies being registered, as most good breeders put these on, so that any breeding plans can be discussed with them.

It is important to know the bloodlines, to ensure that the two dogs being mated together are least likely to throw up problems in the pups.

Have you had the health testing done, which is mega important, especially with a giant breed where any orthopaedic issues are magnified due to size. Owners are very quick to take a breeder to court should a pup end up with a hereditary issue that could have been prevented by testing.

When we decide to breed we have a huge responsibility to the pups, their new owners and the breed.  After all we do not sell our children on to other people.

As for this mating, it is usually best that one of the dogs is experienced, and at least one of the owners, though with luck mating and pregnancy can be achieved. The reason dogs that escape or when dogs access a bitch when not wanted, is that they have picked the peek fertile period as the dogs will know.

I do leave my girls with the stud or have the stud visit me, but I know the stud owners well, and either they or I are experienced, and mine is a very natural medium size breed, so a lot easier to mate.

I’m the same as u im a new breeder some of the comments received were not helpful as we all have to learn and start some were as many of the breeders did once! Good luck and hope all works out for you and your bitch

> I’m the same as u im a new breeder some of the comments received were not helpful as we all have to learn and start some were as many of the breeders did once!

That is why, if wise and caring,  we rely on someone with knowledge and experience until we gain sufficient ourselves.

We do all have to start somewhere, but breeding like many things is something that requires experience.

You would not suggest that someone who has never driven a car be let loose on a Motorway, or any road until they had the relevant experience.

Birth and breeding for us and animals is a risky time, and sadly both mothers and offspring can die.

The risks can be reduced with knowledge and experience.

When I bred for the first time I had both the breeder my bitch and the owner of the stud with decades of experience on the end of the phone, and also a local breeder of another breed on standby who came to assist during labour and birth.

I did the same for a newbie fellow breeder, stayed all night with them and their bitch and helped him with the whelping.  I was always on the phone for the next time when he was confident to handle things mostly by himself. I could advise if things were going well with pups or if he needed a vet.

Ditto to Brainless on every point. I had a lot of help from experienced breeders for my first two litters, and now I'm there for any puppy buyer of mine that goes down the road of breeding.

Thank you Barbara for posting what I really wanted to.