After much research and waiting for what seemed the perfect puppy, I finally reserved my basset bleu de Gascogne with a French breeder who appeared to be well known and successful in the show ring and breed. I contacted her and stated that I intended to show, and asked her advice on which puppy showed promise.
We reserved 'Odette' after several weeks to give time for her to develop her features and she looked fine and promising.
The time came to collect and we travelled from UK to France to pick her up. She was a little thin and appeared to have a slightly funky eye but nothing scary, and had just had a supposed clean bill of health by her vet.
On our return to the UK, I took puppy for 2 vet appointments regarding her eye, and even informed the breeder she was getting treatment. Then on day 9, I looked myself and found a stitch on the inside of her eyelid! The vet hadn't picked this up despite 2 examinations (whole other story).
I messaged the breeder who then informed me she had had surgery 2 weeks prior to correct cherry eye!!
If I had known this I would not have had the puppy! She is now useless for shows and breeding, and my insurance will never cover her for any further treatment.
I have told the breeder I wish to return her for full refund (day 10 following pick up) and am now being ignored.  Am I right in thinking that if I get no response that small claims court is the next step?

What a sad story. Unfortunately UK law and French law are different, and it might well be a case of 'caveat emptor'. If the FCI allows dogs to be shown and bred from if they've had cherry eye surgery then the French breeder hasn't broken any French rules. It'll need a solicitor experienced in international laws to unravel this one. Good luck!

Surely the insurance would only treat the cherry eye as an existing conditions, nothing else ?

They will probably excluded anything to do with eyes and in both unfortunately. Although insurance   isn't the only problem

Extract from FCI show criteria:

CANNOT BE JUDGED. This rating is to be given to any dog which does not move, which is
lame, which constantly jumps up and down on its handler or tries to get out of the ring,
which makes it impossible to assess the gait and the movement or avoids constantly to be
examined by the judge and makes it impossible to inspect teeth, anatomy and structure, tail
or testicles. This rating is also to be given if traces of operations or treatment can be
observed which seem to indicate that the exhibitor wanted to deceive the judge. The same
applies if the judge has ample reason to suspect operations that were intended to correct
the original condition or feature (e.g.: eyelid, ear or tail).

Seems pretty solid to me!!

You would have to go through the European small claims not UK. Depending on how much you are suing for the limit is €5,000 not GBP.

You will need to get things in motion soon due to Article 50 being invoked in March

Would just be travel and vet costs and price of the puppy. I will start the process and give her a chance to accept an offer. If no luck I will go to small claims.
Thankyou

This rating is also to be given if traces of operations or treatment can be
observed which seem to indicate that the exhibitor wanted to deceive the judge. The same
applies if the judge has ample reason to suspect operations that were intended to correct
the original condition or feature (e.g.: eyelid, ear or tail).

Does it say anywhere else that surgery has to be reported to the FCI like we have to to the KC here? Otherwise I don't see that the above makes any difference if the judge does NOT notice any signs of surgery - if 2 vets failed to spot a stitch still being in, then presumably a judge would not notice anything with the stitch gone. But the wording is odd -saying the judge has to notice or suspect something. So if it's not noticed it's okay??

Is cherry eye genetic? I've only ever experienced it in a kitten and that was due to an injury (a small piece of cat litter had lodged behind the eye) and it went away.

Very sad situation all told. Hope you get it sorted. Really awkward when it's abroad.

There is evidence saying it is an inherited condition, and that if it happens to one eye, it will eventually happen to the other too.
Sadly now that the internal inflammation has settled down, her eye has a noticeable droop that would certainly be picked up by a judge- a well known side effect of tacking the gland to the eyelid, pulling it down.

She's still presumably very young, and there is plenty of time for the skin to tighten up as she matures, and hopefully it will. As this is an international situation it makes the legal aspect much more complicated, I'm afraid.

Dogs with Cherry Eye normally have a genetic disposition to this.  From the link I'll post here on the subject.

As for showing, you'd have to get onto the KC here re 'permission to show', which you may not get with this surgery which is corrective.

Be warned too, sometimes with Cherry Eye, there can be dryness left after surgery which may mean daily drops.   I do wonder why this was done before she was older - this can sometimes be massaged back in place without needing surgery, although it can pop out again.   Personally I'd have left it until the hound was older before resorting to surgery.   AND YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD!!  Especially if you intended to show/breed.

Clearly this being a French breeder, you have a nasty and difficult situation to deal with and one I have no idea how you would approach, but for sure, the breeder needs to know what's gone on - and see a copy of your vet bill.   If she values her reputation she should offer to either take the puppy back (would you part with her now, or be that able to get her back?) or make a partial at least, refund for her cost given she's now useless for breeding, if not showing.   Yes, you'll have to locate a lawyer who knows about French Law, at least.

So sorry for you.   Having after how-many years had to be involved in buying in, I now realise what a minefield it is out there!!

https://www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-advice/cherry-eye-dogs

I'd also suggest contacting the French breed club.  A breeders reputation within their breed is most important to them above anything else.

As above. It may be worth a preliminary question to a lawyer, asking what your chances of success would be if you had to go to court in France. Barry Peachey, A G Fox Law, might be a good person to ask. Fortnightly ad in Our Dogs, or email chairman@animallawyers.co.uk
I do feel for the puppy in this case, you will not be able to bond with her in these circumstances. The affair needs to be resolved quickly for her sake.

It's the pup that I feel sorry for.....  Why can't you put it down to experience and find the pup a good home rather than the alternative which is a pup in an unwanted home for an indeterminate length of time.  As a dog lover doing this would be my priority even though right now I am sure it feels like eating glass.....

> It's the pup that I feel sorry for.....  Why can't you put it down to experience and find the pup a good home rather than the alternative which is a pup in an unwanted home for an indeterminate length of time.

True!!    Have you considered approaching somebody else, in this country, with this breed to see whether this French breeder is 'known' for dodgy dealings?    I'd go carefully in case word gets back and you find yourself accused of defaming these breeders ..... not that you'd have grounds.  Keep to THE FACTS - and perhaps do this without naming names, if you can?

https://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/basset-bleu-de-gascogne/owners     There is just one listed in this country - I know nothing about her tho.

> to see whether this French breeder is 'known' for dodgy dealings?

> do this without naming names, if you can?

Well that's going to be tough

> It's the pup that I feel sorry for.

Absolutely, another reason I think breeders should only sell pups as pets first and foremost, certainly they can say which ones have showing or breeding potential, but ensure it's going to a home that will keep it no matter what.

I would only sell a puppy (of my breed because at 10 weeks or thereabouts, you CAN only see 'potential')  as a show prospect/with potential, and then pray!    If people want a dead-cert show/breeding animals, they should try to persuade a breeder to part with one who has had some wins in the ring already - and that would cost a deal more than a 10 week puppy with potential would.   Our show hounds were always our pets first.

To another comment I made - 'do this without naming names if possible ... ' of course, which is why I'd suggest going in with caution!   See if you can bring any conversation you might have round to a name being mentioned

I note there are no BB de G breeders in France, listed in this place.   Hum.

I agree with Goldmali, this is the relevant bit: 

>if the judge has ample reason to suspect

Is a judge going to have ample reason to suspect?  Are they going to notice something which a vet failed to notice twice on 2 exams?  Probably not.  Could you therefore successfully show the pup?  Probably yes.  Should you breed from the pup?  Probably not.  UNLESS the pup turns out to be ultra successful and have other outstanding features and can be put to a dog with zero eye issues in his line...

I do think it's going to be a tough one.  You could start by giving Trevor Cooper a call at Dog Law and pay for a phone consultation with him.  The UK IS part of the EU (just) and so he should have useful information on EU law as well or be able to signpost you on...

This is a rare bred only just establishing in the UK, so anyone buying one would be hoping to have something that will be a positive addition to the gene pool here.

So importing is about something more than a dog purely as a pet.

As breeders and even importers we have all been disappointed to find our promising swans turn into geese, but usually they have at least been suitable for breeding on from for their lines. Rarely with known lines have we qahd to scrap our plans due to a health heritable problem. This pup had an apparent fault, that has a genetic propensity.

As the pup has to be 16 weeks by the time it is picked up, a fault such as this was obvious and really the breeder should have sold it on as a pet locally and offer3d the buyer a better prospect from a future litter or passed tehm to someone else with something decent.

Thankyou All.

The breeder has agreed to refund me €600. A small portion of what was paid out, but none the less, acceptable.
I will endeavour to find pup a suitable home.

The breeder is still insisting innocence, some people are just dense. I'm baffled.

what that the op didn't happen or that it wont make any difference to your plans ?

That it won't make any difference to my plans.

How odd . From the information on other comments and your own views it will.do if u are a responsible breeder.which u obviously are.

I hadn't realized.cherry eye was  genetic.although I know it's quite  common in some breeds. always good to  learn

Makes.me.wonder about her morals

I hope u find the pup the right pet home now or are able.to keep her as a pet yourself and decide how to move on from this experience

>The breeder is still insisting innocence,

How can they insist innocence if there are stitches in the eyelid and they agreed they were put there by their vet?  Do you mean they are saying they didn't know that would be a problem?

Knowing from another site that working with others in this country your hopes had been to import & hopefully breed, I'm even more shocked of the response of the pups owner.

Onetwothreefour: She insists that it won't affect showing or breeding however it will. Visually she has a defect, and the chances of KC giving permission to show are nil, as she has had corrective surgery.  And having spoken to the only 2 breeders in the country, they would not stud out to me for her, which was the plan.

Begs the question re what's going on, with any breed, in France, if they will allow showing/breeding from a dog who does have a fault.  And there is a genetic involvement with Cherry Eye, corrected or not - and then again as said, you'd have to see if the KC here would grant you permission to show!!  Not.

How could any breeder, having had surgery to correct, deny responsibility in selling you a defective puppy, knowing what you wanted of it (re showing/breeding).   Of course a breeder would import the best available, especially given a small gene pool!   I'd have thought any breeder, sending out a representative of their bloodlines, would WANT to sent the best they have??    I imported (into Canada from the UK when we lived out there), twice.   The first my foundation bitch and the second, later on, a male to enhance my bloodline.  In both cases, I bought in for their bloodlines first - any ability to show was a bonus, given my breed are slow maturing and how often does a promising puppy not achieve their early potential.   My bitch import was 5 months at the time, and the male 7 months.   Both took their Canadian Ch. titles, as it happened.

Still at least they repaid you some of the cost of all this, if not the entire sum!!  But you've still had to go back to square one re importing.

> She insists that it won't affect showing or breeding however it will.

> And having spoken to the only 2 breeders in the country, they would not stud out to me for her,

I quite agree, establishing a strong foundation for a new breed is a heavy responsibility, and only the best material should be used, and I am shocked and surprised at the breeders attitude.

It should have been a point of pride to send only the best they could to help establish the breed properly here.

Looking to establish a new breed(to country) of any animal I wouldn't be looking at a very young animal. Far safer(albeit more expensive)a mature animal of good quality with all health testing done & possibly a good track record in competition &/or(especially in the case of males)a good breeding record. Anyone willing to part with an animal of this quality is more likely to want to help the buyer.

In sheep it's common to loan the males out(do it myself occasionally)to help improve/establish their breed. Females don't have such an influence as they usually have less offspring.

If I was going to go into dog breeding I would go via the National Breed club, in the country the dogs live,for guidance & help, rather than individual breeders in the first place

>Looking to establish a new breed(to country) of any animal I wouldn't be looking at a very young animal. Far safer(albeit more expensive)a mature animal of good quality with all health testing done & possibly a good track record in competition &/or(especially in the case of males)a good breeding record.

I agree, a young puppy is always a gamble, with no guarantee of whether it will fulfil its youthful promise.

> I agree, a young puppy is always a gamble, with no guarantee of whether it will fulfil its youthful promise.

True BUT as was the case with my two imports, I did a load of research before buying AND again, based on my research into background, I was prepared to focus on those bloodlines, ahead of any show success.  And in a numerically small breed (I don't know about the numbers/gene pool in France for this breed) it may not be possible to persuade a breeder to part with a good animal.      Again, sending an excellent dog to a new country, would reflect well on that breeder   Far more so than what's happened with this pup.  Who is going to buy from that breeder now???

>Again, sending an excellent dog to a new country, would reflect well on that breeder

Most definitely, only the very best of puppies should be exported, especially if their future involves anything more than that of simple companion. So it's important to be very clear about what the rules of the different countries - what's acceptable in one might not be so in the other.

Just found your advert (I'm assuming, going by the description!) on another website, advertising the sale of that sweet girl.   If I was allowed to (2-dog limit here) I'd have her in a trice.   I'm loving her ticking, which of course the B de G should have - I always like this in my own.  Having used an American-bred stud dog (in the country for a short period) who was really a black and white with only a small amount of tan, but with heavy black ticking, I inherited this in mine.

I hope a super home comes along for her.  *** I do wonder whether you should get her spayed before letting her go, and put full endorsements on her (can you?).   I'd hate to see somebody grab her, especially as she's of a 'rare breed' in this country.

***   Looking again at the advert, and given her current age, I note you will be withholding the paperwork until you have proof that spaying has been done, from the new owners - 4 months is a touch young to be spayed after all.   I hope you find people you can trust with this!   I realise you now want her out of there asap, but if she were mine, I think I'd prefer to hold onto her and get her spayed by my own vet.  Just my opinion.

I realise you don't want to hear more about her BUT since this breed is supposed to be of similar construction to the Basset (if not nearly as heavy boned or loose skinned) personally even at her young age, I'd not want to see her quite as wide in front even if she might look better once the chest has dropped.   Again that would suggest it would be better to buy an adult with some wins and a finished construction, if it was going to be contributing to the gene pool in this country.  IF you do this again, it would be a good idea to go to France to SEE what you are buying, and with respect taking somebody experienced with the breed with you, for their opinion.

I do hope you can find a home where they know a bit about the Basset - even more important with a version of the breed where the 'hunting' is still there - so they will need good fencing and the ability to get inside her head so there's no 'stubborn' going on.  Being a female, she should maybe be more bidable than the male.  Ideally she should do best with a family who knows about 'bassets' so they know what to expect and will avoid a confrontation.  I watched, just the once and never again, the current Dogs Behaving (very) Badly on Ch. 5 where there was a male Basset who was completely out of control in terms of resource guarding.   I cringed at the advice being given.   The boy was regularly up on the breakfast bar - but although the 'trainer' managed to get him to get off, using a lead and 'down', why he didn't tell the owners to MOVE THE SOFA from away from the counter I really don't understand.  The dog got up there and snarled and would bite, if challenged.  The silly owner was chasing the dog round the kitchen table when he got hold of something he shouldn't have had too.   Head in hand from me.   Clearly the trainer didn't have any idea about what makes a Basset tick.  You don't confront them EVER - you use AVOIDANCE/PREVENTION and TRADE.   That hound wasn't a bad dog, just in the wrong hands - and they should have known better, with 2 rescue Bassets already.

> put full endorsements on her (can you?).

Yes you can, the owner (not just the breeder) can put this on while the animal is in their physical possession.

Like MamaBas, think she is gorgeous.
Do understand that things have not worked out as you'd hoped, but is there no way you could keep her rather than advertising her on such a site or could those owners/breeders here in the UK perhaps assist with someone they know?

Lacy: neither breeders have anyone waiting for pet only pups, in fact because they are such an unknown breed, they don't have waiting lists.
Unfortunately if I keep her, I cannot have more in the future, (2 adult dogs is my limit) and therefore my effort to help establish the breed will be done. I would love to keep her, I really would, but I would be closing so many doors for myself, the breed and the other breeders, after so much effort.

I will be writing a contract to state that she remains under my name until she is spayed at between 12 and 18 months, and a few other sentences to protect her as best i can.

Another suggestion re this lovely puppy - If you have a 2-dog limit, would one of the 2 B de G breeders be prepared to take her and keep her safe (from being bred - endorsements only mean the puppies can't be KC Registered - they won't stop her from being mated ..... and it seems from THAT website especially, that even non KC registered puppies command a significant price.    If one of those two breeders kept her to the age she can be spayed and then sell her, at least you'd know she wasn't being used as a breeding machine.   You may have to pay for boarding and pick up any vet costs, in the interim.

I think that would be way better than hoping you get somebody trustworthy via the website you are using!!  My opinion.

Make sure to put a no breeding and export endorsement on her KC papers.

I must be too soft, I've had dogs not make the grade but I kept them and couldn't flog them on like an unwanted jersey.

As you are selling the puppy whatever contract you draw up re breeding etc will not stand up in a court of law. Unless you have registered the puppy with the KC you wont be able to stop the buyers from registering any puppies from her & get them to sign to say they have been told about this. You canmot force them to spay her nor not breed from her.English law doesn't work like this.

I've kept several dogs that haven't made the grade dispite the dog being solely bred to work from working parents, dogs are not like a pair of unwanted shoes

Yes but better to find a loving wanted home.  She is not wanted where she is.   They are similar to basset hounds aren't they?  Is it possible that someone has registered on champdogs for a basset pup and might be interested in yours.  Is it worth contacting basset breeders to find out whether there are any lists?  Fingers crossed that appropriate owners come forward, that would be such a happy ending for little Sapphire.

" endorsements only mean the puppies can't be KC Registered - they won't stop her from being mated ..... and it seems from THAT website especially, that even non KC registered puppies command a significant price.   "

> Make sure to put a no breeding and export endorsement on her KC papers.

Again endorsements only mean the puppies can't be KC Registered ..... and again the unscrupulous could well breed from her, getting a good price for her puppies, regardless of not being KC Registered.

FAR BETTER not to sell her until she goes from you (or as my other suggestion, another BB de G breeder who might be willing to take her in until she is old enough to be spayed) SPAYED!!   I hate to think what her future could be.   People will tell you what they know YOU want to hear.   And that website isn't known for being a good one (re potential owners) much as reputable breeders are using it, more and more, of late.

If you are restricted by numbers, I still think you should be able to keep 1 extra for a few more months ..... how long before you can sort out a 'replacement' in any case?  That could well take months, by which time your bitch would be old enough to be spayed.     And re your number restriction, if you buy in another, you'd still be unable to keep a puppy from her or will you aim to sell all of any litter?

I'd agree with not being able to part with her, much as she'd be a passenger.  We have kept those who didn't come ujp to their early promise, when we weren't restricted by numbers - we also sold a buy-in bitch because she was disrupting our small pack, big time.

Add -  " Is it possible that someone has registered on champdogs for a basset pup and might be interested in yours."
Worth a try, definitely!!   Even via Basset Welfare/Rescue.  Or given your location, the S of England BHC

I'd take her off Pets4 .............!!

> Unless you have registered the puppy with the KC

According to the advert elsewhere, she is KC Registered.

Surely only having room in your life for 2 adult dogs would limit the impact you can actually have on the expansion of the breed. What happens when an adult becomes an oldie? And what about running puppies on until you decide who to keep, can you do that when you reach your 2 dog capacity?

Garbo - my thoughts exactly.  I don't breed but I understand the dilemmas breeders must have when deciding how many dogs they can keep under one roof.  If only two adults can be kept it does not leave much scope for running on pups from a litter, campaigning the older ones and keeping oldies ...

> Garbo - my thoughts exactly.

Mine too.   With oldies (we very rarely let those we made the decision to run on, go and even less so, once in their final years ) and the new generations, running on one or two (at least) numbers can very quickly escalate unless very hard and able to let one of those held back, be homed later on.   We started off all wrong with 2 males, the first quickly becoming a passenger.   Then we bought our foundation bitch - so were up to 4 right there     At one point, with 2 long-term boarders and a litter, we were pushing 12 hounds.

Obviously if there are number-restrictions, for whatever reason, activities have to fit the situation!!

I would just add that the breeder of one of my hounds, who had an antique shop in a Hertfordshire town, would produce a litter and then once they were old enough, but too young to make a final decision about 'the best', would have friends with room/kennels to take on the litters she had.   That way her numbers were kept down, in accordance with the accommodation available.   Best of both worlds really.   But she was quite 'hard'!!   One might say, a business woman.

Thanks for all your concern.

I have hopefully found her a new home with a mother and daughter who are literally (and i mean literally) round the corner from myself and have working cocker spaniels, and just want a trekking companion.

They suggested spaying asap, but I have suggested they wait for development which they're happy with, they're not interested in KC documents, so I don't know whether to bother keeping them or transferring them.

I can still take her for walks, have her if they go away etc.  I trust them 100% . Perfect.

She's having a trial run with them at the end of the week for a couple of days, so fingers crossed!

That is fantastic news - made my evening.  Well done you and fingers crossed that Sapphire doesn't let you down.