Hi
I have a bitch that I am trying to mate. She is on day 12 of her season. At 8pm last night she had a blood test that showed her progesterone levels to be 22.75mg. They advised me to mate her ASAP and then again 24 hours later. I took her to the stud this morning. As she is a maiden she put up quite a fight but eventually they tied. The breeder has said to wait 48 hours for the second mating. People who took the blood are saying this is too late. I’m a rookie at all this so I’d be grateful of some advice please.
Thanks

As her levels were spot on, one mating may be sufficient anyway.  Sperm lives for up to 5/7 days anyway.  It is normal to leave 48 hours between matings

Thanks Ells Bells. I hope you’re right. The breeder said mating again in 24 hours would be a waste of time. However the people who took her blood said I should push for tomorrow especially as it was a difficult mating. So confused

> as it was a difficult mating.

If it was difficult I wouldn't want to force her, and would not bother with a 2nd mating.

Was she difficult to mate?  Was it your vet who took the bloods and gave you the results etc?

Hi
No I didn’t use my vets as they couldn’t get results for 48 hours. I used a company called North West Pet Scanning. She wasn’t easy to mate. She was trying to get away and curl her bottom under. The breeder of the stud said this was due to her being a maiden and not sure what was going on.

Did they have much time to get to know each other beforehand?  A maiden shouldn't behave as you describe, if she is of sound temperament, the timing is right and she is given time to play and 'court' the stud. 

I'm sorry to say this but I would only trust Idexx for running progesterone tests.  The machine needs to be regularly calibrated in order to give accurate results and many small scale progesterone testers simply don't do this, leading to wildly varying results and a lack of reliability.  In addition the blood needs to be spun down properly, not haemolysed etc etc.  It is always best to get your vet to draw the blood and have it sent to Idexx. 

(And even Idexx are not fool proof, as an experience I had with them proved to me!)

It is very possible that the progesterone test was wrong and that she is already 'over' and too late - or that, in the time between the test being taken and the time you've taken her to the stud, her levels have gone up further meaning she is now totally over.

Assuming the test is right, you are already into this category:

65 - 90 Nmol or 20.4 - 28.3ng ova mature but ageing, decreased fertility. Breed at once

Personally, I would not take her back for another mating (whether one day or 2 days) because it's likely she will definitely be over by that time so it's pointless in terms of trying to conceive puppies and it is very unethical to force her to accept the male (besides being counterproductive and ruining her feelings about being mated for the future and any future breedings you might want to do with her). 

If you do achieve a pregnancy it is likely to be very small, with a high risk of a singleton pup.

Hi
The breeder didn’t believe in them playing/courting first, said it doesn’t work.  My dog has an amazing temperament and is usually very calm. The breeder felt inside her first - she said she was quite tight and she had to break an elastic band (?) as she was a maiden. My girl wasn’t keen on this. The breeder also said she was pulsing inside. I’m really stressed out knowing what to do for the best. Been given so many different opinions.

Feel sorry for your poor bitch ...not the way any of my maiden bitches have had their experience of breeding. Much prefer courting & a more natural introduction...yes one may need to intervene to stop the bitch going for the male at the wrong time.

It sounds as if your poor bitch had a really bad first experience!   If she really wasn't bang on ready to mate, although the sperm does 'last' once in the right place, I'd suggest another mating, 48 hours later 'might' be worth trying.   However, again as bitches may not conceive on the day of the mting, and given how rough this mating was, I think I'd not bother going back and hope she has taken.   Just my opinion.

Too bad the owner of the stud dog had that attitude with your maiden bitch.

ps    Re the 'ring'/ elastic band ....  http://www.thedogplace.org/reproduction/breeding-problems-rp1007_andrews.asp   Scroll down to the relevant paragraph.

It sounds to me (IF the breeder was right!) that your bitch had a stricture:  http://www.thedogplace.org/reproduction/breeding-problems-rp1007_andrews.asp 

Usually the right approach to this, is for a vet to remove it - this can be a very simple and quick procedure as long as the stricture isn't thick or large.  It can be extremely painful for the stud to try to penetrate if the bitch has a stricture in place, and that could also explain her response. 

Did the stud owner say this before you attempted a mating or afterwards?  If before, then it would carry more weight to me, than if he said it afterwards.  (That would sound more like trying to find an excuse or a reason for the mating not having been easy - and as he's not a vet, I'd be a bit dubious about his 'findings' there.)

If she doesn't take from this mating, I would really encourage you to get her examined by a repro vet or a vet with repro experience to see if she does have a stricture.  It would be best to do this when she is in heat as she will be much more accepting of people poking about up there, then.  (Otherwise she may need a sedation to be examined if you want to be able to breed on her next season.) 

Dogs should always be allowed to court each other and to play if they want to, even just a few minutes.  Nature has set things up the way they go, for a reason!

Hi
The breeder felt inside her first and that’s when she mentioned the ‘elastic band.’  The breeder said she’d she’d released it. This was prior to the mating taking place. The breeder is very experienced and has many dogs and quite a number of litters each year.

There is no reason for such physical intervention by the stud dog owner, the hymen is normally "broken"during mating, if there had been a vaginal stricture it should have been sorted out by a vet not a lay person & tbh any breeding animal with a stricture shouldn't really been bred from as it could be 1. Hereditary & 2. Any correction could affect the bitch giving birth depending on the type & nature of the stricture.

>The breeder didn’t believe in them playing/courting first, said it doesn’t work.

Poor little bitch, that's so very wrong. In my experience the most satisfactory results come from first allowing the bitch to run loose with the dog on the lead for a few minutes, then let the dog off lead as well, to flirt and court. This relaxes the bitch, especially a nervous maiden, and when the bitch is allowing the dog to mount but not penetrate she can be gently but firmly held steady and the mating will be accomplished quickly and easily. To not allow the courting phase means that the bitch was effectively raped.

Good post jeangenie .I was thinking the same and feeling really sorry for the poor bitch. Wouldn't be surprised if she isn't able to mate again after the description that was given of what was done and how she reacted


The breeder is very experienced and has many dogs and quite a number of litters each year


That doesn't make it what they did right. Sounds like it's very much a business to them, with no consideration for the dog/bitch concerned. A friend of mine is a very experienced dog breeder(over 50 plus years)their stud dogs are allowed to flirt & 'court' the bitches & rarely need to the bitch held throughout the mating, only when actual mating almost underway to steady & calm the bitch if needed

Well some of your comments have made me feel dreadful. The original post asked for advice regarding a second mating. I was not asking for judgment on the way the breeder handled the mating. I adore my girl, only want the best for her. Some of you have made me feel like I’ve done something terrible to her

Not you, the owner of the dog you used, so another time you will be more aware this is not common practice.

> Some of you have made me feel like I’ve done something terrible to her

Because she was raped?

If the bitch is what we call a maiden bitch which means this is the first time she has been mated, she will appreciate being courted for a longer period. So be patient with her!

Best practice when conducting a mating, from this very helpful page.

I can understand how u must feel given the what u have just learned from sensible knowledgeable breeders here. I would take it as a learning g curve and  perhaps reconsider any further matings with this bitch unless she is happy
.should u decide to mate any bitch on another occasion u will have more knowledgde as to what is kinder and correct
. Not your fault what happened sadly we do someyimes learn the hard way

In your shoes i would put aside this experience and look after your bitch who I am sure u care about very much and if she is pregnant hopefully she will be a great mum

> The original post asked for advice regarding a second mating. I was not asking for judgment on the way the breeder handled the mating.

My personal view is that I wouldn't take my bitch back to that stud dog owner. I'd leave her with just the one mating (a single mating can result in a very good-sized litter) and if she takes from it, she takes. If she doesn't then I'd choose another stud dog from a different owner next season, and try again, with your new knowledge on the best way to proceed so that your girl is happy with the experience. Good luck!

‘Raped’... come on practice could be debated but using such emotive language is less than helpful.

You're absolutely right. Let's say "Forcibly mated against her will" instead.

> You're absolutely right. Let's say "Forcibly mated against her will" instead.

I keep thinking about the fact that your female is/was on "day 12".  I know you did a progesterone test, but I have had opportunity (myself and other breeders in my breed) to learn that those progi-tests can be way off the mark. 

I have experienced time and again (50 litters) that day 12 is often just simply too early!  In fact, my females often seem to be truly "à point" on days 15, 16 17.  I have observed this especially in recent years because my two males live with us.

So maybe a second try at mating might be worth it.  I would probably try, but I would be sure not to force anything at all, just quietly give them another chance.  If the first mating you describe in fact did - in the end - occur on its own without any human interference, then perhaps it was not as traumatic for the female as one is assuming.
I'd just give it another chance, without any hype or big ado, just let them be together again and see what happens.

I disagree re trying for another mating with this particular breeder/stud dog.   Frankly if I knew a maiden bitch of mine had that kind of experience, there's no way I'd risk repeating it happening again.   If the male was keen and mated with her, she probably was ready, physically, if not mentally.

I know breeders like to see two good matings, but really only one is 'necessary'.   Assuming he penetrated.   With one of my two males, one slip tie was 99.9% fruitful.   He only missed to one bitch (we didn't allow our males to mate with many outside bitches) and, as written before, she came back next season to my other male and missed again.  Similar with a third attempt they had, to another stud dog.   Clearly the problem wasn't with mine.   I'm assuming this maiden bitch is young so even if she hasn't taken this time, there's plenty of time to try again on her next season WITH A DIFFERENT BREEDER/MALE!!

Only one mating is needed for success - IF the timing is right. 

If we go by the progesterone results given here, if anything, we are too late or verging on being too late.  So another mating even LATER, isn't going to help at all. 

Of course, the progesterone tests could be wrong - it happens.  It's happened to me, I had a test telling me nothing was happening yet and to test again in 5 days.  Instead we were at the stud's by then and tried for a mating and got one easily with a 20min tie.  Only to get the result I just mentioned.  Conclusion - a good sized litter.  So, whether it's the lab screwing up or the vet hemolysing the blood, these things can go wrong.

I had a similar experience; the ovulation pads told me she'd ovulated and to mate in 2 days, but the bloods said she was nowhere near ovulation and to retest in 5 days. Due to the stud dog owner's illness we couldn't wait, so went by the pads, the bitch's behaviour and the stud dog's reaction. We got a nice litter of 6.

> The breeder didn’t believe in them playing/courting first, said it doesn’t work.

Strange, that is who it works in the wild and with feral dogs, or when you don't want them to mate.

Every mating that I have had in 24 years has been after the pair have ben allowed to play, and with minimal interference, and only assistance being given in the tie, in case the bitch tries to roll once the tie is formed and many become uncomfortable.

A bitch that is ready will stand for the male, perhaps fidgeting a little so can be encouraged to stand still once it is apparent she is willing.

Only difficulty I eve had was with a bitch who was obviously6 eager to mate but insisted on playing the male part, so she needed keeping still at the crucial moment as she kept air humping when the male mounted.  Her daughter was one I had to hold in the tie as she would lift all four feet off the ground and roll.

I have recently mated a maiden bitch of 3 1/2 and to be honest she did all the legwork as far as courtship went, and they were both technically maidens (he had had a bitch but only slip matings resulted).

> In fact, my females often seem to be truly "à point" on days 15, 16 17.

Those are the most usual days here too, though one bitch was 18 - 22 days, and her daughter a day or two less.  Granddaughter just mated was day 15, 17 and 18.

I do wonder whether with bitches indoor pets as opposed to kennel dogs whether we pick up on the start of a season sooner, so it appears they are mated later than in the past.

I know that many of us tissue test, and will notice the very first spot of blood, which you would miss with a bitch outdoors.

I think some of these things are quite breed specific.  I have a friend who breeds a different breed to mine, and she routinely mates around days 8-10 with successful litters.