Hello

My third post but everything is worrying me and need some advice!

My girl had her pups 5 days ago first night she showed little interest still cleaned and fed them but kept moving to other side of welping box to get away from them!
Day 2-3 she was constantly with them waking them up all the time to feed them etc didn't want to leave them alone but was quite happy with me and my husband picking up the pups to check them limiting this to a few seconds occasionally but she never minded at all!

Days 4-5  she just wants to be out she doesn't want to go back into the welp box shes has always been a big baby and normally spends most of her time with me on the sofa follows me round everywhere I go but It seems to be worse now the baby's will cry and she will look and then snuggle back into my lap and try to sleep so I will place her down on the floor for her to go over she is still feeding them and toileting them but apart from that has no interest in them if they cry she feeds them when she wants to and they will feed alot during the night when she settles down to go to sleep is this normal that they are just 5 days but she doesn't mind leaving them?

My girl was a hands off mother, first couple of days I had to tell her to go feed her pup or bring him out on the sofa for his feed. Unless she was feeding or cleaning him she was out of the box and sleep with me on the sofa. But the pup was gaining weight very well and only cried when hungry.

Some bitches that are very human-orientated will willingly abandon their babies to be with their owner. So you need to spend the next two weeks minimum - sleeping there as well; toilet breaks only away from it - beside the whelping box, making sure that she stays with them. You need to be firm with her!

Ty for your response all pups are gaining so I'll keep my eye on them

I have been sleeping on the sofa welp box right next to me head but she still wants to be on sofa with me I have been putting her down to go in there and keep my hand on her and she settles to let them feed but as soon as I move she jumps up and follows regardless if they are all mid feed Ty for your response

You could try giving her some calcium, since a less than optimal amount of calcium can affect mother behaviour to different degrees. 

Otherwise you are really going to need to sit in there with her or stroke her whilst in there.  Not all bitches are good mothers and for the sake of the pups you need to help them have the best mother they can have.  Research shows that the pups' ability to manage stress as adult dogs will be influenced by how much attention their mother gave to them, in their first few weeks of life...

What's the best thing to give for calcium?

Thank you

I'd hold off with the calcium at least for now.  It's a fact that sometimes a spoilt family pet finds it difficult, if not downright impossible to switch off being that, to being a mum.   Not every bitch of course, but it does happen.   Provided you are there to get her in with her litter to feed them and she is allowing this without being aggressive with them, and cleans them, this is probably as good as it gets with her.  And she should be spayed after she's through nursing them.    One of mine was a bit like that - and annoyingly once fed and settled down, and she was let out of the box, she'd then stand outside and whine at them, waking them all up again.   And she'd 'pee' them, but would have NOTHING to do with their poos.  That was well beneath her dignity!   As a result, despite my efforts and 'gravity' those puppies spend a lot of the time being uncomfortable.  That was her one and ONLY litter.

Mum has only been with the op for a very short while .would this make any different to how she behaves ? Unsettled generally with all thehe big changes ?

There's no problem with giving calcium - it can't hurt once pups are born and it can most definitely help. 

You are probably best going to a chemist or health food store to buy calcium tablets - try to get them without anything else added (like vitamin D).  You can also use Tums.

You can supplement with 90mg of elemental calcium for each pound of bodyweight per day (split over 4x a day).  Elemental calcium is different, depending on what type of calcium you use.  For example, calcium carbonate (Tums) provides 40mg of calcium for every 100mg of calcium carbonate and that should be given with food.  Calcium citrate, better because it doesn’t require food for processing, only provides 21mg of calcium for every 100mg of calcium citrate.  So a 20lb bitch could be given 1800mg of calcium in 4500mg calcium carbonate, or 4.5 tablets of Tums.  Or you could give her half a heaped teaspoon of calcium citrate powder.  I don't know what your dog weighs so you will need to calculate...

As for spaying - breeding a dog and spaying a dog are two completely different things.  Just because you don't want to breed her again or don't want another accident, doesn't mean you should spay her.  It just means you need to take better care when she is in season, so this can't happen.  Hormones serve purposes and functions which we are only just starting to learn about - and dogs are better off with them at least until (for bitches) the risk of pyometra increases in old age.

OP might like to read the link below - it is my opinion, as always, that provided the bitch is being fed a good quality diet, there should be no need to be supplementing with calcium (or anything else really), UNLESS needed.

https://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Calcium.aspx?pageid=321

We spayed all our bitches, once retired, or earlier if not intended to be bred from, because not only is there enough information to persuade me that the more seasons a bitch has, the more the possibility (and of course, it is only a possibility) of a female related cancer developing.  We had one with mammary cancer which wasn't something I'd wish on my worst enemy.  It also prevented the need for twice yearly confinement forf 3 weeks, and causing upset to the rest of the pack.   I saw no reason to leave a bitch to keep cycling for the remainder of their lives.

And the 'risk' of giving calcium in that article is... what exactly??  And what great resource is that website!?

Compare this to the very real risk of eclampsia:  https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/reproductive/c_dg_eclampsia  

Eclampsia is at one end of the spectrum and is an extreme form of what can happen if a dog has insufficient calcium during lactation.  But there is a whole range of 'less' severe behavioural and physical issues that can occur - from poor mothering, dams which growl at pups, dams which show a disinterest in puppies, dams which pace around and seem unsettled for no apparent reason, dams which dig in their boxes excessively, disturbing their new puppies and so on.  At the first sign of any of these behavioural issues at all, calcium supplementation should be started.  This is recommended by Avidog.com - an organisation which advises breeders on the latest research available so they can implement it in raising litters and puppies.  It is recommended by Cheryl Lopate in her excellent book about neonatal puppies and whelping.

Or maybe we should look at the AKC:  https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeding/the-care-and-feeding-of-the-breeding-bitch-part-three/   "Heavy lactation places such a dramatic drain on the bitch's reserves of this mineral that sometimes her body's calcium metabolism is unable to compensate for the loss. This unique syndrome is called eclampsia (or puerperal tetany). As the blood-calcium level drops, the bitch becomes restless and nervous... "

As for spaying, of course there are many functions of estrogen and progesterone beyond reproduction:

Shall we start with the increase in cancer risk amongst spayed and neutered dogs?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29067194/?fbclid=IwAR0eBrDTbC4ubO_KM-UWjL4JB47RxbLugGLHpJgIulxOPrOpkn9NwSZe7go
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/06/13/neutering-spaying-cancer-risk.aspx?fbclid=IwAR15PCgVfo7SU7JJoLwQ5dfCaT_26jEsSTD-MqLh3sNQhRkEDK_eC35mihY
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0102241&fbclid=IwAR2o-BrJFnyY3czJE8qMLdaEgMXl2p0uwi96ttl15GBwu2zCoNnSZuGIMrE
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full?fbclid=IwAR2dgIwJxoT4Y2JYLh22tyMaWd_FrMTJBuy1ZI4L-AmxxSgwLQ1OLYKtvps

Including long-term effects on the immune system:  https://www.parsemus.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Zwida-and-Kutzler-2016.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3kfWFkYIBj0-4uQNl16flamMDYO6u4X8aC06PC1_ZaBbUU_3L5cP_ajjw

Perhaps the role of the uterus in the development of memory and spatial awareness?  https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/rat-study-points-to-role-of-uterus-in-memory-65188?fbclid=IwAR1zC-pkrFuM6RFRfkFiuNT7fIHMvRcaSWIDmxwDY__VIFRDRsS-a5F3Ux0

Or the fact that dogs live longer (on average) the longer they retain their ovaries:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19732047?fbclid=IwAR36YldesnxXf2UHPCf-ooO2QhcHzk0dz3EI1dQsPxEJqbBW63NZEFI7jNM

The risk of urinary incontinence developing after spaying, requiring a lifetime of medication:  http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/11787155?fbclid=IwAR0Ug-891T_tPdUuNPHN9kWKWx3yYDrZlbp4BGcJP1VxQQDFREAqjwlp5Es

The increase in risk factors for obesity, joint disease and orthopaedic issues after neutering:  http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/research-update-earlier-age-spayneuter-risk-factor-obesity-and-orthopedic-injuries?fbclid=IwAR0Zv7Hv22k3GMk15nxewl4vbiBHGhKlqCeLDPlpt0K2Mjfi4MauNOSRTO0

The increase in incidence of IVDH for dachshunds when neutered:  https://cgejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40575-018-0067-7?fbclid=IwAR2019tpb2ttH4udxs7O3gTsmSyIV1Ej3khtmv39c5-mufu39HisKv-7_hs

Double the risk of hip dysplasia in neutered dogs:  https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/new-study-neuter-risk-hip-dysplasia-dogs/?fbclid=IwAR2_0jwudnh2IM43GK5EE-rYpW5uDZk3YX-Kumdy1KLhr8iDvmcnOSx-BE4
And:  http://www.naiaonline.org/uploads/WhitePapers/EarlySNAndBehaviorDuffySerpell.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3puJZUE65N69_X2uXrGUOK5V9wRb-8KGfN-h-3FWWgPR3nTRidMbMllYs

Reduced communication skills in spayed female dogs:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201902/spayed-female-dogs-may-have-reduced-communication-skills?fbclid=IwAR1fG2T9pRtYbyC-5e8sKVTt83oCduGcafXrR3YEa91WrxOp8pZrdZ09xzk#_=_

An increase in the incidence of aggression towards other dogs and people amongst spayed or neutered dogs:  https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full?&utm_source=Email_to_authors_&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=T1_11.5e1_author&utm_campaign=Email_publication&field&journalName=Frontiers_in_Veterinary_Science&id=284353&fbclid=IwAR3QzPC8Qpsw2AT-DIgR1e17vdVyhRCHdfCGT6qR2r0ooSDO8On5Q9pwbBM

An increase in separation anxiety amongst spayed or neutered dogs:  https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Collections/Documents/javma_219_4_460.pdf?fbclid=IwAR30dwhXbenq_btSEubJdR-aGwNo6NGkfNcOjBwwPT0VhrhyPujSsafANYU

An increase in the risk for senility or dementia in elderly dogs if they are neutered:  https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Collections/Documents/javma_219_1_51.pdf?fbclid=IwAR22YraWZ4Q3K2PrncWrUi-rRMDwmvXd8HCMWCt06Ma4b1Uq7Se81AjXr5I

I could go on, but I think I'll leave it there

^^      We can all copy/paste information to support our personal beliefs (assuming we have nothing better to do!!).    I happened to pick that link (which seemed to present a reasonably sensible source of information),  as just one of many that support MY view on over-supplementing when it's probably not necessary.  There are others of course.

We have NEVER had eclampsia in our bitches who were all fed a good quality diet regardless of being bred from or not.

And then there's SPAYING.   As said, we had one with mammary cancer when spayed at around 7 years.  And again, I'd never wish that on my worst enemy.  I preferred not to keep my bitches cycling/being confined, into old age.  Just because you have other ideas about this, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you are right.   We just differ.

>You are probably best going to a chemist or health food store to buy calcium tablets - try to get them without anything else added (like vitamin D)

Incorrect advice. Calcium can't be absorbed without vitamin D. The best product to use is Collocal D which is actually designed for use after whelping.

Sorry JG, I disagree.

Vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin so excess is stored in the body long term - rather than being washed out through urine. Vit D toxicity can be a concern when dogs are fed above-maximum doses longterm (ie throughout lactation).  For example, there is a dog-food recall in the US right now for foods that have up to 70 times the recommended dosing.

Dog foods already have vitamin D added, so supplementing with additional vitamin D can cause considerable problems, especially when we can't easily calculate the max dosing because the AAFCO gives it to us in mg/kg of dry weight material.

David Kronfeld says that toxicity occurs when diets have 10 times the max amount long-term (over 60 days) and 100 times the max in the short term (less than 60 days). 

Which is all to say - if you are going to supplement with a product which contains vitamin D, you need to ensure you are only using it for a brief amount of time so that levels don't build up to cause vitamin D toxicity - AND you need to know exactly how much you are already giving in your dog's food. 

Far simpler to rely on what is already in the food itself, when it comes to vitamin D.