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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / First time breeder, dog killing puppies
- By Sunflower [gb] Date 25.09.18 18:05 UTC
I’ll try and keep this as brief as I can, and am really hoping someone more experienced can help.

My 4-year-old Bichon Frise got pregnant whilst at kennels. She had the pups 6 days ago - four of them. I had read up and researched as much as I could and the whelping went well, to my inexperienced eye. She ate all the placentas, chewed off all the cords, licked them all half to death it seemed(!), and basically seemed to be bonding as well as could be expected. I stayed in the same room as her and dropped off for two hours; when I woke up again, one of the pups was dead. It was still warm and obviously hadn’t been dead long, but was beyond saving.

On the vet’s advice, I took my dog and the pups for a check-up the next day. The vet was very pleased with how well my dog was doing and she said the remaining three pups were very healthy and very well-developed/bigger than normal. She was pretty unfazed about the dead pup and said it had possibly been smothered - it was smaller than the others.

On the fourth day, my dog kept running around with one pup in her mouth - she seemed to be looking for somewhere to put it, but couldn’t decide where. This pup ended up being sopping wet because she was licking it so much. Then I suddenly saw my dog had the pup in her mouth and was literally squeezing the life out of it. She would not release her grip, no matter what I said. The pup went limp and then she dropped it. I picked it up and it was floppy. I thought it was dead but then its foot moved. So I massaged its chest and blew air in its mouth and it came round. Later, I reunited it with its mum and litter mates and it ate along with the other pups. About an hour later, I found it dead under its mother; she was sitting on it. The other two pups were lying where I’d last saw them all, I.e. curled up against mum’s stomach.

Today (the sixth day) and yesterday, my dog seemed much happier in herself. I thought maybe the second pup had been ill (she was trying to ‘heal’ it with licking?) and that she felt better now that that pup was out of the equation. The remaining two pups are thriving. I thought. I’ve just caught her, again, squeezing the life out of one of the pups in her mouth. Again, once the pup went floppy she dropped it. Again, I’ve revived it. This pup is the larger of the two remaining pups and has been eating really well. I don’t understand why my dog is doing this. Can anyone help/offer advice?

Ps she has a quiet whelping area/box, but our house is quiet anyway - there are only three of us, no little kids running around, no visitors since the pups have been born. No other pets. I am at a loss to know what to do.
- By tatty-ead [gb] Date 25.09.18 18:29 UTC Upvotes 1
Look up 'eclampsia'
I have never bred but talk to your vet urgently or a breeder you trust, if it is eclampsia she needs treatment now or you could lose her as well as the remaining pups
- By furriefriends Date 25.09.18 19:15 UTC
Under the circumstances would it be safer to remove the pups and hand feed ? I don't breed but hope some breeders will see your post and reply
- By Brainless [gb] Date 25.09.18 20:34 UTC
Agree very likely Eclampsia. (it is a veterinary emergency).  Other signs are staring into space, agitation, and as you have found carrying and/or killing pups.

Also is it possible pups are too hot, as I have known bitches get very upset if pups are very vocal due to over heating.  In that case the mucosa would be very deep in colour and pups would be restless.

It is a good idea not to leave a bitch unattended with a litter before their eyes are open, especially a maiden, or one showing poor mothering.

Some bitches especially in the more infantile toy/companion breeds are not very good mothers.
- By Sunflower [gb] Date 25.09.18 21:25 UTC
Thanks all for your replies - much appreciated.

I have looked up eclampsia. I would say the only other symptom she has is panting - she’s certainly doing a lot more of that, but I was putting it down to nursing and being more thirsty. (She has a constant supply of water.) She isn’t agitated or staring into space or anything like that. But, not wanting to take any chances, I will phone the vet first thing in the morning for advice.

I am keeping the pups separate from her overnight, but will set my alarm for every two hours for them to feed. This is the only thing I can do, really - I don’t want to wake up tomorrow to another dead pup :( I hope I don’t have to hand-rear them, but realise that I may be forced to.

I didn’t know that toy breeds do not generally make good mothers - she herself came from a litter of seven(!) and all of them survived, but that wasn’t her mother’s first litter which I am sure can make all the difference.
- By RozzieRetriever Date 25.09.18 21:30 UTC Upvotes 4
Sorry, but from what I’ve heard of eclampsia you need to act now.
- By onetwothreefour Date 25.09.18 22:16 UTC
CALCIUM!!!!!

Even if you don't think it is eclampsia, even if you don't think calcium will do anything - GIVE IT TO HER, because it won't do any harm and is the cure for eclampsia if it hasn't progressed to a medical emergency yet.

Eclampsia at its most extreme is obvious and a medical emergency, but what many don't realise is that it affects dogs at lesser degrees and extremes.  Did your vet check her calcium levels when you took her in?  Probably not, since most vets know nothing about breeding... :roll:

PLEASE give your bitch calcium - you will not get enough from ice-cream or dairy products, you need calcium supplements to be able to give the quantity needed.  Do you have any Tums in the house?  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strength-Supplement-Chewable-Assorted-160-Count/dp/B001IAPXSA/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1537913179&sr=8-1&keywords=Tums  

If not, go and buy some from anywhere you can that is open or ask someone to bring you some if you don't want to leave her - there must be a pharmacy open near you.  In the morning, go to a pharmacy or health food store and buy some calcium tablets.  It doesn't matter if you get calcium carbonate or calcium citrate - either are fine. 

Tums are calcium carbonate and will need to be taken with food, so the dog can absorb the calcium.  (Calcium citrate can be given without food.) 

It's important to know that you need about 90mg of elemental calcium for each pound of bodyweight per day.  As you are likely sleep-deprived and stressed:  1)  Convert your dog's weight from kg into lbs using google.  2) Calculate 90 x [however many lbs your dog weighs].  This is how much ELEMENTAL calcium your dog needs, per day.

However, elemental calcium is not the 'whole' of calcium:  For example:  Tums provide 40mg of elemental calcium for every 100mg of calcium carbonate in the Tums.   This means a 20lb bitch could have 4.5 tablets of Tums.  A 10lb bitch, half that.  

You can dose this 4-5x a day, if her behaviour continues - it is fine to continue with calcium this high throughout lactation if you need to. 

You should see improvement within 30 minutes of giving calcium.  Do not underdose - it is extremely hard to overdose on calcium anyway during lactation and it won't be effective if you underdose.

If you let us know what your bitch weighs and what type of calcium you are able to get hold of, I'll be able to help you work out the dosage if you are stuck.  Good luck...
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 26.09.18 07:40 UTC
With this going on, you absolutely must take these puppies off mum (or her out of the whelping box with them) and only put them with her to feed - every 2 hours 24/7.  Is she helping them to eliminate?   Make sure they are warm (external heating) because newborn puppies can't regulate their own temperature initially.    Has the litter been noisy, apart from when feeding?   A quiet litter is a contant one.  Apart from the advice given re eclampsia, I'd involve your vet, asap.   Clearly none of what's gone on, is 'normal'.
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 26.09.18 09:20 UTC
"A quiet litter is a contant one" ...... obviously that should have been contEnt one.   Just to repeat, if you can keep them nursing from mum, removing her once they have had a good feed (with you RIGHT THERE!), and she's been able to lick them to help elimination, that would be far better than having to bottle, or tube feed!   But don't leave her with them alone, for one second.    And if she's like this with her puppies, obviously plan on this being her first and ONLY litter.   She needs to be spayed after this.
- By onetwothreefour Date 26.09.18 12:12 UTC
Yes, I totally agree with MamaBas on this - keep pups drinking from mum, even if you need to supervise feedings every 2-3 hours.
- By burkemichelle43 Date 26.09.18 14:02 UTC
I will strongly disagree with TOY BREEDS or not good mums I have a yorkie and a very small chalkie smaller then alot chihuahua and they or great mums and to be honest this can happen in first litter she could be unsure on what to do my daughter's dog was court she was only just over a 1half years she constantly moved the pups frim place to place she neglected then so we had to do basically what you done set an alarm to make sure they got fed from mum she used to pick pups up and through them over her head jst do as ypur doing
- By Brainless [gb] Date 26.09.18 16:59 UTC

> I will strongly disagree with TOY BREEDS or not good mums


I did state can be poor Mums more often than many breeds, mainly because they are often babied and spoilt, and some tend to be more infantile with less natural instincts. 

It is also true that some toy breeds can be more difficult to housetrain reliably, though many are very good.
- By Sunflower [gb] Date 27.09.18 09:03 UTC
Onetwothreefour - I owe you a huge thanks for this great advice :)

I didn’t have Tums in, but I had something similar - checked the label, calcium content etc. Calculated using your example (thanks - maths isn’t my strong point!) how much she needed. Fingers crossed it’s done the trick. As I type she’s feeding the pups contentedly/helping them eliminate. Things really seem to have settled down. Thank you.

Ps no, the vet didn’t check her calcium levels, by the way.
- By onetwothreefour Date 27.09.18 09:14 UTC Upvotes 1
Oh that's so great to hear.  :) 

Keep up the calcium, she can have it 4-5x a day for as long as you need.  If you see weird behaviours again, give her extra. 

There are so many breeders who, in the past, have concluded their dog is a poor mother and should be spayed and should never have puppies again - so many litters been taken away and hand-reared - all when calcium supplementation completely avoids and solves this; it's a tragedy and we should be spreading this info as much as we can :)
- By Sunflower [gb] Date 27.09.18 09:19 UTC Upvotes 1
A massive thanks for all comments/advice.

The litter does seem content - they are quiet/asleep when they are not feeding. Yes, she’s helping them to eliminate, and has done since they were born. What I’ve now done is followed your advice and removed the pups from their mother, but returning them every couple of hours when she feeds them/helps them eliminate (and during this time I’m watching them like a hawk). It seems to be working. I’ve added the calcium now too.

I’ve been feeding my bitch some complete (dry) puppy food on the advice of my vet, as she said it’s more nutritious for the nursing mother than her usual food, but I’m wondering whether to supplement with some chicken or meat?

I don’t think she’s spoilt (I’m actually usually probably too strict with her), but my teenage daughter does ‘baby’ her I suppose! After this experience, I have already spoken to my vet about getting her spayed and will do so as soon as she’s finished nursing. My main priority beyond that it finding the pups good homes, or keeping them with us if I can’t. But she’ll never be in this situation again.
- By Sunflower [gb] Date 27.09.18 09:23 UTC
Thanks onetwothreefour :)

Yes, I am so relieved! And glad not to be hand rearing, as I know that quite apart from anything else it’s much better for the pups to be fed by their mum. I’ll be getting her spayed though as I think one unplanned litter is enough(!)
- By onetwothreefour Date 27.09.18 11:02 UTC Upvotes 2
I would try to put pups back with mum again, now the crisis is over - and make sure you supervise closely.  At least, do this during the day whilst you can supervise - if you are still at all worried, take them away at night if you need to sleep.

Pups gain a lot from having an attentive mother - research shows that mothers who mother well (being very attentive, cleaning quickly, etc etc) produce puppies less predisposed to behavioural problems than mothers who are poor mothers.  So, the best place for them is back with her if her behaviour has stabilised...
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / First time breeder, dog killing puppies

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