So, at the moment I'm trying to breed a bitch (she's had a litter before and had 2 natural matings then, on day 12 and 15).

We are using an unproven/inexperienced 4yo stud.  We are going with the 'keep trying every few days' approach and she's not telling him off and they are being very sweet together.  So far we've tried on day 7 and day 9 and we know we are probably really early.  We will next try day 12.  She has started flagging and tilting her vulva at him today (day 9), but he seems worried about being told off if he tries to mount - he hasn't tried at all yet.  He licks her vulva and they are generally interested in each other - then they get less interested in each other as the session progresses.  So we have tried separating them for breaks.  I am guessing he has, in his life, been told off for sniffing bitch's rears - and he's a sensitive soul. 

Is it possible that, even though he is totally inexperienced, he knows it's the wrong time?  Do people find that even inexperienced stud dogs can know it's not the right time?

I am trying to figure out whether we're not getting matings because we are early (very likely) or whether it's his lack of confidence (possible).  As we keep trying every few days, if it continues, it will slowly seem to be more his lack of confidence - and I'm wondering what we can do, if that continues, to improve things. 

Got to say - I haven't had this problem before because I've used proven stud dogs and hand myself over to the experience of the stud dog owner!  So:  Do people have methods they use if they want to help a stud feel confident enough to mount a bitch?  I've spoken to a couple of people and they've suggested taking the stud outside, playing tug, getting him excited in a general arousal sense - and then going back in to the bitch.  Some people have suggested manual stimulation - although I've no idea how we do that(!)... But basically, if we need some extra help, what do people suggest??  Thanks!!

> Is it possible that, even though he is totally inexperienced, he knows it's the wrong time?  Do people find that even inexperienced stud dogs can know it's not the right time?

Totally, and the fact he is getting to know her and not getting negative vibes will increase his confidence.

Is the bitch flirtatious, often it needs the bitch to really get the dog going, and then instinct will take over.

My recent mating the bitch was definitely the main player, even though both maidens.

Many dogs past the very first flush of libido in their youth do need to be wound up a bit by the bitch.  This is often achieved when the bitch stats mounting the dog, etc.

Personally I don't separate dog and bitch except when I am not wit them, so they are relaxed together.

I have dealt with a couple of males who were untried until about 4 or 5 and in each case a young keen flirtatious bitch got them over their reticence.

It helps to be very unobtrusive, (pretend to be involved with chatting or watching the birds) until he makes some serious attempts at mating, and only intervene if she moves at the crucial moment once he actually penetrates, then on his next attempt quietly approaching the bitch to keep her still, but not making eye contact with the dog will help.  If the bitch is rock steady stay back until after the ladder climbing stops and he looks like he needs to turn, then steady the bitch and if needed help ease the leg being lifted over.

I have found the males look most confused that they can't walk away from the tie the first time.

Thanks, that's very useful Barbara!

The bitch is kinda flirtatious but not excessively so.  A couple times she rushes after him and won't leave his head alone - seeking his attention - but when she gets it, she doesn't always freeze and flag.  She has done a few times, but she doesn't look quite settled into a permanent 'stand' if that makes sense - it's like a 'little' flash stand with flagging, rather than a 'really rooted to the spot' stand and it's a bit of a bendy/soft stand than a proper one.  Does that make sense?

She has not really attempted to mount him, either.  I think once she ended up on his head(!) but not real pelvic thrusting kinda humping of him.  It was more a play jump that went wrong.

We tried leaving them alone together in the kitchen, but they both stood at the stairgate and looked for us.  We chat about other things and have tried ignoring them a bit. 

My hunch is that we are too early still. 

Do you not find that leaving them together for a long period of time, sees them habituate to each other so they lose interest more?  There seem to be 2 approaches to this - leave them together for long amounts of time so they get to play and flirt and relax together versus not doing that because they will get bored of each other and separating them every 20 mins for fresh 'attempts'.  I can see the sense of both and am not sure what to do.

It does sound like it's a little early yet.

In general though I actually find that boys can be keener if kept apart, even if just separated for 30 mins they tend to try a lot harder when reunited. Also with a dog who may be worried about being told off I would let them play and let the bitch flirt then clip a lead on her, leaving him free. With my sensitive boy the way to get him to mount a bitch is to lead her away from him, then he'll chase after and jump on, then I just hold the girl steady, he's much braver when I'm at the head end, I guess he trusts me to keep him safe

When breeding an 'in house' pair, (apart from the fact that in our case, when my bitches were in season they had to be away from the rest anyway), we'd always have them separated because all too often 'familiarity breeds contempt'.   Added to which unless she is 'right on', being told off again, could make any inexperienced male simply give up!  I've never tried mating an unproven male of 4 years either!   I'd suggest she isn't right on yet either, so trying them probably wasn't a good idea.   Hopefully if she's kind, you will get the intended mating!

Chaumsong that’s a great idea! I will get the stud owner to lead my bitch away. He did seem more confident when she was getting more involved.

MamaBas, no telling off has happened. They have just been investigating each other and playing.

> MamaBas, no telling off has happened. They have just been investigating each other and playing

OMG    I'm not talking about being told off at this moment, but what might have happened in the PAST if he tried to mess around with her when she was NOT IN SEASON.   Something my girls would do with our boys, if they overstepped the mark.

If he's ever been scolded for humping then he could well be inhibited from doing so, particularly when people are present.

I'm pretty sure that during his life, he has probably sniffed the bums of dogs and been told off - I think most dogs probably have.  Maybe they wouldn't be as sensitive about it, but he's a sensitive soul.

I agree sounds too early, but I would want them in a bigger space for them to actually play. This will get over the Darby and Joan bit.  Release them outside to play.

Being sensible adults they are less likely to engage in lively play indoors.

What you want is a little Dance and chase, which then leads to arousal in him and she will then realise and stand steady, with the come hither look over the shoulder, then chase again to get him eager.

When I have pairs for mating here I let them outside first thing and after relieving themselves they invariably sniff a bit and then start to play.

If I don't get a mating then I repeat after lunch, but I have invariably got a mating once they are ready in the morning.

I then let them hang out with the rest of the girls (I crate the bitch should I go out leaving him in kitchen with her)where they settle happily

> With my sensitive boy the way to get him to mount a bitch is to lead her away from him, then he'll chase after and jump on, then I just hold the girl steady, he's much braver when I'm at the head end, I guess he trusts me to keep him safe.

Agree movement (of the bitch) does seem to be the key.

It was raining really heavily so we couldn’t go out either time. We will try outdoors again next time.

Oh boy, if only mating Bassets were so easy!   Of course there are some Basset studs that will help themselves (treasure these - we had one who objected strongly to any human involvement!) but for the most part, we have to sit with the bitch across our lap/legs to support her whilst the male gets on with the job.   And even then, holding onto the bitch (or having somebody up the head end) it's possible the male may need 'guidance' to get in the right place    I'm fairly certain that before the breed got stupid big and heavy, this wasn't needed although the weight and length can have it's problems.

Well folks, still no luck.  The timing is definitely right.  She is full cornified with anuclear cells.  It's day 12 and she is flagging and tipping her vulva and practically reversing into him.  If he goes to look at something else, she body blocks him!!! 

Yet he won't even attempt to mount her and his owner says he doesn't mount or hump things - she hasn't told him off, he just doesn't do it.  Doesn't hump other dogs in play either. 

I think we've tried just about everything we can think of and we're pretty exhausted(!).  Anyone holding onto any pearls of wisdom?  He sniffs her, licks her vulva quite a lot, then sometimes gets as far as standing tall to her - but just won't attempt to mount. 

We will try again tomorrow, but she's going to go over soon I think...

> Anyone holding onto any pearls of wisdom?

Ok, my only suggestion is from experience.
The sire of my last litter was told off by a bitch as he mounted her, this was his first litter. Since that time his owner has had to place his front legs on the bitch. When we used him(his 3rd litter) he stayed with us for a week, as his owner was going on holiday at the crucial time. We had 2 matings & the second time we tried to get him to mount our bitch but he wouldn't. He does the job fine, once on the bitch & has sired a total of 10 litters to date.

Thanks Lexy - sadly we tried that one too :(  Picking up his forelegs and putting him on - he just looks a bit confused and gets off. 

I feel like, if we could just somehow elicit some humping - of anything at all(!) - we would be getting the right behaviour.  How do we elicit humping in a dog which rarely humps anything?! 

We have even tried a bit of, um, manual stimulation.  But he just stands there, even that doesn't generate any thrusting.

Such a total lack of libido suggests that the dog shouldn't be used for breeding, even if you could get him to perform. It's not a trait that any breed needs to be successful, I'm afraid. If I was the bitch owner I'd try a proven dog next season.

JG, yes, that's our plan.  And I kind of agree with you on the libido too, although I do think if he were used at a younger age, it would have been a very different story.

I wouldn't be too sure; I once used a 7 year old maiden dog (with a very experienced and willing bitch!) and he knew exactly what to do! A very nice litter resulted.

I've come across 3 dogs of two breeds that would not mate. The first time the dog had produced two litters but I was told he was always very reluctant and had only mated bitches he lived with. I took the bitch to a different dog the next day (having tried for 3 days ) got one mating and a litter. This was day 17.

The second time was a dog that had never mated any bitch, despite several attempts. He just wouldn't try. Again we went for second choice of dog and got a litter.

The third time it was the dog that worked in the first scenario, but this time he would not mate - and he'd produced a litter in between. I had a word with my long term mentor and she suggested that I used one of my own dogs. Got a mating and a large litter. This was literally hours after the other had refused, and first time for the dog and bitch.

Not sure if it is relevant, but the 3 dogs that refused were all imports. Are breeders abroad using ai too much so that the male dogs are losing some of their natural ability to mate? On the other hand, the dog in the final scenario, the first timer who did mate, he was an import too.

And finally, in 2016 I wanted to mate my import dog to a bitch of my own - both proven. Owning both meant I was able to try every day. (My stud dogs are kennelled so the bitch did not know the dog properly. ) She refused, throughout the entire season. She absolutely would not let him mate her.

A year later I tried again with the same pair and ended up with two matings without any problems and a nice litter.

So who knows why dogs act like they do at times.

That's bizarre and interesting, goldmali!

We have given up now and are choosing another stud for next time round.  It's such a minefield, finding one which ticks all the boxes.

I don't think, for this stud, that it's about anything genetic.  His sire is a very popular stud owned by a stud owner with multiple 'busy' studs and saw a lot of female dogs for successful matings.  There aren't any imports in his pedigree, or any AIs listed.  (And it's not a breed where AIs are done really.)

> His sire is a very popular stud owned by a stud owner

Why not go to the sire ......

Because the COI is too high without the bitch line.