Hi everyone, i would be very grateful for advice. i have two rescue bitches, 5 and 6 years old, who are not getting on well. I got them when they were still puppies at around 8-10 months old. The youngest, middle size, spaniel cross, is the dominant one, and has shown her character from the very first days in the house. They rarely fought and when they did it was over bones. I started noticing though that the eldest and smaller would not come to bed with me if the younger was already there unless i reassured her. Yet they slept and ate well together, and can be affectionate and playful to one another. I reckon that something must have happened in my absence however. So not just food related but a matter of hierarchy.
Things escalated when a friend's male dog have come to spend some time with us recently. My two had an awful fight about a bone yesterday. The smaller/eldest one was lightly injured and seem to be left traumatised by the experience. Also when she cried (because i tried to remove her harness or touched her as she must be in pain) the youguest growled at her. It happen twice since the fight yesterday. Also no interaction at all betwen them when i took them for a walk this morning. Yet they behaved well.
I am taking the eldest to the vet tomorrow to double check tgat she is ok and seek advice on what to do. So far, the guest dog and my friend were asked to leave. Also i will be very careful when giving them treats from now on (before they were able to have their treats in peace, unless the youngest did not eat hers but kept an eye on it, still fights very rarely happened). No option about giving them up. They are rescue dogs and would be broken heart if i did. Me too.
Any advice would be very appreciated please. Tia. X

I would say get a vet check on both of them, full check, bloods, eyesight, hearing and pain etc.
Get yourself a good force free behaviourist, try apbc as an example.

Baby gates, get them up and keep them seperated when no one is at home to monitor them. Crates also could be utilised.
Have either of them been spayed? Was the dog who stayed castrated? Also did he seem to prefer one of your girls over another?
Lots of other questions but they are the main ones. 

But safety of both your girls is paramount so do what you can for the time being. Bones and feeding apart.
If they are fine on walks then keep that up. But leaving them alone unattended for me wouldn't be an option as even the slightest thing could set one or both off and no one there to stop it. Last thing is for this to escalate any further

Good advise from suejaw. I would also only give treats when they are separated. It's sounds like there may also be some resource guarding going on and treats are part of it as well as the food and bone. Unless your vet is a behaviourist becareful of any advice given .apdt is another body who have good force free trainers

Hi Suejaw, thanks for your reply.
After the bad morning walk i kept them separated for a while. The bad vibe seems to have improved however after my friend and his dog went out for the day (they are still out). So much so that my two ended up in the same room - as they wished. We also went for a walk not long ago and they did not mind getting into the car together, sitting beside one another, and the walk was uneventful. Actually, the dominant/younger wanted to play with the eldest as if nothing had happened but i kept them on their leads and tried to divert their attention to another dog passing by. Not sure it was a coincidence that there was a third dog around when the play mood started. After coming back home they had their meals side by side as usual. Once again no problems. They ate, as they do, with the two female cats who are quite submissive. Not sure it's an important info - i just tried to make it as normal as possible. We are now in the bedroom together and in peace. The dominant/younger in bed and the injured one next to the radiator as she likes.
More feedback: they are both spayed and male dog is not castrated. The dominant bitch is more playful with the male dog and it's generally more friendly with other dogs by nature, while the other one tends to be more quiet. Both do get on v well with the male dog and are v sassy (but not agressive with one another) when around him.  I am almost convinced that the male dog is the problem.
I am considering a dog behaviouralist to prevent any conflicts in the future. Many thanks for your advice.

You have, unwittingly, undoubtedly altered the perameters by having another dog in the house.    The trouble is when bitches fight, there is all too often no way back.   Males fight to mate.   Bitches fight to survive and as you have said the younger one is the more dominant you probably can't rule out her sensing that something is going on with the older bitch - so taking her to the vet is a good idea.  The younger one may be pushing her status.

If you have to give them bones as treats, have them completely separated until they have either finished the bones, or moved away from them.   Pick up what's left.  Or don't do bones any more.  Feed them completely separated - in separate rooms, and don't let them back together until you have picked up the bowls.   This is about prevention/avoidance.   And sad to say, as this didn't start until the male came in, I think you have to stop allowing this although unfortunately, now this has happened the once, you may find the smallest things sets this off again - soooo, for now, don't leave them together unattended.

I hope this isn't the end for these two, I really do but you must be one step ahead now this has started, or it will be impossible to have them together now.

When you write that one bitch is "dominant"what is your understanding of "dominant"  ? Truly dominant dogs/bitches rarely have to do anything perceivable to humans to "dominate" other dogs. They certainly rarely do anything physical & in truth "dominant" dogs/bitches are extremely rare.

Worth considering your comment that they rarely fought and if they did it was over bones. Be very careful now this happened as they did show that they had the potential to guard high value items previously and before the presence of the male

Dear all,
Many thanks for your thoughtful input. Apologies for taking so long to get back with some feedback. I was waiting to see the vet today so i could provide you with more information as well as replying to your questions carefully. Even though i have appreciated very much what has been said i needed to see a professional who is also v experienced and know my pets quite well. Also i think many could benefit from her advice. So i will start with her feedback - we did spend a good 1/2 hour talking so there is quite a lot to say. Here we go.

According to the vet, the differential and most likely reason for conflict is the male dog who, to make matters worse, is not castrated. She also suggested that the best approach after a fight is to keep the two bitches apart until they calm down. Yet they should not be prevented from interacting, if they wish so as long as it happens under close supervision. The vet has insisted that they should resume their routine of being together, as they always did and in peace, so that becomes the norm again. Apart from that, and as many suggested here, the catalyst is the bone (or dental treats). They should be given them separately from now on to be on the safe side. Another very important thing is that i must remind them that i am the boss. This can be shown by looking into their eyes and firmly saying key words such as 'no'. Vet also stated that i should express anger (by raising my voice, for example) when they misbehave. She said that as i know them, they also know me, and are therefore aware when i am unhappy because my body language and voice. I found interesting her statement that in nature a mother would turn angry if her puppies misbehaved. And the worse their behaviour the angrier the mother would be! She made clear it does not mean hiting them, of course, but being rough, like by pushing them, can be considered as ok and it would show them that i am the boss as they would expect from their mother. Ignoring a pet who misbehave for a few hours after an incident is also very important. In addition, she said there will always be a hierarchy, it's part of any pack environment. It's how they deal with it (ie, if they are peaceful or not) that matters. Finally, food for a rescue dog is the most important thing as they were used to compete for it in the shelter prior to coming to live with me. So its potenyial scarcity will never leave their minds, besides being an instintive issue. It's how i handle it that should be of concern. To be honest i don't think that i, as a pet owner, have behaved too badly if i may say. I described to her all that have happened in detail.

I am in no doubt about who is the dominant one as i watch my pets' interaction - it is also a pleasure for me. But if anyone has any doubts, i once saw the younger one pinning down the 2 yo cat on the bed where i was too. At that time, intinctively, i pushed her away gently (to make sure that she would not harm the cat) and grabbed it. Shortly afterwards, I shouted and told her repeatedly 'no'. It has never happened again. What did happen afterwards in other occasions and same setting is that she looked at me as if she was seeking perhaps a confirmation or denial about what is allowed. I gently told her that the cat is a friend, while stroking it, but staring into her eyes. In these occasions, rather than asserting myself i was actually watching her just in case. The unintended result however is that i was showing her that i was the boss, as the vet suggested.  She no longer does that but i still watch her when the cat comes to bed for a snuggle up just to make sure that she understandS that no one is above me. Only God knows what happens when i am not around, of course, but i suppose that no cat will come to bed when i am not in and i am not too bothered about the fact that she would come second in the hierarchy as long as no harm is done to one another. Vet thinks that any major confrontation would happen in front of me, not on my back, as the bitch has already asserted herself as coming second. So far they have been unharmed when left on their own. As said above, one cannot supress hierarchy, it's whether it's peaceful or not that matters.

From now on, i will be extrenely careful when giving them treats . The eldest/smaller almost gobbles them (as she fears losing it to the younger, as i understand), while the dominant puts it on the floor and watches it. Vet said it is her way to constantly test her superior position in the pack. She advised from now on to put the treat away if she does not start eating it for two obvious reasons: to prevent conflict and to discourage her from using food to assert herself in front of me. Once again, as vet said, i am the one who should make rules and that i should never miss the opportunity to remind them of it if i want to keep their lives safe. Fingers crossed i will.

Good news: The friend and his dog have gone.  I don't mind visitors and their pets, as my girls enjoy their company too, but the guest stayed for far too long (10 days).

Once again many thanks for your input. Hope to have clarify your queries and being helpful to anyone who have faced or may one day have similar problems. Take care and best wishes. X

PS: English is not my mother tongue so i hope to have been understood well. Any doubts pls let me know. Thx.

Sounds as if you have a sensible vet, bearing in mind not all vets actually HAVE a dog!!  I'd agree, and have already written as much, that the thing that started all this was having another dog in there, male and entire or not.   Threesomes can be difficult.  Hopefully Junior Madam will refrain from her activities.  I'm assuming the older one checked out ok and this behaviour wasn't about the younger one sensing some decline in your older bitch?

Again when it comes to 'dominance' - YOU are the boss and it should be morel than clear to this younger bitch that this is the case - she who should be obeyed.

And AVOID/PREVENT any situation that could set off this fighting.

Sorry but you are not the "BOSS". You are NOT the pack leader. Your dogs know you are not a dog & as dogs are NOT pack animals you do not have to show you are "in charge".

You haven't answered my question about how you KNOW one of your bitches is dominant. Truly dominant dogs rarely if ever resort to physical action, their actions & body language sre extremely subtle. Is your vet a qualified behaviourist ? Is the trainer who knows your dog a qualified behaviourist ?

Bitches do not get angry with their puppies & lead by example rather punishment. If their puppies outside of the puppy license period overstep the mark, they do not get angry, because dogs do not have human emotions like anger. They move away if puppies behaviour becones too much & generally ignore, showing the puppy what isn't rewarding

I would not listen to this vet AT ALL, sounds like they are using very outdated and potentially dangerous training methods. Tommee is right, bitches never punish their pups by anything but body language. Unfortunately once bitches start fighting there's usually no way to safely let them be together again. Dynamics change with age as well.

'Dynamics change with age'

I've had bitches that could have killed each other given half a chance but who became loving friends in old age. It was always a gradual process but my enduring memory will be of coming down one morning to find 15year old Zigi to have had a ' stroke' during the night and clearly dying with Clemmie, once loathed enemy, cuddled beside her.

> I would not listen to this vet AT ALL, sounds like they are using very outdated and potentially dangerous training methods. Tommee is right, bitches never punish their pups by anything but body language. Unfortunately once bitches start fighting there's usually no way to safely let them be together again. Dynamics change with age as well.

The only thing I'd agree with here is the comment about bitches fighting.   Sadly.   Otherwise I had a bitch, who, with her second litter, became very rough with her puppies, not wanting them crawling anywhere near her head and she would snap.   I don't know why because she wasn't like that with her first litter.  Needless to say I had to keep a close watch when they were nursing and she was in with them, and that was her last litter.

Again I think OPs vet was sensible, if she advised as described, and certainly wasn't suggesting 'potentially dangerous training methods'.

Mamabas, the OP's vet told them they had to show their dogs they are the boss, and to be rough with them and push them. If that's not dangerous advice I don't know what is.....

Also what's with the staring in their eyes ? More crocodile Dundee than dog training ?

> Also what's with the staring in their eyes ?

Well forgive me (for breathing) but I get eye contact with my two if I want to make sure they understand what I am after.    However I do not push and shove    I must have missed that bit in the long post...............

Hey ho - but what works with some dogs, may NOT work with another.

Unless I misunderstood I see staring at your dog differently to makeing eye contact
.yes agree getting eye contact can be really useful especially if u are trying to remove them from a situation and yes I do it to but don't then continueto stare at her to show i am boss..

The mention staring worried me too. When stress levels are running high it is far too easy for a hard stare to be interpreted as provocation by the dog, with the potential for the aggression to be redirected towards the owner. I would prefer to follow the advice of a qualified behaviourist to that of a vet for situations like this one.

Maybe it's just semantics one man's staring is another's eye contact and or watch command . Not wanting to fall out mamab

Getting eye contact with a dog should be the dog looking at you & being rewarded, not you staring at a dog which is a threatening behaviour to the dog.

"Humans view eye contact as a polite way to connect and show interest. Dogs, however, see the same action as a sign of dominance. Dogs rarely make prolonged eye contact with other dogs and a straight gaze is generally deemed threatening behavior. In most cases, one dog will break eye contact with another to avoid a potential fight. In the same way, a dog you’ve locked in a stare may show submissive behavior, such as looking away or rolling over onto his back. Some dogs, however, react aggressively to the perceived challenge, backing up and barking or even biting in response. Rather than unwittingly threaten a dog you’ve just met, then, greet him in a way that is comfortable for both parties."

Thank u that's what I was meaning tommee

Never forget we all have different breeds ......... so 'staring' at my hounds would not be confrontational with MY hounds and I'm taking staring as = eye contact.     Of course I'd NEVER stare at a strange dog.   I'm not that daft

Sometimes things get 'lost in translation' when using a forum with the written word.   It would make for far less misunderstanding if we could all talk face to face.   Probably

Something else occured to me .the oP although writing excellent English says it is not her first language so there maybe some things lost in translation and the words not exactly as we would necessarily explain something .no criticism meant to the op at all I only speak and write English and even that at times doesn't flow in the way I think or type :)

Staring at any animal and human can be intimidating whilst gazing into their eyes is completely different - suggesting love and trust.

I got the impression that the vet was suggesting using staring as an intimidatory practice, especially when coupled with the advice to be rough and push her and be dominant.

Mamabas, having read your posts over many years, I'm absolutely certain your gaze is a loving one even when giving a 'dont do that!' look

> Mamabas, having read your posts over many years, I'm absolutely certain your gaze is a loving one even when giving a 'dont do that!' look

Here i am again.
ME:
English is not my mother tongue so beware how i express myself. But this is not just about English  language. So when i say about looking into my dogs eyes, it can be about staring, confronting, gazing, etc etc, depending on the situation. Important to say however that, right or wrong (?) my dogs DO seek my eye contact quite often when i approach them and vice-versa. They can't talk so we do communivate a lot through our eyes. Sometimes i shout (v rarely) if a dangerous situation arises. Important to say: that is the way i am. It's not going to change in essence, even though i can change bits to improve their lives and mine, of course. I know they know i am a human, not a dog. So i suppose allowances are given and taken on both sides within limits of being a dog or a human.

SETTING: I live on my own with them, they have no one to turn to, in a house and garden with plenty space for them and me. I work from home most of the time but i do stop working quite often (love breaks) for cuddles and some non sense bable with them. They do the same if they feel like. I am there for them. It's not just that we are together for a long time - i enjoy watching them and the way they interact with one another. So it's quite intense. I believe that this gives me a good insight into their behaviour, individually and when with one another.
Things went back to what they used to be, that is, peaceful, after the male dog left. I am now v careful about treats - the trigger for fights. So far only 3 disagreements in 5 years, and only once things got out of hand.  When i used to give them treats S (the youngest) did not eat hers but kept it in a strategic place, a pathway, so no one (the other dog or cats) could pass by or get closer to it. She was guarding it. The eldest, B, eats hers quickly. Nowadays, if the yougest (S) does not eat hers i withdraw it from her. I did it once, withdrawing 3x from her in one afternoon and S did understand that she was not going to "play games" (?)  with her treat if she did not eat it straight way. There are bones and treats hidden in the garden from the past. I do understand it's a dogs behaviour but i cannot risk conflict anymore so now i will "guard" it for S. her. She is a highly inteligent dog and learns tricks v quickly (compared to B). Another thing that worried me was S (perceived) agressive behaviour in two other occasions after the fight when B moaned in pain. Once in bed when i stroke B on the neck, and the next day morning when i tried to take off B's harness after a walk and she moaned a bit. Why??? B was weakened. And there was no bone/treat involved. Later on it was all back to normal. That is, S tried to play with B in the park as if nothing had happened. I prevented it from hapenning because B was bruised and kept them both on their leads. So far things are back to normal and improved massively after the dog left. S loved him. B too but she did avoid him if S was around playing with him. In essence, S appears to be much more assertive than B - perhaps a more accurate description than calling S as dominant? So to the best of my understanding, the male dog and my handling of the treat seemed to have trigered the conflict. But what about S's subsequent growling?

VET
She has never suggested any training, as some claimed (i have never said that). the vet is not a qualified dog behaviourist. A vet is just a vet, some better than others. She was my port of call because B was bruised. This vet is an independent one - not part of a chain. I am well aware that many are no more than money makers. Theirs is not. She is also v experienced. But i cannot possibly expect her to know anything and everything. If another fight happens i will seek an expert. I am taking my precautions however.

Many thx for your insight.

You still have not explained why you believe you have a "dominant"bitch. What do you base this on ?

Did i use the word dominant on my last post? I prefered to call S assertive. I did take on board what you said. But i think i did mention too that she is larger, younger (and boisterous as a spaniel cross) and therefore stronger than B who is quite shy and undemanding (not v assertive). S had a much better start in life. I have not much knowledge of dogs generally. Only of mine as characters. But would need to have parameters (knowledge and experience of many dogs) to be able to say more. You seem to be the expert, no me.

Things sound like they have calmed down. But from some of your comments there has been signs that one can resource guard and maybe not only over bones and treats before the male arrived .bearing this in mind I would avoid situations that this can happen and should u see a situation that could potentially go the wrong way redirect that dogs attention into something positive
The bed may be one area but it could.be anything . The others cry of pain For example clearly evoked a response you weren't comfortable with . Being alert as much as possible to these potentials will help . ATM u feel u don't need behaviourist input but if things still show odd difficult areas I would find one earlier than later. Also taking them out and training separately will help as each will be getting  individual time .
Learning more about dogs body language so u can be ahead  of the game so to speak is very useful as well .
I have a reactive dog and did have one that resource  guarded over bones they werr never told off ,if things go wrong it's  my fault,
she is directed away from a situation hopefully I am quick enough to avoid even a stiff stance or slight change in body languages  and  then given somethin quick to do that finishes in a treat .if I can preempt she will have a treat then so she associates the other dog / situation with good things. U may be able to adapt but I am sure other more experienced people will advise