Recently a puppy from  a litter sired by my sons dog( breeder is a family friend) was diagnosed with elbow and shoulder problems( both sides),in the elbow chomdromalacia and in the shoulder quite vague about naming it but saying similar but that fragments of bone have come away,they mentioned OCD saying this covers a wide variety of descriptions.  they are saying this is 100% hereditary, its mum s first litter, she is a stunning import doing well in the show ring and  has absolutely no problems like this. dad also doing well in the ring and has sired quite a large number of puppies yet this is the only one, the vet says they both need spayed/neutered. Both my son and myself have looked up to see if there is a dna test available but cant seem to find anything and the specialist isnt much help when it comes to that. What we want to know is can this type of thing be carried on both sides but not show actual symptoms in the parents? Puppy is 7 months old. My son wants to do whats right but also doesnt want to go and neuter and then find out that this can also just happen without being hereditary...any help appreciated

Are both parents elbow scored ? If the parents aren't elbow scored I would have them both screened as soon as possible

Not having an exact diagnosis of the problem doesn't help your research into the cause. I do know that it can be congential, but it can occur over the age of 12 months in dogs that showed no previous symptoms, but who have had an injury or impact at the site.

There is no DNA test for ED or OCD to date.

I do know Malcolm Willis did appear in court in a civil case for the plaintiff & is on record stating that HD is purely genetic, however the case was not successful & IMHO correctly so as any condition without a DNA test being available is more that likely multicausal.

If this condition had appeared in more that one litter from either parent then a genetic link could be possible, but this isn't the case here. I personally wouldn't breed the two dogs together again, but to neuter both is a bit drastic.

I have a friend who has fully health tested all her dogs for over 30 years, from a pedigree with excellent hips & 0 scored elbows, has a lovely champion dog sadly he has an elbow score of 3 & obviously he will never be bred from. All of the others in the litter have been scored & they all have 0 scores.

Vets who do not specialise in genetics have usually only the basic knowledge of what conditions are & aren't fully/partially genetic in origin, this is true of specialists in other fields of veterinary medicine too.

No,both are dna tested with every possible test known to the breed and both bva tested yearly..my son has now booked his dog in to be elbow and also hipscored and will see what the results are and take it from there.Thanks for the advice much appreciated

Good news, personally think ALL dogs used in breeding & canine activities should be hip & elbow scored, even if HD/ED aren't a known problem.

It covers the owners of breeding dogs so that they know their dogs do not have a problem & for those involved in canine activities they know that they aren't going to have problems in the future or can take steps to minimise/avoid problems

> the vet says they both need spayed/neutered.

Being cynical, of course the vet says this - kerching.   I'd suggest this particular pairing isn't repeated and if those involved want to take this further, spay the bitch.  It's not necessary to castrate although as this has happened, I'd probably not use the dog again even if this is the first puppy he has sired, with this problem.   I think the only thing anybody can do is score breeding stock, and also any puppies they keep from a litter to include in a breeding programme going forward, and hope for the best.   I'd be having the bitch's hips and elbows scored and if the results are 'reasonable', mate her again but to a completely other male, who obviously has also been scored.

Too bad this happened with a nice import.

Mendels Theory says Carrier to Carrier = 25% Clear, 50% Carrier and 25% Affected.

> Mendels Theory says Carrier to Carrier = 25% Clear, 50% Carrier and 25% Affected.

That only applies to simple autosomal recessive inheritance.

Hips and Elbow Dysplasia are not in this category, and are multifactoriual, but it does seem that Elbow status is more strongly inherited than Hip status.

Too true B, too many people use a simple genetic theory & apply it to multicausal conditions like HD/ED, usually tjose with little knowledge of how complex most researchers believe these conditions to be, part genetic, part diet & part environs just for starters.

ED is not totally hereditary. I know in the states in some breeds shoulders are xrayed and also graded. I had a dog in the past which had shoulder ocd. Neither parent had this condition either and to my knowledge the rest of the litter were fine. He wasn't over exercised and was careful he didn't do anything silly. Given good food too.
I put it down to one of those things, could have been a partial hereditary issue but way back

> Mendels Theory says Carrier to Carrier = 25% Clear, 50% Carrier and 25% Affected.<br />That only applies to simple autosomal recessive inheritance.<br /><br />Hips and Elbow Dysplasia are not in this category, and are multifactoriual, but it does seem that Elbow status is more strongly inherited than Hip status.

Oh Gawd - get back in your box Jan.   Crawls off. 

> personally think ALL dogs used in breeding & canine activities should be hip & elbow scored, even if HD/ED aren't a known problem.

That is my view also, and as investigations into possible ED are expensive, even when negative.  I had owners allow a pup to reach 32kg at 6 months (would expect about 17kg at that age), and vet was adamant must be ED when he went lame!

I have for the past 7 years elbow scored all mine, and encouraged others to do so, though it is no considered an issue in our breed so not generally done, but a few are doing so.

> personally think ALL dogs used in breeding & canine activities should be hip & elbow scored, even if HD/ED aren't a known problem.

I'm genuinely not sure about this...  In my breed HD/ED aren't a known problem. I haven't heard of a single instance that a dog/puppy was affected, we have low numbers where everyone knows everyone not easy keeping a secret...

At the same time I love to do everything possible to ensure a quality litter, money is not an obstacle in this regard, instead it is health and wellbeing of my dogs. And here the idea of taking the dog to the vet to be anaesthetised, flattened and x-rayed for - well, very little reason - just puts me off! Having her/him go through this, hospital stress, etc...

And here the idea of taking the dog to the vet to be anaesthetised, flattened and x-rayed for - well, very little reason - just puts me off! Having her/him go through this, hospital stress, etc...

Just because there is apparently no problems in a breed doesn't mean there isn't, how do breeders know they dont have HD/ED in their breed without testing ??

Unless all the dogs in a breed have 0 hip scores, there is HD in the breed. The same with ED.

If you don't test & you breed 1 dog with HD/ED you leave yourself open to litigation & you really have no defence. The best you can do is do all available tests & follow BVA guidelines.

Unless you are breeding racing greyhounds, it is highly unlikely that there is no HD in your chosen breed. They are the only breed not to have a case of HD diagnosed in a study of all breeds not to have a recorded HD case.

However each to their own & if you truly believe there is no HD/ED in your breed, don't bother testing.

If memory serves me right, it was the belief amongst Beagle breeders that there was no HD problem in the breed, sadly scoring proved them quite badly wrong.

> how do breeders know they dont have HD/ED in their breed

Because there are no known instances of dogs in our breed to be diagnosed with HD/ED.
 

> If you don't test & you breed 1 dog with HD/ED you leave yourself open to litigation & you really have no defence.

Don't think so. There is no legal requirement to test for these conditions, instead the court may treat a puppy buyer as having a reasonable expectation that the breeder will test (or something along these lines, I'm not a lawyer...) This is highly unlikely in the breed with no known instances of HD/ED, let alone the fact that these conditions can be acquired as well as inherited.

Because there are no known instances of dogs in our breed to be diagnosed with HD/ED.



So not a single dog in your breed has ever been diagnosed with HD/ED really, you have such knowledge of every dog in your breed, that you can be 100% certain of this ? Not anywhere in the world ??

And here was me thinking that only racing greyhounds had such indepth research done, I have no idea what breed you have, but it must be wonderful to have such a healthy breed. I learn sonething new every day.

Perhaps the breeders of your breed will share the secret of producing 100% HD/ED free dogs ?

Clearly you are feeling very emotional on the topic. Nope, we are not 100% certain.

Clearly you are feeling very emotional on the topic. Nope, we are not 100% certain.



So you don't knowthat your breed is 100% HD/ED free, does this mean thst there maybe dogs with undiagnosed HD/ED, but because you don't score you can state there is no problem in my breed ?

That's the reasoning of a well known Alsatian( his name for the breed)breeder who claimed to have bred out HD in his lines & yet had never had a single dog x rayed.

Just because a dog doesn't limp & is sound doesn't mean it has good hips & elbows. My friend's dog with ED score of 3 , has never been lame & is perfectly sound, if they didn't routinely score hips & elbows no one would ever have known, by your reasoning( not scoring because we don't think we have a problem)he would have been considered ED normal.

Has any dog in your breed ever had it's hips x rayed  ?

You'll have to find someone else to argue with. Good luck!

Go on living in your bubble of believing in what you can't see doesn't exist. Just hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

BTW you can be liable if one of your pups has HD/ED & you haven't tested for it, because there is legal precedent here in the UK. You have to show that you gave taken all available steps to reduce the likelyhood in multicausal conditions

But every breed can have HD, even little ones, if you look at US stats, https://www.ofa.org/diseases/breed-statistics#detail the worst breed for Hips is the Bulldog, yet hardly any are scored here and the ones that are have nothing to be complacent about. You may find your breed in the list which goes from worst to best.

Here are the stats for Elbows, they use the same international grading system as we do: https://www.ofa.org/diseases/breed-statistics#detail

We have a numerically small breed which all responsible breeders score, even though clinically we have not got a problem, even the highest ever score in UK at 61 was only a bit stiff in old age.

Since al (ethically bred) breeding stock has been scored our scores have improved over the decades, and we have been able to ensure the occasional high one has not been bred to. 

With a small gene pool, an unseen/unknown problem can soon proliferate.

We now have DNA tests for the two known eye issues in the breed, but we still routinely do the Clinical Eye testing, in case something else crops up.

> If memory serves me right, it was the belief amongst Beagle breeders that there was no HD problem in the breed, sadly scoring proved them quite badly wrong.

USA OFA Data: https://www.ofa.org/diseases/breed-statistics#detail
                                                 * * * * All Data * * * *                                            * * * Born 2011-2015 * * *
Breed:     Rank:     Evaluations:  % Excellent:   % Dysplastic:     Evaluations:  % Excellent:    % Dysplastic
BEAGLE  54              1,131                  2.7                17.9                  168                 4.2                  17.9

All 129 Elbow scored were 0.

BVA Data: https://www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/Canine_Health_Schemes/Hip_Scheme/CHS%20Hip%20breed%20stats%202018(2).pdf
                                                                                15 years                       5 years
Breed:   Tested 15 years:   Tested 2018:   Mean   Min   Max   Median   Mean   Median
Beagle               59                      4               20.1     8      71       16.0       18.9      17.0

6 Beagles are shown as being elbow scored with all 0 scores.

>But every breed can have HD, even little ones, if you look at US stats, https://www.ofa.org/diseases/breed-statistics#detail the worst breed for Hips is the Bulldog, yet hardly any are scored here and the ones that are have nothing to be complacent about. You may find your breed in the list which goes from worst to best.

It shows 100% normal for my breed for hips (couldn't see the elbow in individual breed statistic), but - there are nowhere near 50 evaluations! Therefore I wouldn't base my decision just on that - rather, it is a combination of factors.

If I go back to the beginning, the choice is between doing the test and likely lowering the risk of HD/ED in my dog's offspring, and not doing the test and avoiding anaesthesia/flattening/x-ray/stress for my dog. These are the factors that weigh down on this choice:

1) Because there are no known sufferers with HD/ED in my breed, the risk of these conditions appearing in my dog's offspring is already lower compared to breeds where HD/ED is known/common (here I'm talking not merely the scores but symptoms, this is because the aim of testing is to bring the scores down, and scores are highest where the dogs are actually suffering)

2) At the same time, the likelihood that testing my dog is going to lower this already lower risk is 50% less compared to breeds where HD/ED is known/common - this is because the chances of finding a suitable mate for my dog who has also been tested are practically zero as our breeders don't test for these conditions.

3) My breed has low numbers and it is certainly true that with a small gene pool unseen/unknown problem can soon proliferate. Yet this very fact also shows that perhaps there are no such unseen/unknown problem in my breed, because so far it does not appear to have proliferated - our breed yearly reg numbers don't reach 200 and we have no known HD/ED sufferers, compared to breeds with 35,000 yearly reg numbers that have lots of known sufferers.

4) The low numbers/limited gene pool in my breed also means that it is difficult to find a suitable mate full stop, let alone a suitable mate who has been tested. And should I test my otherwise quality dog and find out that she has some score but not high enough to make her a sufferer, it probably won't make exactly the same sense to throw her out of the gene pool with less than 200 yearly regs, as opposed to throwing her out of the gene pool with 35,000 yearly regs...

Don't get me wrong, if testing for HD/ED were a matter of getting a swab off the dog's cheek and posting it over I'd have no problem doing it, if anything for the sake of scientific curiosity/building a database/etc! But because the current test is much more "involved" in this regard I can't help but weigh this procedure against the limited reason for testing (limited due to above considerations). Last year a friend of mine lost her healthy and happy pet terrier during a routine neutering due to anaesthesia, it was just that one second the dog was there and the next he was not. I'd go half-mad if anything like that should happen to my dog but even more so if I knew I put her through this for what is essentially a little reason....

Of course some people only submit good scores for evaluation do skewing the data held for breeds.

Rather than looking at dogs assessed under the mature dog schemes perhaps dogs should be evaluated using the PennHip method, which can be done from 16 weeks of age.

None of my dogs have been"flattened" for hip scoring under the BVA scheme, they are placed in a sling with the legs turned inwards under sedation not GA so the hips are in their best position. My dogs come out ready to walk out of the surgery with no after effects.

I looked it up briefly and PehhHip also requires anaesthesia or possibly deep sedation? (which carries similar risks) Plus it appears that to get meaningful results it is necessary that many individuals within the breed are evaluated, it says: "PennHip evaluation reports are not pass-fail. Instead, each dog is ranked compared to other dogs of that breed." Sorry, I'm not convinced there is enough reason to put my dog through this...


scores are highest where the dogs are actually suffering


Oh dear you sadly are misinformed. I know of personally of dogs with varying scores who have had considerably pain & other dogs with the same scores who have no pain or symptoms. This is why you cannot tell if a dog has a degree of HD without x raying in order to remove dysplasic dogs from breeding programs.

Like my friend's dog with ED score 3, who is perfectly sound, he could have been included in their breeding program, using your reasoning of high scoring dogs suffering pain, had they not routinely scored their dogs. Externally he appears normal, internally he isn't.

This is the reason I screen my dogs, I, unlike non working dog owners(working as in herding stock, not canine competitive activities), need to know that my dogs are as healthy as possible & just to repeat, you cannot assess hips or elbows without x rays or MRI scans(& obviously X rays are cheaper) I routinely PennHip in order to know at the earliest opportunity.

With multicausal conditions it will NEVER be as simple as taking a swap.

Must be so reassuring to know none of your dogs will never have HD/ED & the theory of all dogs with HD/ED showing symptoms is 100% correct

> Oh dear you sadly are misinformed.

Perhaps. It is still not good enough reason for me to start testing my dogs, taking into account other considerations.

But none of your dogs will ever have HD/ED will they, because you don't x ray & your dogs are sound so nothing for you to be concerned about ever & if one you sell develops either condition it will down to the new owners not feeding/exercising him/her won't it & not you breeding from dogs if unknown hip/ elbow status.

BTW in the court case in which the breeder argued the same as you, the plaintiff won & it cost the breeder £1,000s because they had not taken ALL available steps to ensure that the puppy was from fully health tested parents, regardless of whether or not the condition common in the breed.

And I am amazed that in this litigious age there are not many more such cases. Just a glance through the litter pages on CD, many are advertised without mention of ED screening, despite  it being an issue in the breed. And of those breeders who do score, the results are often ignored and the dogs are bred from regardless. Should any of those puppies, at any stage in their lives, be found to have HD or ED, this could be used against the breeder, in court. Yes, many high scoring dogs never exhibit clinical signs and symptoms and some low scoring dogs do. But that is not the issue. The balance of probabilities rests with screening for HD and ED as reducing the incidence of the conditions. Why take the risk ? It could all come back to 'bite' you if you do.

> if one you sell develops either condition it will down to the new owners not feeding/exercising him/her won't it

Not necessarily. If it becomes known that some of our breed are suffering from HD/ED, the reason for testing will become stronger potentially outweighing other considerations. Just before you say "so are you going to wait until things get worse" - the answer is yes. As things currently are in my breed, the disadvantages of the testing outweigh its advantages in my opinion. And you've seen the statistics, hardly anyone tests small terriers which means perhaps my opinion is shared. Unless of course you choose to believe that we are all highly irresponsible breeders and couldn't care less. In which case it is up to you of course.

About that "court case" - unless it involved exactly the same circumstances (no known HD/ED in the small terrier breed) and you have the name and citation for this case so that a person could look up the transcript of the hearing/details - you may well just stop, it really is not going to scare anyone to run and start testing.

BTW in the court case in which the breeder argued the same as you, the plaintiff won & it cost the breeder £1,000s because they had not taken ALL available steps to ensure that the puppy was from fully health tested parents, regardless of whether or not the condition common in the breed.

Obviously we do not know the details of this case, but from a legal standpoint, Monkeyj would not be fined . The decision she has made is an informed, fact-based decision. If her theory is flawed and one of her pups does present with ED/HD, she would not be seen to have been negligent. This is aside from the fact that in a court of law, it would not be possible to prove beyond doubt that the ED/HD in said pup was caused soley by genetic factors (which have not presented themselves in any previous generation), rather than injury or environmental factors.


Obviously we do not know the details of this case, but from a legal standpoint, Monkeyj would not be fined

You cannot be fined in a civil suit brought under the law pertaining to the sale of goods act.

it means that the goods that sold to the buyers are required to fit for the particular purpose to the extent that they were sold. However, the goods are failed or unable to perform the purpose when they have been sold, they are considered as unmerchantable

So selling a puppy bred from parents are not HD/ED scored that develops HD/ED & because of the state of it's health requires medical attention in order to lead a"normal active" life means the puppy is NOT fit for purpose & breeding from parents of unknown health status viewed as negligent, regardless of whether the condition is thought of as being a problem in the breed.

I doubt very much this case will be on the net being a CIVIL case, but it is recorded in non digital records. Not a landmark case as previous precedent wss used in making the case for the plaintiff.

It was ruled NOT a Caveat Emptor case

Tommee, you talk nonsense.

The requirement of the Sale of Goods Act you refer to doesn't apply to private sales where it is only necessary to satisfy the description.

Looking up case does not mean looking it up "on the net", it means requesting the transcript/details from the court. Giving your extensive knowledge of this case I would expect you to be aware of its name and citation - else how could you possibly be so informed? Unless of course your sources are gossip.

I think there's been enough discussion at this point, it really goes nowhere now apart from ridicule.

Whatever Monkeyj, not going to spend time & money on getting you civil court records, got better things to do with my time, like getting my dogs out to bring the sheep down from the hills ready for lambing.

> My son wants to do whats right but also doesnt want to go and neuter and then find out that this can also just happen without being hereditary...any help appreciated

As has been said Elbow Dysplasia has a very strong hereditary component, but like Hip Dysplasia is a multifactorial developmental issue, which is why there is no simple DNa test, and probably never will be.

So we are left with clinical screening of breeding stock.

Certainly the two parents should not be mated together again, and care should be taken in making similar matings.

I would advise both parents be Elbow scored and any of the litter that are going to be bred from.

If any of these do not score 0 in elbows I think that the breed club should look at recommending that breeding stock is in future scored before breeding.

Is it definitely the elbow that's causing the problem ?? I went through similar with my puppy from tested parents . Turns out it wasn't his elbows but fragments of cartilage in his shoulder . Orthopedic specialist said just one of those things . He was 8 months old when he had an op to remove them & I'm glad to say he is now 100% sound .