Unfortunately Bonnie my 3 year old [medium size] bitch went into early labour by 5 days on Sunday with her second litter and had to have an emergency c section at cost of £3000. This is because the first puppy was stuck with one leg caught behind in a breech position. She was carrying 11 puppies and the vets lost 7 although they were breathing and with heart beats on delivery. I know c sections are risky but I can't help thinking these 7 puppies should not have died. Has anyone experienced anything similar. Of the 4 surviving puppies, one is very small and we are hand feeding him.  Bonnie is at least okay.

We had a litter where our normal vet at the Practice we were using, was on holiday when our bitch needed a C.Section and was admitted.  What I didn't know was the Sen.Partner didn't like to do 'Sections so got the first big puppy out 'naturally' and then LEFT HER overnight.  The next puppy was lost and by the time the locum came in the next morning (she was available overnight had she been called for) my bitch was all but shut down.  She, locum, operated but of the original 9 puppies, only 5 survived.  I don't know whether they were breathing or not.  Then another died back home because they'd started bottling the puppies before I got there - he died despite my every effort to keep him going, with milk coming down his nose.   So that left 4 of the 9, two of each.   We sued (settled out of Court) but how do you quantify the loss of the 5 puppies who could have been anything, plus mum who we daren't put in whelp again - confirmed by the new vet when she spayed her, finding one side of the uterus paper thin.   What we were awarded was a fraction of what I felt we should have been receiving, bearing in mind mum was a Canadian-bred UK Champion (the only Canadian-bred bitch in the breed to gain a UK title, to date) and dad was a visiting American Ch., by then returned to the States.  I sold two, male and female to a fellow breeder (that's another sad story) and kept the other two, male and female - she won 2 RBCCs and her sister 1 BCC before going abroad.  The boys did well but were out at the time the Breed CC Record holder was winning.

To my dying day I'll regret not staying RIGHT THERE with my bitch when she should have been having the 'Section.  I trusted vets - no longer.

It's up to you re what you do, or don't do, re this horrible situation.   I'm afraid I was just relieved that my bitch was still alive after that terrible experience.

I think you will need more information from the vets about what happened.  Request the notes for your bitch.  What did the puppies die of?  Were they already still born at delivery?  Were they born premature and their lungs underdeveloped?  Was the c-section too late, so the placentas had already deteriorated and they essentially suffocated inside?  If it was too late, is this because you presented too late - or was the waiting on their advice.  And so on....

It's impossible to say, from the info you've got and given here, what happened and how much of it was the fault of the vet.

When you get the notes, you could then consult with an independent/different vet who is experienced in repro and show them the notes from your bitch and ask for their opinion.

I agree with MamaBas - you should always insist on staying with the bitch during a section and should have this discussion with the vet beforehand.

How awful for you...  If this were me, I would make an appointment with the vet who carried out the C section and listen first hand to what they say happened and why they thought your pups had died and then question to understand further - you need to hear from the vet.   After listening I would ask for a copy of the notes and not leave without them.  Take them home absorb what has been said and what they say, sleep on it for a few days and then either accept that I had been very unlucky and my dog was in the best hands or act accordingly.  If you believe you have sound reasoning for seeking compensation, in the first instance I would be looking for minimum compensation which is the price I would have got for selling the pups plus expenses minus any costs.  I would talk to the voluntary, independent and free mediation service Veterinary Client Mediation Service (VCMS) about making a claim and take it from there and hope for an out of court settlement.  Seeking additional input from an experienced vet is a really good idea.  This must feel really raw at the moment and you have my greatest sympathies.

Just to add to my experience, we were never billed for the C.Section.    We were advised by our normal vet there, when he came back from his holiday, to sue and we were lucky to have the one person who was a breeder-vet (not my breed) and a well known face within the Kennel Club standing up for us.   Sadly now no longer alive.   He had me making a note of EVERYTHING that happened, chapter and verse.   He made enquiries as to our standing (from other senior breeders in my breed I might add) before agreeing to help.   Even so, we were 'advised' to settle out of Court or risk the verdict not going in our direction, and ending up paying the Court fees too!!

I'd agree that you absolutely need to find out what happened to those lost puppies.

Going into labour early by 5 days should never be a problem, as pups lungs are fully developed by then (I have a breed that regularly whelps a week early with no problems.)

I have no experience to enable me to give advice, but wanted to extend my sincere condolences, I know how gutted I would feel.  I am so glad that you still have your girl.

Thank you for your kind words. I am hoping to speak with my usual vet tomorrow who is back from a holiday. I have the surgical notes from the out of hours vets. I am so grateful Bonnie is ok but I cannot forget that 7 little puppies were deprived of a life for her sake as much as mine. Thank you so much x

So very sorry to hear what happened to you and your girl. I have just read this as been busy here trying to keep the tiny one with us although he has just now started to be able to latch on to mum with help. You place your trust in the vet and to be so badly let down is just awful. I am in discussion with the out of hours vets but at the stage where I am about to formally complain and take things further. Thank you for telling me what happened to you.

Thank you for your good advice. I have the surgical notes and details of who was present. The puppies had HR heart rate and respiratory rate on delivery although not overly responsive. My vet had noted that the anaesthesia was on the high side of  norm. There were 5 staff present although that means if one was tending to my Bonnie that would mean a ratio of almost 3 puppies to one person to resuscitate as 11 pups. The stuck puppy was alive when they started the csection and I had been at the vets all day and they decided to operate at 4.30 in the afternoon. I was not allowed to stay despite my insistence. I wish I had driven to another vet in hindsight. I have already decided to ask the vet of they will agree to VCMS. I brought the dead puppies home to bury and they looked perfect

Thank you for your kind words. Bonnie is being the best mum x

This is awful Snowbaron.  In an ideal world, there would be one person per puppy to revive them - in reality, it's quite hard to get those numbers available.  That's combined with high doses of the anaesthesia drug could well have been enough. 

I'm shocked they wouldn't allow you to be there as you would at least have been one extra person to help revive puppies. 

I think you have enough to take the case to the RSVS and complain....

When I ahve had a C section pups were brought out to me so I could keep up stimulastion.