Hi All
Hope someone can help

26th October I noticed was swollen but not bleeding, wanted to be sure hadn't missed, tested and came back as 0.51nmol/l.

My maden bitch was showing signs she was ready to mate on Monday evening, my friend owns the stud dog so I collected him and brought him home. Introduced dog's and he was straight on her and tied for 15+minutes. Next morning I got her progestrone tested and it was 7.45 nmol/l.
24 hours later (tuesday) I introduced them again and he had a sniff and jumped on her back but got straight off without humping her.
Left it be last night, tonight have re introduced again, had a sniff and chartered his jaw when sniffing her but hasn't tried to mount her.
I'm so confused, shouldn't he still be wanting to mate her??
My thoughts are
We have missed it and only gonna get the one tie
Or
He is quite a sex crazy boy normally,  did he just jump on her and mate even though she wasn't ready but now isn't interested and will become more interested in the next few days??? I plan to get her re tested tmrw morning

These are the levels Idexx use when giving advice about the timing of the mating, based on those it looks as though it was too soon.

<3.0 nmol/l – re-sample in 3 to 4 days
3.0 to 8.0 nmol/l – re-sample in 2 days
9.0 to 15 nmol/l - mate in 2 to 3 days
15.0 to 30.0 nmol/l -  mate in 24 to 48 hrs

>30.0 nmol/l  - mate asap
>60.0 nmol/l  -may be too late

From one who has never tested....
You have had a tie (don't need a tie to produce a litter) & you have tried twice & the male wasn't interested, I would say listen to the male.

Sorry I've wrote it wrong, the levels tested are in ng/ ml not nomol/l
So I think if I translate it into nomol/l it's about 23??

** I should add the test results are in ng/ml (nanagrams) not nmol/l but it won't let me edit

> From one who has never tested.... <br />You have had a tie (don't need a tie to produce a litter) & you have tried twice & the male wasn't interested, I would say listen to the male.

   From another who has never tested ..... TOTALLY AGREE.  (Ditto with the no need a tie comment!).   Sometimes the experienced male seems to know he's done the job - maybe even if the bitch still smells interesting and is willing, that smell is slightly different.

So she was mated after she had ovulated. Chances are now she would have gone over if you were looking to try again. Chances are she has taken from the tie you had.

Oh
The vet said that reading meant she hadn't ovulated

In more detail:

0-2 Nmol or 0- 0.6ng   Baseline  

3 - 6 Nmol or 0.9 - 1.8ng minimum two days to ovulation but could persist for up to a week. Minimum estimated breeding 4-6 days

7 -12 Nmol or 2.2 - 3.7ng minimum one day to ovulation. estimated breeding window 3 -5 days

13 - 18 Nmol or 4 - 5.6ng ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2-4days

19 - 31 Nmol or 5.9 - 9.7ng ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1-3 days

32 - 64 Nmol or 10.6 - 20.2ng Ova mature Optimum fertility. Estimated breeding window 0 - 2 days

65 - 90 Nmol or 20.4 - 28.3ng ova mature but ageing, decreased fertility. Breed at once

90Nmol plus or 28.3ng plus - too late

7.45ng is 'ovulation recently occurred'.  Semen lives up to 5 days.  Eggs take 48hrs to mature and be able to be fertilised.

I'd say you have a very good chance from your one mating.  That's if it is ng....

PS It still is a bit weird that he didn't want to mate her again the next day as well, but again I'd say listen to your male...

Today's reading is 29.93 nmol/L
I've clarified with the vet that this one is nmol/L as I've been told ng Ng and nm

So hope we didn't mate her to soon:(

She should still be mate-able at 29.93nmol, put her with the male again and see what happens...

Be sure to give them time to play and court each other before you decide it's not working.  It doesn't always happen immediately.

I would also ask your vet for a copy of the lab reports - my vet emailed them to me, so I saw exactly what the vet saw, from the lab.  I could check what the measurement was in and what the lab's recommendations were etc etc.  These are part of your dog's medical records so you have a right to them...

I'm confused - have all the readings been in nmol then, or just this last one?!

> So hope we didn't mate her to soon

Better too soon than too late as the sperm remains viable for some time - which is why conception may not take on the day of the mating 

Why make this more complicated than it needs to be     Especially with a proven dog.   Breeding dogs is much more likely to result in a litter, than with humans!!  If the bitch is willing and the male keen to mate, and does that should = PUPPIES!!  99.9%

With or without 'matting'.

I've been given the readings in a mixture of Nm and NG
So I've asked them for a copy of it so they are going to sort it :-/
I'm so confused
I've just tried again and he licks her bits then walks off and wees up something

The male is telling you, in the only way he knows how, that he has done his job!!  Really don't know why you keeping trying him??

I keep trying him as I have easy access to him and why wouldn't I when I know my girl is still fertile?? The worst case scenario is they start play fighting like they did today. I don't see the harm?

Except, as so many people have said on here, how will you calculate the due date accurately with so many matings to choose from as a starting point?

Rozzie who else has said I won't be able to calculate a due date?? Can't see that?
I thought it was pretty standard to try and get two mattings? Higher chance of pups

It’s been stated on many of the other threads regarding due dates. I gather two matings are standard, but not unlimited access as you seemed to imply.

I've never done any testing either, don't see the point unless you're going abroad. I would keep trying. When using your own dog, one the bitch is familiar with,  she will quite often allow a mating before she actually is ready, and the dog will go ahead in the excitement. He will then refuse to mate again until he knows the bitch is ready. If you have a good scanner they can then tell you what date she most likely took at. It's happened to me more than once and once scanned it was obvious that the bitch had not taken on the early mating.

There was no testing in my day. We used our own judgement, and usually travelled a long distances for a single mating. Maybe we missed out on larger litters, but as long as there was one puppy suitable to found the next generation, we were happy. Though we had an occasional singleton, I can only remember one bitch missing. It was a 500 mile round trip, but we did get what we were after the next season.

Unlimited access? We have tried once a day, hardly call it unlimited access

Thank you Goldmali for your helpful reply :)

My maden bitch was showing signs she was ready to mate on Monday evening, my friend owns the stud dog so I collected him and brought him home.

just to say, it doesn't look like the op owns the male

Re continually allowing a male to mate ..... fact is if you allow this, over any number of days, you WON'T be able to pinpoint her 'due date' which is important.   You DO need to know her due date to be able to assess what's going on.   For eg. I never let mine go more than 2 days over their due date without involving my vet.  Again as breeding dogs is far more reliable than in humans, you really only need ONE mating provided she's standing and he's willing.   Most people will take 2, a day apart, for 'insurance'.

I think it's more important to get semen in there and improve your chances of success, than it is to worry about due dates. You won't have a due date at all if she doesn't get pregnant!!

If you are doing cytology you will know when the due date is because you can look at the slide and know when the bitch has entered diestrus.  The cells will stop being all cornified like they are in estrus and you then know she has entered diestrus and she will whelp 65 days after that, plus or minus 24hrs.

It is well worth learning how to do cytology.  You can do it yourselves, in your own homes, with a microscope and some fixative and dye.  You can determine when estrus starts (not proestrus, before she will be receptive, but estrus itself) and you can then do natural breedings throughout estrus.  You can also know when diestrus starts and then predict your whelping date accurately.

If you want to learn how to do it, join Avidog and sign up for an Avidog Platinum membership.  You will learn loads more, as well.  It's $49/month and you can join just whilst you are breeding and raising a litter and then stop.

Quite agree with Goldmali a trollop of a bitch and a young or over keen dog will mate too early on occasion and then wait until the bitch is truly really ripe, not allowing the second mating or for the bitch to indicate she has gone over may often lead to a miss as the semen has died by the time the eggs are ripe.

> Re continually allowing a male to mate ..... fact is if you allow this, over any number of days, you WON'T be able to pinpoint her 'due date' which is important.

To be honest without knowing when the bitch ovulates your still guessing.

Some bitches will stand from the LH surge (2 days before ovulation and 4 days before fertilisation can occur), right up to 48+ hours after the ova are mature (so up to 4 days after ovulation), left to their own devises most would mate over 4 - 6 days, from ovulation until the ova die.

Choosing to mate them once during that time gives you  a chance of a litter, but no more clue of due date than allowing several matings as most bitches whelp 62days+/- 1 day from ovulation.
You won't know when that occurred. You will actually be more likely to estimate it, if allowing the pair to mate until the bitch goes over as you can then count back to when ovulation likely occurred..

For successful AI where semen may only live hours it would be done 3 days after ovulation, where it is introduced directly into the uterus.

> To be honest without knowing when the bitch ovulates your still guessing.

True, but at least only allowing a mating over say 3 days (first - gap - a second) narrows down the potential due date?   Only once did we have one of our bitches miss, and we later discovered that the male, bred to a number of other bitches because he was an American Champion only newly bought by fellow-breeders in Canada, so popular initially, had missed to them all!     And with all our bitches (other than the one who did miss), we have been able to assess where in her pregnancy she was.   And when to involve, or not, our vet(s).   And one of our litters did involve an A1.

> at least only allowing a mating over say 3 days (first - gap - a second) narrows down the potential due date?

Not really, Mamabas.  Semen lives for up to 5 days - sometimes 7 days.  So you would have fertilisation any time from the day of first mating until 5-7 days after the 2nd mating - a huge amount of time...

> Not really, Mamabas.  Semen lives for up to 5 days - sometimes 7 days.  So you would have fertilisation any time from the day of first mating until 5-7 days after the 2nd mating - a huge amount of time...

So even more reason not to have a bitch mated more often than as I suggest

Thank you to the people who have recently replied! Yoir comments have been much more helpful and outline my worry about a over keen dog being early
I would rather have to sort out the due date than not have any puppies!!

>I would rather have to sort out the due date than not have any puppies!!

Right....