Hi

We've been on the champdogs waiting list since January awaiting a cream/white labrador bitch. So many are fox red or are bred at the other end of the country. So it's taken until now to finally find one who is cream/white. She has been sired by a well-known showline Sire with perfect elbow and hip scores.
He's white/golden in colour, while the dam is a black labrador.
She's had 4 pups, two black, one cream and one golden.
However, she has an elbow scores of 1 and 2 (so 2).
Some serendipitous information - the pup's birthday is the same day as my other half and she's available for collection on my daughter's birthday.
She just feels like the right pup for us, but I keep coming back to the elbow score.
We won't be breeding from her. She's going to be a family pet and playmate for our 3 year old black lab.
However, I know the advice is not to choose a puppy unless both parents elbow scores are 0 or 1 maximum.
That said, she seems to be a daddy's girl and take after the Sire (given her colour) - So I'm hopeful that she will inherit his perfect 0 elbows and good hips.
Also, I know from speaking with a couple of breeders that they've had pups from parents with perfect hip and elbow scores who've gone on to develop dysplasia and had pups from parents with higher scores which haven't.
It feels right to get her, given the serendipity and that it's taken us this time to find her, but then I think about the general advice of opting for a pup with BOTH parents have a zero elbow score' suggestions.
Given that she takes after the sire in colour and he has sired so many litters (and surely his owner would want all his litters to be good) so wouldn't have bred with her if they deemed it problematic, and given the serendipity, I feel that we should go for her and get good insurance.
Would value some expert opinion.
The rest of the family have their heart set on her.

There is absolutely no way I would ever take a pup bred from parents with elbow scores above 0.  Hip scores, research suggests are slightly less genetic or have more environmental influence.  Elbow scores are VERY genetic and elbow issues are horrendous, causing a huge amount of pain to affected dogs.

And I would say exactly the same even if her score were 0/1.  1/2 is incredibly high, for an elbow score. 

Furthermore, a breeder who has bred from a dog with elbow scores that high IS NOT A REPUTABLE BREEDER.  What is the point of choosing a health-tested litter if the health testing has revealed a defect which can't be compensated for and the breeder has gone ahead and bred anyway??? 

A bitch with elbow scores of 1/2 should never be bred from.  Probably her siblings should never be bred from, whatever their own individual scores are. 

Lastly, I cannot believe your sole criteria for a puppy, is the colour.  And that having a white/cream puppy which is somehow 'magically' meant to be, is more important to you than health test results.

That's what stumped me as the Sire comes from a well-known breeder who has sired a great many litters.
Also, something else I was taking into consideration is the fact that the dam has only recently (age 3) been elbow tested. (This is her only litter). And, although the majority of litters listed on Champdogs do seem to have 0 elbow scores, many times these scores seem to be from tests from around 3-5 years ago (and a lot can change in that time).

Hip & elbow scores don't changes with age. Current BVA guidance is for only dogs with 0 elbow scores should be bred from, especially in breeds with a large gene pool like Labradors. There is no  reason to breed from a bitch with a 2 elbow score.

Why desire for a colour paled pup ?

2/1 is a very bad score - I wouldn't part with any money for the pup and would think hard if offered it for free quite frankly!

Been thinking about this and would like to ask a question
If u have a dog that is perfect re health etc except for elbows as in this case and a sire or dam for that matter that has excellent elbows would it still be considered wrong?
Thinking could adding good to not so good be ok as a dog is more than just its elbows ? .
I get that un this case there is a large gene pool but un other situations ?
Hope that makes some sense

Have you ever owned a dog with severe ED ? A GSD belonging to a relative was from a 0 male & 2:1= 2 female. By the time the litter was 15 months old 6 out of the 8 puppies had to have corrective surgery, so er no wouldn't touch with a bargepole a puppy from such a breeding. The parents had good health results in everything else, including very low hip scores, beautiful dogs, good characters etc, sadly bad elbow scores

No, I wouldn't. I have a FTCh dog here (not labrador, spaniel) with 1/1 elbows who has had PRP and Arthroscopy for his elbow dysplasia to the tune of nearly 3.5k at only 5yo. His hips are 2/3, all DNA tests clear and clearly he's proven himself in the field. He's also been graded Excellent in the Irish KC showing scheme winning his only show ring appearance. I castrated him. I would never pass the pain he suffered on to another dog by breeding from him. He's not "fixed" with surgery, we're just improving things for him

No but I am well aware of how bad ed can be. I was just considering the theory in a more general way and not just with ed

This is a good question because the Sire has had a long history of siring many healthy litters - all with healthy hip and elbow scores. He has a score of 0 for both hips and elbows himself and when sired with a dam with a higher than average hip score, brought the puppies hip scores down to single digits. I understand that the ideal case scenario is to choose puppies from parents who both have a 0 score, but it has been reported that some dams with a 2 or 1 hip score can have that score diluted by mating with a super healthy sire with 0 scores, such as this Sire.

Of course there are also reports of puppies from 0 scored parents ending up with problems.

And those who choose rescue dogs or Lab Trust dogs often take in dogs with no health tests.

I guess the bottom line is, these puppies have been bred and need homes. The owner of the dam is keeping one themselves. We could decide not to take the risk and wait for a dog where both parents have 0 elbow scores, or we could take the risk, get good insurance to cover costs and hope that there has been some dilution of the problem as a result of the super healthy Sire offsetting the higher elbow score of the dam.

It's a head vs heart battle for me.

The head is paying attention to the earlier post about 6 out of 8 puppies having problems. But the heart is thinking that someone needs to take in these puppies and there is a likelihood of dilution. Plus, the elbow score could be as a result of environmental factors rather than genetics.

I guess the bottom line is, these puppies have been bred and need homes.

Quite the opposite. The ONLY way of making sure that this breeder never does such a catastrophic mating again is to REFUSE to buy the pups! Let them get stuck with all four.

If you read the small print of insurances, I think you will find that many, if not all, will NOT pay out for a condition that could have been prevented -which this could have been.

Years ago I was in a similar situation, although in my case it was a Golden Retriever and I did not find out until after I had collected the pup that the mother had a very bad hip score. Her score was 30/30. The breeder's excuse was that she had used "a known hip improver" stud dog, with a low score, so the pups would be fine. My dog ended up with severe HD and a score of 48/48. So much for taking after his sire.......

Please don't encourage a breeder like this, refuse the pup and tell them why. Remember you could end up with a pup that needs surgery before it's even a year old, and you may have to pay out thousands. Even then you can't be sure it will have a normal life span.

Direct quote from the BVA: Responsible breeders should select their breeding stock (both dogs and bitches) only from animals with elbow grades of 0.
That's from: https://www.bva.co.uk/canine-health-schemes/elbow-scheme/

Haven't experienced ED but after watching my Lab with bad hips struggle to walk I'm never getting a puppy from untested parents again (I was young and didn't know better). It's not about the money - I didn't insure and happily paid for anything she needed, but seeing her go from a healthy fit adult who would happily run miles to a stiff achy senior who couldn't make it to the end of the road broke my heart.

These breeders deliberately bred a bitch with terrible elbows knowing there was a chance that the pups would suffer something similar. There's no way I'd touch them with a barge pole. What's so special about the bitch that it was worth the risk of creating dogs that would suffer when there are a so many good Labs out there with good elbows?

My opinion is that health and temperament have to come above everything else, certainly way above coat colour or the convenient timing of this litter.

ED is very strongly genetical far more so than HD. I have a friend with a Labrador Show Champion with a 1 ED score, he will never be bred from.

Sorry but this breeder should never have bred from the bitch & to buy a puppy is encouraging them & others to disregard the ED results & pass on the condition.

No one should ever take risks with the health of dogs & to buy a puppy with the history these have just because it's a desired colour is crazy.  What happens if your puppy develops severe ED & needs an insurance funded operation/treatment ? Will they pay out as you bought the puppy knowing the risk of ED ?

> would think hard if offered it for free quite frankly!

Agree.

My friend is a dog walker and we walk together every day.

One of her clients dogs is the most wonderful chocolate lab bitch, fantastic temperament, good looking, but she has already had to be operated on for elbow dysplasia at 3 years of age. She is an active bitch who enjoys lots of excersise which as time goes on she will be less able to enjoy.

She came from an untested dam, a pet litter, as they were not 'breeders' they didn't test (I hate that one, if you breed s litter, even just one, then your a breeder asnd shoudl do it properly, no excuses for irresponsible breeding).

I have bred all my own dogs except the first (who was responsbily bred), and seriously could not afford the risk of buying one with spotty/unknown health history.

Veterinary treatment wven for quite minor issues is incredibly expensive as is good Pet Insurance.  More and more often Insurance will exclude anything that could be considered pre existing. Niow with every dog requiring to be chipped, I am sure Insdurance companies will keep track of chip numbers when they get claimns to be sure the dog truly has had no history.

If you’ve watched any of the Supervet programs then you will have seen how many dogs requiring elbow surgery have been seen on the shows, goodness knows how many dogs there are that we don’t see.
These poor dogs come in very lame and in pain at a young age in a number of cases, have the operation and although are out of pain they are not walking and running with normal grace and freedom of a dog with no elbow problems. Arthritis will be a later issue too
These operations are hugely expensive and can’t be done by your vet, they need specialist orthopaedic vets. Insurance’s may well be difficult about paying for the operation if they discover that the dogs mother scored badly in the elbow health tests, and insurance companies may well investigate hard before paying out. Could you afford to pay something like £5000+ per leg?

Labradors are not a rare breed and there are plenty for sale every year who will have been bred from dogs with perfect heath tests. Do you really want to take the risk of buying from this breeder and having a puppy who is in a lot of pain for most of its life?

I’m wondering if your decision is being led by other members of your family and not wishing to upset them.

Let your head rule, you know it’s the right thing to do

Very difficult one, hip and elbow problems are only partly genetic, diet and type of exercise play their part. 

Even the 'best bred' puppy can have issues.  I had a dog from a long line of 0 elbow scored parents, who wasn't allowed on furniture, to jump in the car, sensible exercise routine as well as a good diet - had a score of 3-3. 

He has been successfully shown - so no obvious signs of lameness/pain.  He's a very chunky dog but I try and keep his weight down as much as possible.  He will not be castrated as I believe that can cause joint issues.  He is now over 5 and a very happy boy.

Sp surely it is best to stack the odds in yoru and the dogs favour,a nd especially not encourage the breeder to breed from stock with poor heaklth results.

I castrated mine at 5yo - at that point joints are fully formed and there's no negative effect to castrating. He was also being rehomed to a friend (who is a vet) as a working pet and it suited better for him to be neutered as she has an entire bitch already

"Health and temperament have to come above everything else, certainly way above coat colour or the convenient timing of this litter."

I agree. And thank you everyone for your words of wisdom. I think my gut instinct (and brain) were telling me she's not the right pup for us and, like you've said there are plenty of healthy yellow labradors out there and we don't have a deadline for getting one. Would be good to get one in June or July so will keep my eyes open and take your advice.

Indeed a healthy yellow dog pup has become available.
We currently have a female black lab so had wanted a yellow bitch but she is spayed so am now open to considering a dog. I've had a male choc lab rescue dog before and he was adorable.

Thanks again everyone.

Warm wishes for a wonderful weekend.

In terms of Labs there is no way and no reason to breed from high elbows. There is enough genetic diversity to only breed from 0 or 1 only. Even 1 is high considering the large numbers bred in the breed.

The BVA consider ED to be way more genetic that HD, this is why they recommend that only 0 scored dogs are bred from

> We currently have a female black lab so had wanted a yellow bitch but she is spayed

Why are you worried about her being spayed I wonder?

Why are you worried about her being spayed I wonder?

They aren’t worried about her being spayed, they’re saying they can take a male puppy since their bitch is spayed and seasons won’t be an issue.

> <br />They aren’t worried about her being spayed, they’re saying they can take a male puppy since their bitch is spayed and seasons won’t be an issue.

Ok    Something got lost, for me, in translation.....

UPDATE - Thanks all. We have now FOUND A PUPPY from a reputable breeder with a 0 elbow score from BOTH parents (phew!) Also with balanced low hip scores from both parents.
Health and temperament have come first in this choice and the added bonus is that he is the same lovely cream colour that the girl we liked was. We're meeting him at the weekend. So glad I followed by gut instinct and posted on here for advice. Thanks again.

I have two Golden Retrievers that I bred from clear parents. They were xrayed at the same time. Their hip scores are good and one of the girls had a 0 elbow score, the other had a score of 3. The radiologist could not see the problem and she does the xrays all day and every day. The vets could not see the problem and I have studied the plates and compared both. I still am unable to see the difference. I appealed to the BVA which was turned down.  I then sent the xrays to the Orthapaedic Foundation of America.  The certificate came back stating no Elbow dysplasia.  The BVA are refusing to remove her markings from the KC website.  I appreciate that OFA do not send results to the American Kennel Club until the dog is xrayed at 2 years old.
They do a preliminary marking to enable breeders to plan future matings.  I intend to have her xrayed again at 2 years and will await the results before any decisions are made about breeding.

You sometimes hear of things like this and it sounds so tough for the owner to get the BVA to reconsider ANYTHING.  I guess they don't want to open the floodgates...

You could always get her scored under another system like OFA or PennHip and even if you can't get the score removed from the KC website, you can always provide those scores to anyone interested in pups and publicise that... It would also help if you look at the EBV for her too - does she have a low EBV for elbows?

PennHIP is a scheme for hips only, not elbows.

Oh, well just OFA then....

How well do you know the breeding behind this mating? Have previous generations all been elbow scored?

I appealed to the BVA which was turned down.  I then sent the xrays to the Orthapaedic Foundation of America.  The certificate came back stating no Elbow dysplasia.  The BVA are refusing to remove her markings from the KC website.  I appreciate that OFA do not send results to the American Kennel Club until the dog is xrayed at 2 years old.
They do a preliminary marking to enable breeders to plan future matings.  I intend to have her xrayed again at 2 years and will await the results before any decisions are made about breeding. ;

Interesting, as the scheme used for Elbows is international.  You could even have the plates assessed in a European country to give you more clout.  Make sure to use the original x-rays if arguing the case with BVA.

Having read all posts regarding ELBOW DYSPLASIA I have found it is quite a minefield of advice and suggestion re  X-ray assessment with very few arguing for error- only opinions drawn from a 'blanket outlook' of beliefs.  So much is dictated by Mother Nature and/or outside influences......something this forum refuses to take on board.
KOSHIE2: Clear parents but one pup has a score of 0, a sibling has a score of 3 and yet ORTHOPAEDIC FOUNDATION OF AMERICA found both Xrays scored 0.  I had a male with a score of 1 from BVA who covered 4 of my bitches with scores of 0 and I have not one report of any issues over 3 years.  It's all about 'outbreeding' not trying to change breeding practices in an instant.  Good luck with your campaign to question BVA results.  SPRINGWELL:  You rehomed your dog.  Without hip & elbow scores and as a working dog to the new owner? Not completely DNA Tested at the time - only what was advisable then or none at all? Do you see your rehomed Dog 3/4 times per week as I do with mine who are only 800yds away? Oh and did you consider Sleeping_lion's demand that 'conformity' is every thing for a working dog.  Seems only 'show people' consider this essential but something they are now insisting every breeder should follow.  SUEJAW:  So in April 2019 it was still deemed OK to breed from a dog with a score total of 1 (not high) yet  you took on a spaniel with 1/2 (top end of the rickter scale = 3)? BRAINLESS:  When you talk about 'all of your dogs' you obviously have more than one.  Does that mean you intend more than 3 litters this year and have the perfect facilities to follow animal welfare guidelines as I do?  I was asked by Sleeping_lion on your forum if I pay my taxes (answer was yes) and was also taken exception to by him for being a Licensed Breeder.  Are you going to pay the annual £345 licence fee + £300 Vet Inspection for licensing if my suspicions are correct about your number of dogs/litters?  SILVERLEAF:  You were inexperienced and didn't know about health testing for dogs when you bought your first.  Well welcome to my world when 5 years ago I knew nothing about testing either when I bred with my inherited dogs. All of my Dogs have been tested at the appropriate time over the period that Kennel Club Guidelines are issued for the Breed have been so spare a thought for us responsible breeders (hobby or commercial) that put what we can into place as things evolve.  SUPERIORITY & HIPOCRACY OBVIOUSLY REIGN WITHIN THIS FORUM... I'm sure that's why the 'PUPPY FARM BLOG' has been taken down after my complaints about being trolled by you all.

The difference is, I didn’t breed my untested bitch so I’m not responsible for puppies with an increased likelihood of problems.

Honestly after my experience with that Labrador I would only ever get a puppy from parents who had very good hips and perfect elbows, because watching Summer go from excited for a walk to “can we go home now please, my hips hurt” within 10 minutes was heartbreaking.

Anyone want to guess how long it will be before this thread gets deleted as well?

Hoggie, Brainless has several dogs, but that's because she keeps them all and doesn't rehome them when she's had as many litters as she can from them. A litter every year or two, perhaps. Like many of us here, we have several bitches, some of whom will never be bred from, but they still all live with us as house pets. So your suspicions are way off the mark.

Hello Silverleaf,  I wouldn't have bred from my inherited untested bitch Rudstone Rosie nor dog Taurus Star either if I knew 5 years ago what I know now.  Skye (Rudstone Rosie's Mum) and Rudstone Rosie are still alive without hip or elbow problems as is Taurus Star who I did 'rehome' intentionally to one of my kennel assistants who adored him. I have his puppy girl Grace and she has hip score of 3/3 and elbow score of 0  Over this last 3 years I have tested to all kennel club recommendations given at that time,  Updates  are impossible to put into practice immediately and I am sorry Summer had such a terrible time with hips.  It doesn't matter when this thread is closed.  My collaborator on the 'Puppy Farm'thread already has her book material. I am sure this thread will be closed soon as there is a difference of opinion from me yet again....

Sorry Jeangenie but have you or Brainless ever 'rehomed' a dog and if so have you been able to visit them with their other rehomed, grown up with playmates 3 or 4 days per week?
5 of my guys are house pets - granted all girls (not boys as that would be asking for trouble) but my babies just the same!  I have never said  that my girls will produce 4 litters in their lifetime.  It's only what has been assumed on previous topics yet you claim that you and Brainless will only have one or two litters per year - a number just below being evaluated at every level as a responsible breeder or having to pay for the privilage of you loving numbers of dogs around you? I wish you could come and see my fabulous brood - on an estate with a job for them all. thay are happy. happy beings.

Hopefully Brainless will appear and answer for herself, but I'm pretty certain she has a break of several years in between litters.

>Sorry Jeangenie but have you or Brainless ever 'rehomed' a dog

I can't speak for brainless on this, but personally I've never 'rehomed' a dog; I've sold the puppies in a litter that I wasn't keeping myself (one puppy who never sold lived with us till he died aged nearly 16 years) and the only ones that left at more than 8 weeks old were being kept by me till the new owners came back from their preplanned holiday - by which time their pup was fully vaccinated, house-trained and lead trained, all at 14 weeks of age, just as my own pup was.

> It's only what has been assumed on previous topics yet you claim that you and Brainless will only have one or two litters per year - a number just below being evaluated at every level as a responsible breeder or having to pay for the privilage of you loving numbers of dogs around you?

Seeing that my last litter was 2 years ago; in fact I've never had more than 1 litter every 2 years - my youngest is 4 years old, and I still don't know whether she'll have a litter. Whether or not she does, she's staying with me for life. You're the one adding 2 and 2 to make 5.

Are you Lainie Duffield or her anonymous author friend ??

Hoggie, you do know that 1:2 elbows = 2, not 3 as high have stated???

> I wouldn't have bred from my inherited untested bitch Rudstone Rosie nor dog Taurus Star either if I knew 5 years ago what I know now.

Hoggie/Lainey/Unknown - I'm sure you'll have an answer to this so please do clarify something for me. Taurus Star was hip scored 22/03/2016 (4.5 years ago) with a result of 36/36 which I'm sure we can all agree is not good. All litters sired by him were conceived after this testing date according to Kennel Club records (the first being Rudstone Rosie). So, in fear of assuming, you did knowingly breed from a dog with bad hip scores (the only test undertaken) and a completely untested dog at a time when you obviously did know about health testing.

I didn't want to get back involved in this again as I assumed the discussion was now over however, as you have brought it up again I am now even more confused.

>> BRAINLESS:  When you talk about 'all of your dogs' you obviously have more than one.  Does that mean you intend more than 3 litters this year and have the perfect facilities to follow animal welfare guidelines as I do?

Just picked up on this as have not been visiting the site much in last year since moving house.

I have owned up to 6 bitches at one time as I have a long lived breed, normally keep my dogs for life. My girls have had between one and three litters each in their lifetimes. I have a numerically small breed and litters are bred to keep bloodlines going, those litters not kept from may go/have gone on to be bred by others and incorporated down the line.

Over the years I have averaged a litter a year or less.  Only bred more than one litter in a calender year on two occasions, and have had some years with none. You can see my breeding family tree here: http://barbelka.awardspace.co.uk/wpimages/wp1ee12516_0a_06.jpg My first litter was bred in 1995 and the last 2019.  As I lost my youngest buitch recwently, I now will hope to buy in a pup of my lines, so won't be breeding again for a few years.

This allows me to give my full attention to the owners of a given litter for their first year and of coure am her for their owners for their lifetime.  I ahve had dogs back for re-homing on occasion, anything from 7 months to 9 years, but through luck, but mainly due to careful vetting of owners have not had more back than I can manage.

I have only recently (last 5 years) homed one of my own dogs, to older owners who has lost an old dog, both cases due to squabbles between two particular girls, one was upset by the atmosphere between her fellows, the other was one of the cobatants, and her rival was aging..

No and I  haven't deliberately bred from a bitch without tests either (ie the bitch you mention and everyone else on this blog is harping on about being inheritated without previous knowledge and that was years ago before I started to look at the responsibility of Dog Breeding). So who deletes the posts? Champdogs Admin. You or someone else?

I am a little lost as to what the issues are here, simply answered the questions.

(1) 'Rehome' is a very unclear area on these posts.  You may find a home for a bitch no longer part of your plan or not. No diffrence!  I keep them as close to me as I can meaning I see them 3/4 days per week keeping the bond and still pay for any health care. feeding etc.  (2) Brainless doesn't rehome when she has as many litters as she can). The most litters I have had from any of my breeding girls is 3 between the ages of 2 & 8 years old so where's the difference?  You can't class as rehomed if you still continue with their welfare.  I have 5 pets including some girls who have had litters and some not.

I just defined your responses

You are correct, my aim, when I keep a puppy is to keep for life, and I managed to do so for 25 years (6 generations).

The two I did re-home was for their and the pack welfare, and also because of their owners needs.

When you have a breed community or past owners grieving, and you can help them it plays a part. 

Had these former owners not been looking for a mature bitch I would have coped, using segregation, not so practical in a normal home, would have entailed crating one or other etc.

Of course if anything happens to the owners they will come back to me (by thern the issue will be no more due to attrition). one lived close by and we saw her regularly until we moved.  Now make do with pics and videos.

I am hoggie as my champdog recognition and Lainey which I chose to share as my personal name.  As for unknown - her personal name is Jill.  She will not be back on this site.  You've all had your say and the material she needed to complete the final chapters of her book were provided.  Taurus Star was inherited by me with no paperwork just the need to be looked after & loved.  Rudstone Rosie came with him in the same scenario.  Check the records and you will see that this test was performed before he was handed over to me and before I came into responsible dog breeding 3 years ago... as you stated 4.5 or 5 years ago was the timing.  You are right. the discussion re calling me a 'Puppy Farmer' is over - blog pulled, however you have all fixated on that in this blog - you are confused because you didn't read all posts on the previous blog and continue to harbour resentment at not being agreed with on that or this blog where many of your trolling accomplancies have admitted or highlighted more than I'm sure they meant to.

As for unknown - her personal name is Jill.  She will not be back on this site.  You've all had your say and the material she needed to complete the final chapters of her book were provided.

Think you need to refer to the terms of this forum (not blog):

You will not copy and retransmit any information out of these forums without first getting the permission of the Champdogs administrators and the original author of the message.

Out of all the Puppies I have produced with my Guys, I have never had one Puppy returned. I have had loads of communications for advice and I know who every owner is and where my Puppies are through the microchipping criteria and have feedback/updates on a regular basis with pictures & messsages in yearly albums for future new owners to view. I've been slated on here for 'rehoming' (and I use the term lightly) by you.  I live on a 90 acre farm with 2 kennel block so I wouldn't have an issue with return either - crating, are you mad!