Anyone used Metrobactin for giardia in puppy, my 16 week old pup has this and vet put him on it, as the strain he has is also immune to the "normal" antybs, just wondered if anyone has used it with any success...?

Thanks in advance.

When my current Basset came to us, at 4 months, producing nasty stools, it was discovered (fecal) that he had Giardia, and roundworm eggs despite being assured he'd been wormed.    A course of Panacur didn't produce the results we wanted so he was moved onto Metronidazole (Flagyl) which then produced clear results.   I had several fecal tests done, including for my Whippet (clear).  

I have checked Metrobactin online, and see the following -

"Treatment of gastrointestinal tract infections caused by Giardia spp. and Clostridia spp. (i.e. C. perfringens or C. difficile)."

So is he treating the cause, and not the Giardia?   I know nothing about different 'strains'.   But I'm not a qualified vet 

For giardia, there are 2 meds which are used:  Panacur (non-prescription wormer, which is not an AB) and metronidazole (AB, prescription-only).  (Metrobactin is a brand name for metronidazole.)

Giardia is usually responsive to one or the other.  Usually vets try Panacur first because it's not an AB and has fewer risk of side effects, but often only metronidazole works.

There are no other ABs commonly used for giardia, but there are other bacterial infections (ie coccidia) which are common in young puppies and which other ABs treat (ie Synulox).  If you want to know whether you're on the right AB, you need to run a stool sample to get a diagnosis first - or the proof is in the pudding.  Or the pooping, in this case.

Thanks for your replies, been to see another vet this morning and  he put him on  2 weeks of Metronidazole, and to come back if no improvement, (as if I wouldn't! ),so just have to wait and see, heres hoping it works, then to take in another poo sample....now have a stock of poo pots....

You should know almost immediately, within 24-48hrs there will be a huge improvement back to pretty much normal if it's going to work.

Be sure to use lots of probiotics to replenish the gut bacteria in between the doses of ABs and for many weeks afterwards.  AT 16wks, his microbiome would not have been rich and established and now has been nuked with ABs, so you need to rebuild it - a huge amount of the immune system is in the microbiome.

Just to add that from my experience with this, and it was the first time we'd EVER had a puppy/adult with Giardia so I read up on it quite a lot, even after getting clear fecals, my boy would start the day with normal stools, but far from that by the end of the day.   This continued for some time before a vet who was visiting the Practice I was using at the time, suggested he had a tray of Hills I/D followed by home-made fish and mashed potato.   I did this and the result was amazing and such a relief not to have to keep worrying about what the next batch of pooh was going to be like.    After a while on the home-made died (coley and potato) I switched him onto Arden Grange Sensitive which is fish and potato too but with extras that my home-made diet didn't have.    He didn't look back although after being on it for a long time, and I did try him on less expensive food which didn't work, I made a mistake ordering a 'special' AG had and hit the button for Salmon and Rice.   Rather than try to return the 2 bags, which they had agreed to let me do, I tried him on that and he was fine.  It's slightly less expensive too!    I have both of them on this, plus a small amount of Butchers Tripe mix and for treats, Morrisons own biscuits and/or Fish4Dogs Sea Jerky squares.

Thanks very much for all your advice we have seen a huge difference in 24 hrs, firm poos, cant believe it tbh, so on these tabs for 2 weeks then wait a week and been told to take in another poo sample, (just waiting for it to start again when we stop the tabs,) have got some yudigest in and getting probiotic yoghurt today,he is currently on sensitive salmon and potato Simpsons, food which he loves....will update... thanks once again for info, much appreciated..

goldenhound, that is a good sign.

I have some words of caution about repeating the stool sample a week after stopping the tablets.  Many dogs test positive for giardia but have no clinical signs - in some studies, half of all dogs randomly tested were positive for giardia, and yet their stools and health was fine.  As a result, it is controversial whether giardia should be treated based on finding it in stools, IF there are no clinical symptoms.  Because the drugs used to treat it (including metronidazole) are powerful and carry the risk of side effects - so if an animal is healthy, why treat them?  See https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11343&catId=34572&id=5124224&ind=185&objTypeID=17&print=1 

Stool samples are also costly... So personally, if the symptoms stay away once the meds stop, I wouldn't go back for a repeat stool sample. 

Take care with probiotic yoghurt - many dogs can't digest lactose and it can cause diarrhoea.  Moreover, dogs' stomach acid is so strong that the probiotics in yoghurt don't reach the gut - where they are needed.  So I don't recommend that. 

I recommend using a broad spectrum probiotic product containing a wide range of probiotics - not just enterrococcus faecium, which is what the majority of canine probiotics consist of.  For example, see:  http://amzn.eu/dgR6lNA  This has 12 strains of probiotics in it.

I had 3 fecal tests done after the course of Metron. and when they all came back neg. I assumed all was well.   However, as said, my lad produced 'perfect' stools first thing, but rubbish at the end of the day.

If you can source goats yoghurt, which more stores are stocking these days, that should be good enough.   I can't recomment natural, unflavoured yog. enough    And don't forget, most good brand dog food contains probiotics.

Thanks once again for your replies,was going on vets advice re a retest after a week, have been through campylobacter with one of my previous dogs and it took 8 months to finally get a clear result, we also found that the strain of campy was resistant to all the abs she had been given, we eventually used the Yudigest, which helped her a lot...will defo look into the probiotic health one though, anything to help him he doesn't need this, never had a puppy with it, in all the years ive had dogs, but guess that's life...

for MamaBas...I have a border terrier speyed bitch she is 11 and sounds just like your lad perfect stools then rubbish as the day goes on..How much yoghurt would you recommend to give her ?? she weighs 10.3 kilo's ..Do you mix in with food or give on its own before food ..once a day ??

I just give a teaspoonful on or mixed into the food, both meals.   Mine will lick it off a spoon but that's messy!   I don't think weight matters - my Basset is around 35 kg with my Whippet 15 kg. and I still don't give either much over a teaspoonful.

I'd maybe do what I did when despite neg. fecals, he was still doing this - after a tray of Hills I/d which cleared up what he was doing (not with yoghurt!) and then going to a home-made coley/mashed potato diet, I put him onto Arden Grange Sensitive, which is also fish and potato.   Very rarely has he looked back - only if I tried him on something slightly cheaper (still AG) and when the both picked up a nasty bug locally.

ok thank you for your help ..I will try that xx

Back to very soft poos....:( could it also be a side effect from the Abs.?? just at a loss now....

Are you still using the ABs?  Have they stopped? 

What dosage of metronidazole is your dog on, and what does s/he weigh?  The recommended dosages for it vary hugely and sometimes vets don't prescribe strong enough doses as they are worried about side effects... meaning it's then ineffective (experienced that with our dog once).

He is 16.1kg and on 400 mg  one tablet twice a day got another week to go on them .

I think that should be enough.  My dog was 22kg and, the first time, she had 400mg twice a day, for 10 days. 

A (new and crap!) vet next time it happened, prescribed 200mg twice a day for 10 days - and this didn't work.  We returned to our usual vet who upped the dose to 500mg twice a day for 10 days.  Which worked.

And we stuck to 500mg twice a day, from then on.  We did have one time when the meds worked, then it came back again when we stopped.  We repeated another course for longer - I think 14 days - and it stayed away that time. 

Giardia can be a b**ger to fix and get rid of, sometimes.  Have a read of this article on it, from an experienced beagle breeder:  https://www.beaglesunlimited.com/health/giardiasis-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention  

Are you also giving probiotics in between the doses of metronidazole?  I'd definitely recommend that.  Use FortiFlora (enterrococcus faecium) plus one like this:  http://amzn.eu/jey0YEx  which has:  L.Acidophilus, E.Faecium, L. Rhamnosus, L. Plantarum, B. Bifidum, B. Longum, B. Breve, L. Casei, B. Coagulans, B. Lactis, S. Thermophilus, L. Fermentum  Research shows that variety is the way to approach probiotics in the gut.  Give in between doses of ABs (to help the ABs not kill the probiotics). 

You could also try some kaolin to help bind things.  Whilst you can buy expensive kaolin pastes, I like to have a tub of this - much more economical and lasts for ages:  http://amzn.eu/bQNHkTO

Thanks for your reply, yes the vet said something about hitting it from all sides, hence the 14 days treatment period, Im currently using Lintbells Yudigest, have used it before on a previous dog when she had Campy, it was the only thing to kill it, as we found out the strain she had was immune to all antybs, I ended up giving it her for the rest of her life...

Also weaning him off Simpsons, and onto chappie, a breeder friend of mine recommended it, id never given it much thought as its always getting bad press as a bad food, but she swears by it, and always has some in for sloppy poo moments, he seems a bit calmer to day also..

So just got to keep going until Friday when we finish the anybs and wait...then sample in again for the next round, I feel really bad for a young pup of 18 weeks having to go through this, even the breeder gave him 2 separate doses of Panacur so where hes got it from I don't know. 
Thanks for your advice much appreciated...

> <br />Also weaning him off Simpsons, and onto chappie, a breeder friend of mine recommended it, id never given it much thought as its always getting bad press as a bad food, but she swears by it, and always has some in for sloppy poo moments, he seems a bit calmer to day also..

Just be aware that although we always have tinned Chappie in the cupboard as it's generally easily digested and helps with uncomplicated digestive disorders, it's NOT complete, much as the tin says it is.   I've not used the dry Chappie however.

As said, when a vet from the sister Practice was on duty on one occasion when I was still having problems with Frankie, he suggested he had Hills I/D - and prescribed a dozen tins.   The improvement was virtually immediate and thankfully, he liked it (some dogs don't) and tucked into it.    It's hard on a puppy of only 4+ months, but that was the same age as Frankie was when he came to us, with this wretched protozoa.   His ongoing firm first thing, nasty by the end of the day, went on for a number of weeks, even after he was producing clear fecal tests.   I can't tell you how relieved we were not to have to constantly keep checking what he'd left outside.

By the way, we used Jeyes Fluid to wash the areas he'd poohed on - didn't do much for the grass, but at least it kept down the risk of reinfection.   And as said, Panacur didn't touch the Giardia Frankie had.   I KNOW he didn't pick this up from here - it was a February when he came to us and the ground was frozen, with NO water lying around outside.    I had his companion tested and she was clear and I had no reason to suspect she had these in any case.  Her stools were always great.

http://www.petsandparasites.org/dog-owners/giardia-in-dogs/

Thanks we too have the Jeyes fluid,and really don't care about the grass at the moment, also have hills ID used to have to use it for my sadly missed old girl,she had bouts of pancreatitis and was on the low fat Id was all she could tolerate..just thought that with the AB on board we would start to see some difference but as the days have gone on its getting worse, this is why I thought it could be a combination of food and the AB...if it had been Campy, I dealt with that but this Guirdia, is a little B*****….

Chappie is one of those which is oft-recommended as being a good one to try during times of digestive upset.  I think it's a bit of an old wive's tail however - there is nothing magical about the ingredients, in fact they are pretty poor quality, with added BHA and BHT and carcinogenic preservatives.  It's a cheapo tinned food and you get what you pay for. 

If you are going to switch the food, best to switch to as plain a wet food as you can, making sure it is high quality and has no additives or preservatives - chicken and rice or fish and rice Nature Diet would get my bet.

YuDigest has enterrococcus faecium and kaolin in it, so it could theoretically replace the FortiFlora and the kaolin liquid - but it doesn't have all those other beneficial probiotics listed, so would definitely be worth adding that in as well.  When it comes to the microbiome, it's all about diversity and over-populating with good bacteria to leave an inhospitable environment for the bad.

Thanks you know I opened the tin of chappie last night and thought it looked awful, smelt like kit e kat, so ended up boiling some white fish for him, which went in seconds, in himself he is a usual puppy, will order some of the probiotic your recommended, so much to learn some folk say this others say that, but just want to help my boy and get rid of this bug...

Thanks everyone for your advice, much appreciated...

> I opened the tin of chappie last night and thought it looked awful, smelt like kit e kat

It really doesn't matter what YOU thought about the look and smell of tinned Chappie, does it?   Fact is dogs, in general, love it because it does smell fishy.   We always kept some in the Boarding Kennel where I worked as if everything else failed, it would ALWAYS get reluctant eaters to start eating again.    You open a can of Butchers Tripe mix and it doesn't smell appealing!!   Just a caution - once you feed a dog human food, he's less likely to tuck into dog food

I give my Basset half a can of Chappie last thing - it's stopped him upchucking bile in the early hours, and he inhales it!!

As for a probiotic - instead of paying a load for this, USE NATURAL YOGURT .... and goats Yogh. if you can source it which is more likely these days.

Stomach acid in dogs means that yoghurt is ineffective.  And many dogs can't digest lactose and will get loose stools if given cow's yoghurt in particular.

Original.chappie tinned is a weird one . It shouldn't but often sooths sore  tummies and dogs love it . Short term I wouldn't worry about not being the besr much as  cooked chicken or cooked white fish is good and isn't complete

goldenhound - I'm an occasional tinned Chappie user.  Yes it smells disgusting but so do a lot of dog foods.

In my experience it really can help in firming up the poo and seems to have a calming effect on a variety of digestive troubles.  I always have a couple of tins in my emergency cupboard. 

At one point it made a huge difference to one of my Flatcoats who was having dreadful gastric problems.  It was the only thing which worked for a while.  He was later diagnosed with pancreatitis and we moved on to other treatments/food.  But short term the Chappie helped enormously.

But of course different things suit different digestive systems.

Hope your pup is improving and will soon  be fully recovered.

> And many dogs can't digest lactose

..... which is why I suggested that if you, OP, can source GOATS YOGURT, so much the better.    Fact is, and I've proven this over many many years, yogurt can and does help clear up UNCOMPLICATED DIGESTIVE UPSETS.

Isn't this a place to share experiences, like what has worked for us?   Doesn't mean because what's suggested hasn't worked for others, that the suggestion IS WRONG. 

MamaBas, I'm not sure why you're shouting? 

You said 'As for a probiotic - instead of paying a load for this, USE NATURAL YOGURT ' - so, yes, it was necessary to point out that these are not interchangeable and that cow's milk is hard to digest for many dogs due to the lactose.

It might be your experience that yoghurt helps, sadly it hasn't been my experience - equally over 'many many years'.

>Isn't this a place to share experiences, like what has worked for us?

Isn't this a place to share experiences, like what HASN'T worked for us? 

> Doesn't mean because what's suggested hasn't worked for others, that the suggestion IS WRONG.

Doesn't mean because what's suggested HAS worked for others, that the suggestion is RIGHT    I'm sorry you prefer yoghurt or whatever, but please don't have a hissy fit and shout in caps just because we have different experiences.

Sorry you're so threatened by someone else's opinion that you find it hard to allow our two experiences to co-exist so the OP can decide for themselves what they would like to do. 

Anyone got rid of Guardia and then it came back again a few months later..? its back after having 2 clear results, and the third samples sent in and it has returned...

Yes one of mine had it twice, he was quite old and the second time was 2/3 weeks after the course of antibiotics.  He also showed clear. I phoned the Vet and he advised to just leave it rather than treat again and it did clear in a few days and never came back.  I did put him on a simple recovery food until everything went back to normal.

Very common.  I've already given you the link to read about giardiasis, in a previous post, which describes the exact problems of running tests for it:  https://www.beaglesunlimited.com/health/giardiasis-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

Updated situation we have now had tests returned and now clear....but....we still have a good poo in
the morning but others are still very sloppy, am beginning to think the test results were wrong.? He is now on Purina hypoallergenic food which was recommended to me from a friend who’s flattie had been through what we have and suited him.

Don’t want to do raw, as with his history of campy as well as guirdia anyone give me any advice on a good food please, ?

Thanks in advance.

If its all clear could it be the protein isn't suiting him.
So maybe try a kibble which has no chicken or derivatives of chicken in it. So lamb or fish based.
Or could be a grain issue so try looking at a grain free kibble

> with his history of campy as well as guirdia anyone give me any advice on a good food please, ?<br />

I'm not sure if I've written all this before, but when we were trying to stablise Frankie's stool situation, we were (finally, from a vet visiting from the sister Practice of the one I was using at the time) advised to make up a fish and potato food, after he finished a tray of Hills I/D, which I did and the improvement was almost instant.  I then moved him onto a commercially made fish and potato diet..... Arden Grange's Sensitive.   He was on that for years until I inadvertently ordered 2 bags (special offer via Zooplus) of AG Rice and Salmon.   Although he'd reacted when I'd tried other food before, this time there was no deterioration so he's now on that, and has been for some months now.   All good, and it's cheaper than AG Sensitive too.

Unfortunately what suits one dog, may not suit another.  I would also say that some dogs do produce a 'bad' stool later in the day, or even if there's a second BM during a walk, without there necessarily being an internal parasite.

ps   If I use caps. it's because I'm trying to emphasise a point.

Many thanks ladies for your replies I know there is a wealth of experience on this forum so any advice given much appreciated to date we have had the hills I’d, tried lamb,fish and rice, salmon and rice, Arden grange sensitive,lamb and potato food, and now on a Purina hydrolysed protein diet ,vet doesn’t seem to bothered as he said it’s a puppy thing and as he gets older he will fight off the bugs and get better, but as we all know vets don’t live with it, we have had clear results but the soft diarreah poos are still coming, so I’m now thinking maybe possible allergy...we also have the problems of blocked anal glands due to soft poos, hey ho
ever ending...☹️

After my Golden had had weeks of semi liquid or cow pat poos my vet (who has always been brilliant) told me not to waste my money on poo samples but to put him on Wafcol salmon and potato.  Within two days his poos were normal. He has now been on it for over 9 months with not one single sloppy poo.

Im possibly thinking that by doing an elimination diet would be your best option. Maybe do a grain free diet to start with, plenty of options out there. Give it at least 4 weeks before you make any changes as you will know if its grain by then, dont switch sooner.
If not grain then chicken is the most common protein which dogs arw allergic to, so no meats, liquids etc in it, most of Arden Grange range have some form of chicken in them if you read the ingredients. The wafcol or fish4dogs would be worth considering on no chicken diet

> most of Arden Grange range have some form of chicken in them if you read the ingredients.

After doing a quick check ...... their menues contain 'Chicken digest' (what's that) and Refined Chicken oil.    So IF there's an allergic reaction to chicken, that would rule out any of their products.    I was looking at Wolf of Wilderness (because Zooplus have an offer on) and their various varieties, Duck, Fish and so on, ALL contain chicken.   I'd bet most will!!   However, the various 'fish4' food don't although I really can't do their food because of the cost.   And I do have a choice!!    I use Fish4 treats, but even that I have found cheaper via another outlet down here in Cornwall now (online).

Milly's wolf heart do a chicken free and grain free . I think Eden do as well .Eden is also cold pressed which if u fees kibble is considered better.other one to check is Akela for same reasons

Thanks everyone for your thoughts he is allergic to chicken and turkey, we have even had kangaroo...have ordered some wafcol.

so here’s hoping, poo samples doing again and will be dropped off tomorrow for the next instalment...thanks once again..

>Don’t want to do raw, as with his history of campy as well as guirdia anyone give me any advice on a good food please, ?

Research actually shows that dog fed raw have a higher number of GOOD bacteria in their guts, far more able to fight off the bad bacteria:  https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-017-0981-z

Switching to raw will enable his microbiome to become stronger and better able to be resistant to disease including giardia. 

It is very normal, though, for the first poop of the day to be firmer than the others - all my dogs are the same.  The first stool has had longer for water to be absorbed from it than subsequent stools.  However subsequent stools should not be runny or unpick upable.

Just to add both my hounds now produce stools of the same consistency from start to end of the day.   And I'd not expect it to be otherwise.

Plus - Fish4 currently have a 10% off EVERYTHING sale going on - they have just emailed me.   If anybody wants to take advantage of this offer which lasts to the middle of the month.

They did tell me what chicken digest was but i can't recall. I need to call them in a bit so will ask

> They did tell me what chicken digest was but i can't recall.

http://www.best-dog-food-review.com/67901/145601.html

Thanks once again folks have ordered some Wafcol salmon and pot awaiting to come, have been recently talking to a friend whos 7 month old lab has too had Guardia, her vet just said to increase fibre in his diet and it will poo out the Guirdia. ??? anyone heard of this at all. ??

Was looking at the fish4dogs, hes 9 month now so was wondering puppy or adult.?? something for the future if Wafcol doesn't suit.??

I think I'd go for Adult now.

And so it returns....can anyone please give me the name of the disinfectant that kills guirdia, Im sure I read about it somewhere but cant remember where...

We have it again, and now on Hills Wd which is firming up the poos, but after several rounds of Antybs, and panacur it keeps returning, our vet says that the area we live in is at the moment rife in both Guirdia and  Campy...

I would just be really cautious about bombarding him with antibiotics recurrently.  It is a case of diminishing returns.  Every time you use them, you are nuking the 'good' microbiome.  A microbiome is like a forest, or an ecosystem, with diverse flora and fauna - in optimal health, all operates in a balance and no particular strain gets out of control.  The good bacteria keep the bad bacteria in check.  When things go wrong, and you use ABs, you nuke everything - good and bad.  There is then nothing to keep the bad bacteria in check and they will proliferate again. 

This is why, regardless of what area you live in, not every dog in a giardia hot spot - or even most dogs - will have runny stools.  In addition, many dogs with perfect stools, will test positive for giardia - since a huge number of dogs are carriers without evidence of disease.  Why?  Because their microbiome prevents the giardia from taking over. 

Boosting the natural immune system and the gut's own defences is key to any gastro issue and recurrent rounds of ABs is the opposite of that.  Feeding a raw and natural diet, rich in GOOD bacteria, will replenish the gut and help the microbiome re-establish itself.  Not expensive carb-heavy prescription foods... (regardless of immediate results)

There is no disinfectant I can recommend that is effective against giardia cysts - only bleach is, and bleach should be used with extreme caution around dogs for obvious reasons.  You also cannot disinfect (with bleach or anything) dirt or ground or grass - only solid surfaces like tarmac or concrete.

My vet suggests this for Giardia