Hi
I was wondering if anyone else has had problems with Advocate causing birth defects in puppies?
I treated all the bitches and the stud dog with advocate as we have a high incidence of lung worm in the area. A week later I saw a post on a veterinary  site in America showing a litter of puppies that all had hydrocephalus and the reason was put down to Advocate being used. Didn't think too much about it, just thought the owners must have treated the bitch in pregnancy.
A week later one of my bitches came in season and was mated by my stud dog .
Pups arrived, one with hydrocephalus one with a bad cleft pallet, the rest were fine. It made me remember the post I saw. Just thought I won't do that again!
Now a second litter have all but one been born with hare lips! That bitch would have had the Advocate  treatment 3 months before mating!
They are not bad but not right. Just wondered if anyone else has had any unexplained birth defects after treatment. ( Both bitches have had litters before with no problems , the grandmother has had no problems ,and the stud dog has sired several litters with no problems, just incase any one thinks it may be hereditary! )

I haven't heard about Advocate causing birth defects. 

However, you can reduce the risk of birth defects in a litter by giving folic acid throughout pregnancy.  Start when the bitch comes in season.  800mcgs once a day is fine for medium to large bitches.

Diet not the problem, but thanks .

I would certainly  think that avoiding using any strong product with a long lasting effect before a planned pregnancy would be wise.

Bit more than worrying that you had issues even mating three months after use, certainly worth reporting to your vet to get them to fill out an adverse effects form.

You can fill out the form without vet doing it if u want .I know some have found Thier vets unsupportive at reporting adverse effects. I think it's on the defra website

Did you test the dogs for lungworm before using Advocate ? My vet won't prescribe anything for lungworm or heart worm without testing first. Imidacloprid(one constituent of Advocate) hasn't been tested in breeding, in whelp or lactating bitches & because of this my vet will not prescribe it's use for dogs/bitches that maybe bred from.

I always give Advocate to my dogs - not monthly but once in 2-3 months approximately. Advocate is preventative as well as treatment, and we travel and go for walks most everywhere in the country rain or shine, mud, ponds, rivers, wild and domestic animals poop you name it... to me it gives some peace of mind. It's been already 3 litters when I gave it to my girls in advance of mating, a month before they were due to come in season (say one is due to have season some time in June, I would give Advocate about mid-May). Not had a problem yet. However my breed is not known to be sensitive to the ingredients - some breeds are.

My vet was helpful , but suggested that I phone Bayer directly first .
They have taken details , but didn't seem that interested!
I just hope anyone else that has had problems will also report it or other breeders and vets won't realise the danger.
Even if it's just one deformed pup in a litter, it should be flagged up.
I will also look on the DEFRA website Thanks

I didn't test for it, as having lost a 14 week old pup, on its first walk after the vaccination course , to lung worm, having shown no sign at home playing with the others, I am not prepared to take any chances.
The farming papers in the S.E. are pushing the lung worm vaccination for cattle as it is getting such a big problem here.
I took the position that" prevention was better than cure" , but now I'm not so sure.
I'm wondering if your vet knows or has heard something not so widely acknowledged. Bayer just said they hadn't had any reports of adverse reactions "in this country"!

The first litter was just after a month from treatment to mating . They recommend monthly treatments, implying the drug has left the system in a month!
The second litter was at least 3 months from treatment to mating!

Good luck with your litter. I have used Advocate once or twice a year but not sure what to do now!

My vet tries never to prescribe drugs without testing first where possible. Over the years I know he has always been proactive re worming, flea treatments, cannot see the point in prescribing just in case the animal has a condition, infection etc

He has never precribed Bravecto for example because of the known contraindications. The same with Advocate, it hasn't been tested on breeding, in whelp etc dogs therefore he won't prescribe for any dog involved in breeding, unless it is the ONLY option

BTW Bayer always reply that they have had no previous reports

Yes, I got that impression from Bayer.
Problem with having lost a 14 week old pup to lung worm ,it makes you worry about every slug and snail.
I always make sure there is nothing left out overnight that the dogs play with and garden is regularly treated with slug prevention.
You can only do so much and sometimes preventative drugs are useful.

Why don't you just use Panacur??  Fenbedazole is effective against lungworm and also known to be very safe during pregnancy as it's what most people use to worm the bitch with anyway...

garden is regularly treated with slug prevention

what do you use for slug prevention in the garden?

> Why don't you just use Panacur??  Fenbedazole is effective against lungworm and also known to be very safe during pregnancy as it's what most people use to worm the bitch with anyway...

Panacur is not prevention though, it is a treatment - if I understand it correctly. What attracts me to Advocate is that once you apply it it remains active for at least a month hence prevention.

Nothing is a prevention, monkeyj - for lungworm, everything is a treatment.  Advocat is a treatment.

It all works in the same way - by killing anything which has recently infected the dog.  There is no prevention for lungworm - other than periodically killing off any infection.

No, Advocate does not stay effective for a month and work preventatively.  It kills off any larvae which the dog has been infected with during the preceding month, when given.  As does Panacur.  The only difference is that Advocate is one dose and Panacur requires I think about a 5 day course of it, at the reduced dose.  This is pretty identical to what you'd be giving for worming during pregnancy anyway (well - you'd be giving it longer during pregnancy) - so you are kind of killing two birds (or parasites) with one stone if you use Panacur.

hand collection and a salt bath salt around shrubs and in cracks in paving etc

I will probably stick to panacur from now on!
I really just wanted to warn other breeders of potential risk.

> No, Advocate does not stay effective for a month and work preventatively.  It kills off any larvae which the dog has been infected with during the preceding month, when given.  As does Panacur.

Just had a look at the datasheet, you're right about the lungworm it says only for treatment. But it says "prevention of heartworm disease (L3 and L4 larvae of Dirofilaria immitis) and angiostrongylosis (L4 larvae and immature adults of Angiostrongylus vasorum)". I guess that's what I remembered back in the day and it stuck with me.

>prevention of heartworm disease (L3 and L4 larvae of Dirofilaria immitis)

But it's the word 'disease' there which is crucial.  It does prevent heartworm *disease* - by killing off the larvae that have infected the dog in the last month.  That prevents disease.  Disease is a stage beyond infection, it's the stage where there are clinical symptoms.  So they are right with that.  I don't know why they have worded it the same for both lungworm and heartworm but they are very similar worms that work in similar ways, just affecting different organs and fenbendazole kills off immature larvae of each.

It appears that they do refer to preventing infection also, but also they explicitly say about the active ingredient that once applied it stays active for one month:

>Moxidectin ... is a parasiticide which is active against many internal and external parasites. ... Moxidectin interacts with GABA and glutamate-gated chloride channels. This leads to opening of the chloride channels on the postsynaptic junction, the inflow of chloride ions and induction of an irreversible resting state. The result is flaccid paralysis of affected parasites, followed by their death and/or expulsion.

>Moxidectin is absorbed through the skin, reaching maximum plasma concentrations approximately 1 to 2 days after treatment in cats and approximately 4 to 9 days after treatment in dogs. Following absorption from the skin, moxidectin is distributed systemically and is slowly eliminated from the plasma as manifested by detectable moxidectin concentrations in plasma throughout the treatment interval of one month.

Having looked up moxidectin further it appears its prolonged activity/sustained release has been tested and confirmed among the variety of animals, and is a feature the drug is most praised for.

Lanusse, CE; Lifschitz, AL; Imperiale, FA (2013). "Chapter 42: Macrocyclic lactones: Endectocide compounds". In Riviere, JE; Papich, MG. Veterinary Pharmacology and Therapeutics (9th ed.).
https://veteriankey.com/macrocyclic-lactones-endectocide-compounds/

Hmm, maybe I'm wrong on that one then!  However, if you are giving Panacur during pregnancy, you are giving it from day 40 (IIRC) to 2 days after whelping - daily - so that is a continual application in the same way and going to have the same effect. 

It doesn't really make any difference whether you put something on a dog which continually kills everything off - versus treat once a month to eliminate any larvae whilst they are small and immature and haven't done any harm.  The result in terms of the dog's health is the same...

Hello I am new to this website so excuse my mistakes.
I was just wondering if anyone has used Aludex wash in lactating bitch with 6 week old pups.
My vet has recommended this treatment, he is not sure if my dog has scabies but she has bald patches that indicate scabies but no itching.

Miningpete, looking at the data sheet on the NOAH site for it it says

"Do not use on Chihuahuas. Do not use on dogs suffering from heat stress. Do not use on pregnant or lactating bitches, nor puppies less than 3 months old. Do not use on cats."
For pregnant and lactation "Contra-indicated in the absence of adequate safety trials data"

It also says treated dogs need to be prevented from licking the area so a risk if puppies do the same.

Can skin scrapes be done so u know what u are dealing with  before using anything .

> she has bald patches that indicate scabies but no itching.

How expereinced is yoru vet re breeding.

bitches at this stage will normally have a post partum moult, and they can loose right down to teh skin, do bare patches may simply be down to this.

I have a double coated breed (not long haired) and it takes around 5= 6 months before they are fit to be seen in the showring and longer before they are back in really good coat.