My lovely lab had a large first litter of 9 on Thursday - about 4 days before her earliest due date.  Initially all seemed well. She had been wormed and had her usual jabs but not the CHV vaccine as it was not recommended by vet or stud and quite frankly I was unaware of it.

On Friday the smallest pup died and I assumed he was the runt and had half expected a first time mum to struggle to raise 9.

First thing on Saturday they all looked fine but a couple of hours later one pup looked to be floppy and wouldn’t drink. I called my vet who is luckily a great friend and she came round. She was worried by how cold that pup and another felt so we tried to warm them up and get them drinking. The original died but the 2nd seemed to rally. Suddenly though she faded and at the same time the biggest and strongest looked like she was fitting and also died. At this point we obviously realised something was seriously wrong.

My vet mooted CHV but the bitch showed no blisters (which she said would fit with an outbreak caused by whelping) and she said she thought her litter was too large for her to have caught it on mating as this usually gives rise to small or still born litters or no litter at all.  We started the pups on anti biotics and significantly raised the temperature of the whelping box - the virus dies at 38c plus. Sadly another died and she performed a post mortem on all which did suggest CHV due to bruised kidneys and haemorgic (so?) spots on lungs.

I then found an article where a vet in the US treated the pups with aciclovir (human herpes anti viral) so we started them on this.

On Sunday another looked floppy and ultimately died but it was a horrible and more drawn out death.

We are now on Tuesday morning and the last 3 are still here. They are feeding well and move around a lot. However they don’t like the heat and move apart tomseek our colder spots which worries me. Mum also hates the heat and doesn’t want to stay in the box with them as much as she should - I assume due to heat as she pants on there so I turn off the heat pads when she is with them.  However she also seems very down and it is getting harder to encourage her to stay with them despite me being here the whole time.

Does anyone have any advice. In particular is there a deadline by which we can hope that if they make it that far they have a good chance?

I also note the earlier post on serum. Presumably mum is no good as my vet thinks she has unluckily contracted the CHV in last 2-3 weeks of her pregnancy hence no antibodies for the pups and may have given rise to a slightly early delivery.

Finally any advice to renew mum’s interest - especially as and when we can decrease the temperature?

Thanks

You'll get good advice here soon I hope - in the meantime keep the pups VERY warm, apparently the virus doesn't like the heat. 

Wishing you the best of luck with your babies

https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/canine-herpes-virus#1

I pulled up this article, but there are others and this is an American article.   With particular reference in this article to keeping the entire area in the box warm - apart from the fact chilled puppies won't nurse.    We used a brood lamp which we hung over the box from a guilatine at the back of the box.  To make it less warm for mum, who was obviously closer to the lamp than the puppies, we'd often drape a sheet across the back of the box for her to be under.   I found a brood lamp better as it spread the heat better (and we kept a thermometer on one of the pig rails to check the temperature in the bottom of the box) and it kept the whole area drier early days, before the puppies crawled away from the sleeping end of the box to empty.

Also, for future ref., note keeping the pregnant bitch away from other dogs towards the end of the pregnancy.

I hope you manage to save the remaining puppies - with each day their chances of surviving will improve.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I had read that (and anything else I can find on the subject). My vet has been to visit and is pleased that the puppies seem stronger and have gained weight - like me her biggest concern was Mum giving up because she is too hot. We have decided to get a hot box and move them in if they seem chilled for a few mins in order to encourage her not to leave the box (obviously when she goes to the loo they will have a light on them).

She theorized (but she hasn’t seen this before) that the must have contracted in utero because of the speed after birth the others died. We understand the incubation period is 6-10 days which is why puppies who catch from birth tend to die in days 7-14.

This has put me off another litter EVER but I take the point. I was shamefully unaware of the risks and my vet is just surprised that the bitch hasn’t got it before and got immunity as she is out and about loads and it seems most well socialised adult dogs have (she is nearly 4).

It has been a heartbreaking experience. Any tips for generally encouraging mum to be with them more. She wants me to sit at the edge of the box so I’m basically going with that 24/7 and hopefully if they hold out for longer and get stronger and we can drop the temperature a bit she will allow me to be away from her for short periods.

So distressing for you, can't imagine for one minute what you have and are going through.  I can be of no help at all other than sending you hugs and best wishes for the remaining pups and hoping that you keep positive.

Thank you - positive thoughts are appreciated. At least my darling girl is going to be ok.

This is so awful and I know you must be feeling really helpless.  Please don't beat yourself up about not giving the CHV vaccine - because it is not currently available - even if you wanted to give it, you couldn't (probably) - it's been out of stock since August.  BUT - you should always give it, when it is available.  (I hope those naysayers and doubters can read this thread and now see exactly why....   Yes - most of the time you won't give it and you will be fine - but is it really worth risking this sort of scenario??).

It is KEY to get the temperature of the puppies UP.  The virus cannot reproduce at higher temperatures.  It loves the fact that newborn puppies can't maintain their body temps and that is why it affects them.  (If you get to 3 weeks old, the puppies that survive should be ok - that is the age when the puppies' bodies can maintain their own temperature.  This is also why adult dogs are not affected.) 

You need to make a hot box or incubator.  To do this, get a plastic storage tub with a lid.  Put your heat pad in it (you may need to cut a hole in the side for the cable to come out), and put pups in there CONSTANTLY when they are not nursing on mum.  You can leave the lid off slightly of course.  The pups should come out, nurse, then get put back in the incubator.  It is not about their comfort and what their favourite cosy or 'just right' temperature is, it is about survival and ensuring they LIVE.  So - ignore it if they appear uncomfortably warm.  That's just tough... You may need to give mum a few stuffed toys when the pups are all in their box, so she doesn't miss them - or rotate the pups so that she always has one or two.

You want to get their environmental temperature (in the incubator) to 90 degrees F.  Get a thermometer in there, and keep it that high.  This is the most important thing you can do, to save them.  You will cook the bitch if you keep the pups with her at that temperature, hence the incubator.

Acyclovir (anti-viral med) can also be tried, if that's the one you're giving.  There's not a lot of evidence for it, but you want to throw everything at this that you can.  90% of puppies will die, otherwise.  :(

The other suggestion is:  If you can find a dog with antibodies, you can take some of their blood and use the serum to inject subcutaneously into the puppies - 1-2mls under their skin is fine.  This should give them the antibodies.  Your bitch may not (yet) have made the antibodies, which is why they aren't getting it from her milk or from her.  If you can find a dog which socialises a lot with other dogs, or a dog in your household which has been sneezing or slightly unwell - you can take their blood and send it off to check for CHV antibodies.  If they have them, then you can use that in the pups.  However, you may not be in time with this approach...Talk to your vet friend about this idea.

Thank you so much. You clearly know a lot about it - hopefully because you are a vet or similar and not because you have learnt the hard way ☹️

I am pleased that we seem to be doing what you suggest albeit that we have not tried the serum as we only learnt of this today and my vet is giving this some thought.

We had also just decided to swap to a hot box as we were cooking mum and she was then not keen to be with them and I was worried that if we saved them but she rejected them we weren’t much further forward. Also they were escaping the heat as much as they could - climbing the pig bars to avoid the mat and getting as far away from the lamp as possible. I see that in a plastic box they have nowhere to go.

Do you have any views on whether they were infected in utero given how quickly they died and if so whether a) should try survive we may hope they are out of the woods a bit before 3 weeks as they did not have to wait 6-10 days from catching virus on delivery for it to incubate; and b) whether they may start to get antibodies from Mum earlier as she presumably caught it and incubated virus prior to delivery? Also, I have read that some puppies won’t get it at all. However if they do but survive they may have neurological defects - getting ahead of myself but do you know anything about that?

Thanks again

> <br />You want to get their environmental temperature (in the incubator) to 90 degrees F.

Yikes.   Our litters were kept at around 80F or thereabouts in the base of the box, using a brood lamp.

I seem to remember there was some info. concerning somebody with this in my main breed.   I'll have to search and get back if I find what I'm thinking about.

Thanks - any and all advice appreciated and any stories of survival adored!

You definitely want 90F, to nuke the virus.  Ensure pups stay hydrated - you can give fluids subcutaneously if you need to ensure that, given the high temperatures.

It's impossible to predict how things will go.  Many many people lose all the puppies.  If you go for a period of time without losing any, then chances are you are winning for the remaining puppies.  Yes, there are risks of neurological problems in surviving puppies - but the majority of those that survive are totally fine.

I'm not a vet, I'm an Avidog Associate breeder and we cover all this on the Avidog A-Z course (and more!): avidog.com

Thank you

Here you go on the temp....

"The virus is temperature sensitive and prefers to replicate at temperatures less than 37°C..."  (98.6F)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/canine-herpesvirus

Thank you - I had not come across that one.

> <br />"The virus is temperature sensitive and prefers to replicate at temperatures less than 37°C..."  (98.6F)<br />

So I guess the puppies either succumb to the virus, or the heat!!   I hate to disagree (really!) but 98.6F...... ??    So that means the puppies have to be kept at temps. HIGHER than that to kill off the virus.   Bearing in mind that norm for dogs is 101F

Op - I do hope you manage to keep the last 3 going.

MamaBas, even keeping the temperature high is a last shot - as they say - you can't kill a dead puppy.  So have to throw everything at it. 

I'm not sure the article is recommending keeping the puppies at that temperature, it just says that the virus can't replicate at that temp.  The temp I gave above is what's recommended for the incubator (a bit cooler).  I don't know how that fits with the temp the virus can replicate at.

How are the puppies?  Are they still hanging in there?

Hi
So far so good. They are feeding well, gaining weight, moving around more and sleeping lots.  Normal puppy stuff I guess.

I had kept them in a small whelping box to preserve heat but it was too small and too hot for mum so tonight I bit the bullet and put them in a big whelping box. Fingers crossed all goes ok. The temperature is cooler but they still generally sleep quite spread out so I presume they are still warm.

Thanks for thinking of them.

Facebook Replies:

Wendy Mc Quillan says: Only what others have said to keep puppies very hot as this is supposed to help kill the virus , everything crossed for remaining puppies

Sue Harris says:  This seems to be a good LINK

Gillian Roden says:  80%plus till at least 4 weeks old

Hi
Just wanted to update in case anyone is interested. The puppies are now 3 weeks and 2 days and I am moving them out of the bedroom to the living room today.
They are very cute (of course) and seem to be doing well.
Thanks for all the advice.

Now they have made it to an age where they can regulate their own body temperature the danger should be past, but just make sure they don't get too cold if we have a very cold night over next week or so.

Just in case anyone is interested, the surviving 3 are now 6 weeks old and causing complete mayhem!

We are always interested it's lovely to have updates especially good ones