Hello to all, we are now 3.5 weeks post neutering and bar a suture reaction (typical of my luck, poor dog) the boys are healed.

I am trying to decide whether to completely retrain recall or whether to try and reinforce it. I'm working from Total Recall, which I have worked from before but which had its limitations as other dogs were of such immensely high value to them.

The two suggestions are that either one goes back to basics with a new signal, or that one uses the existing signal but go back and reinforce each stage again. I'm not very sure which to do.

The current recall signal off lead is a specific toot on a specific-pitch whistle, but i also use a verbal "come" and arms out signal depending on circumstance. Today I took both boys to a 4 acre dog field and their recall was extremely good, instant turning and running flat out to me at the whistle, breaking off from sniffing, play and drinking to come. At one point there were dogs being walked past down the lane so I took mine (who hadn't noticed yet) as far away as possible. They did spot the dogs about 300m away and started towards them. I was leery about using the whistle in case they didn't respond (having responded perfectly up until then) so I called verbally instead and they both came to me immediately.

Because all along I have known that continuing to command when they are not obeying is the worst thing to do I would say the eldest has only been able to actually ignore the whistle 3 times, twice before the suprelorin in November last year and once since. The youngest has ignored it twice, both within the last 5 months.

I don't object to a total retrain and my dad recently gave me, hilariously, a bosun's hail I could use as the new sound. But equally if they are so much more responsive already to the original signal I wonder if it would be better to continue with it as they have been hearing it since they were 8 weeks old. Opinions?

Going with my experience with my dog I would stick to your whistle commands. Because the whistle was used by her breeders right from the moment the puppies were on solid feeding, the whistle sound to come to me is very much part of her life. I've noticed that when using the whistle she turns and comes back almost without thinking as if it's become an instinctive reaction rather then one that's purely down to obedience. There's a fairly good chance your lads are reacting in much the same way as you started so early with them
Isla has occasionally blown a recall on the whistle, I found the best thing was to carry some extra special treats (dried fish cubes float her boat like nothing else), just to get back into the swing of things.
I also use non verbal/sound cues, arms out stretched, which she seems to react more strongly to then the verbal come for some reason.

I'm sure there will be better replies, I'm just going by my observations

What are you doing with the dogs when they return to you?

I'd stick with the current cues because their response to them is so strong, as you've described it.  So you've got that foundation rather than starting from scratch.

I'd look instead at how you reinforce the recalls - not just longlines etc but the rewards you use, how you deliver them and how you behave yourself.  I've had dogs recall to me fantastically well for relatively boring food when their owners couldn't get them for sardines, just because of my behaviour to them upon recall (and in general, I engage with dogs much more than owners tend to).

There is also an element of preventing them running off in the first place, which for me with Linc (who can be a sod for it in some circumstances) has been a combo of teaching a prevention cue (a good old fashioned 'no' taught on-lead) and an auto-recall from dogs (return to me on sight of them).  I am also constantly working on his 'leave' cue since his prey drive was switched on back in spring and that has proved useful for his inclination to go to dogs as well.

As they run towards me I cry "yes good boy" in my high pitched exciting voice and do a lot of arms out exciting gesturing and crouching down. Upon return they are fed something nice. The other day it was hot/warmed cocktail sausages from a foil packet in my pocket but plans include hot cooked chicken, gammon, lorne sausage, black pudding and brisket. I wouldn't say warm cocktail sausage is all that thrilling but you never see dogs usually, even in the lane, at that dog run. I took them there to try and establish the quality of recall in a large area but without distractions, I'd have taken chicken if I'd anticipated the dogs. The book also recommends fasting before trying harder steps but the youngest is on antibiotics for his suture reaction so they'd been fed as usual. I will be doing 24 hour fasts whenever trying something a bit harder going forward.

The running off in the first place I'm intending to tackle with engage/disengage exercises. Both of them are silly fooling type reactors (leaping bowing and gambling begging to play) , though the eldest much less that the younger now (he will look and maybe bow right as we pass but not react at all if the dog is 10m away).

Today the youngest was able to disengage for a treat from another dog once it was 30m or so away which is a big improvement but clearly lots to be done still. A complicating factor is that we were actually on the bit if bypass verge where they ran off to and both the youngster and our friends entire male were going wild there so she must still be in season and still walking there daily. I was walking them separately today, as all kinds now at school and mostly settled it is now possible to do so. Time in hand to get these issues sorted.

I should say I don't make a fool of myself in a no-distraction recall. I save my yipping and gambolling for when I have competition for their focus.

Can’t comment on poodles appetites, but with GR's it doesn’t matter how much they've eaten beforehand more food is just as welcome as if they were starving.

Appetite here very much depends on what else is happening.

Before neutering you could hold hot cooked chicken or beef almost touching their nose and if there was a dog on the horizon they'd simply move their face away from the food to look at the dog. I did try the fasting back then but it didn't make any difference.

Now they are generally keener for food (only 3.5 weeks since neutering, vet thinks it will take 6 to see full effect) but for instance today we're both too aroused by a nearby dog (everyone on leads) to take a treat when it was close by, again just ignoring the food at their nose to crane at the dog. Conversely the entire lab we were out with immediately broke off his barking (they were really all riled up by the bitch scent) as soon as he heard my treat bag rustle and came and sat at my feet expectantly. I have trained 4 friends dogs perfect recall to my whistle, without meaning to

I'm not keen on starving for training purposes at all, and there was a study done some years ago that found that learning actually decreased when it was done, because the dog is so focused on getting the food that they don't learn what worked to get it.

Perhaps feed a little less, but not a full starve.

How do you actually give the treats?  Just as exciting as the "incoming" bit?

Nikita I have VERY mixed feelings about the fasting. Mostly because I did it in earnest last time I tried to tackle this and it made no difference, back then I was still of the mindset that it was me and not somewhat also the dogs, but I've taught so many dogs to recall now that I accept mine are perhaps a bit less food focused and a bit more dog focused than others. My older dog remained completely fixated on the other dog over 500m away after a 24 hour fast and didn't even look at warmed smoked sausage (which they both absolutely LOVE). However they are raw fed and the odd fasted day or day on bones only are not totally unheard of so I'm planning to work it in that way if need be.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "how I feed the treat" - from my hand usually. Sometimes I feed a big chunk and sort of smear it through my fingers so it takes them a good long time standing there to eat, if I want them to stick by me I feed some then throw little bits around me as I walk playing "find it". Sometimes I get them all to sit and put their leads on and feed it slowly then take leads off again. Sometimes I shout catch it and throw it to them. It just depends - are there better ways to feed it? I'd love to have some!

Can you let us know what their relationship with toys/retreiving is? I find this to be a much bigger reward for my dogs than food.

> As they run towards me I cry "yes good boy" in my high pitched exciting voice and do a lot of arms out exciting gesturing and crouching down

I think I've told this story before but it's worth saying again I think (I'll never forget it).   Working on a recall with my Whippet when only young, in a totally contained field, I called her in, using the silly voice, arms out etc.   She came ...... and came ...... and came and by the time I realised she wasn't stopping, she'd slammed into me knocking me off my feet.   I'm not sure who was more surprised, her, or me but my husband was standing laughing his socks off.  I suppose, once I recovered (good job I didn't go down on a rock), it WAS funny for anybody watching.   She stood there, looking worried but how could I do anything other than tell her she was a good girl

> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "how I feed the treat" - from my hand usually.

I mean your demeanour immediately before and during giving the treat.  How that treat is delivered can make a very big difference - excited voices etc while the dog is on the way certainly help, but if you then just become a glorified treat dispenser, some of the potential magic is lost   I engage with the dog fully, up to, during and after a successful recall, making the treat munching as exciting as the running up to get it.

Gundog I've tried a hungred toys but they're not very interested. They will fetch a ball or Frisbee a few times before dashing to it but not bothering to bring it back, tug toys likewise they will play with a bit but quickly look around for something more fun. I have practically passed out leaping about trying to make toys more exciting but they're just not bothered. At home they would far rather do nose work or chew on a bone than play. Interaction is their best "toy" if that makes sense. The only thing they have ever been keen enough on to want to play with on a walk was a flirt pole I made with a lunge whip and shredded bit of fleece. It's a pain in the bum to take out and about and of slightly lower value than a good treat. But both are more playful now so I will endeavour with the flirt pole again.

Mamabas if you look at their Instagram page @fonziandroo you can see a video from the other day where only Fonzi diverting him prevented Roo from completely wiping me out at the dog field (there's also a video of a recall there although it's not hugely good because in order to video it I was more focused on trying to find hands for treats, whistle in mouth, recording the right bit if field etc. but it does show their response well, just not me!).

Nikita, oh you mean "ooh nomnom a lovely sausage, so yummy, mmm, lovely nums". Yes I do do that if I'm especially impressed but it's a good reminded to make the treat more of an "experience" than just some food, thank you.

Very mixed today. Local bitch must be very local and at her peak because after 6 days of no marking (just one or 2 long pees) my eldest marked 7 times on his walk today. I have new vgw bälte harnesses for them and the eldest did beautiful heelwork on his and we did engage/disengage with distant dogs and, for the first time, success!  The youngster however was so distracted near where the bitch trail is that he couldn't take a treat even when there were no other dogs. Away from that area he was better but it took heelwork and lots of sit-stand-twist-heel-sit type exercises to get him engaged, without my full effort and attention he just went back to looking about for other dogs.

Re mamabas post
Had someone who came to class with a large young VERY enthusiastic Lab, she started with standing against the wall to recall but progressed to a loud 'sit' when he was about 5/6 ft out - she did get bruised knees until she got the distance right.
Her husband brought the dog one evening .............  ended up on floor ......... never brought the dog again

I would also use the whistle when I fed them. Prepare their food out of sight and use the whistle to call them to you for their dinners - jackpot reward and reinforces the return to you = reward  :-)

Yes I've done this since the first day they were in my home at 8 weeks, although they are poodles so I don't do it every time, or they'd be able to read the time by now I also sometimes whistle them to dinner, then whistle them off their dinner and feed them a whole roast chicken breast or a hot mattesons sausage or something.

Recall is only ever a problem with other strange dogs. They would always recall from exciting surroundings, games with familiar dogs, dead wildlife etc. Saying that exciting smells did begin to result in deafness too, and increasing drifting off after those nice smells. All bitch related behaviours basically.

In fact Harley I think YOU might be the reason I whistle them to meals - someone here on champdogs, in the year before we acquired my eldest, described this on a thread where I asked for advice on training a puppy.

Have you taught a ‘stop’ whistle command. If you can get to a point where it is automatic to stop the instant the whistle is heard and then recall it could help as a further distraction from other dogs

It could have been me but several CDers of old use this method

No. The whistle has always just meant "come". How would I teach stop?

This is how I taught it, theres probably other ways.

Ask you dog to sit and as his bum is just about to hit the floor, peep on the whistle. Do this time and time again in different places round your house and garden when you’re out on walks, so that he learns to generalise the action and the whistle sound. Praise and treat for the correct action

Then try just blowing a peep on the whistle and see if the dog sits and has put the sound and the action together yet, of not go back to the step one. If he has, then practice the whistle and the action is different places as before.

Then try peeping the whistle when your dog is further away from you and again if he doesn’t get it, go back to step two, but if he does then keep practicing as before working towards your dog being further and further away from you. I have a hand movement to indicate a sit which is handy as a back up if the dog is a bit u sure what to do initially.

Then the final step. When your dog is out on a walk and is moving away from you, blow your stop whistle. Hopefully he will sit and look back at you. Of course - keep practicing in different situations.

What you really want to achieve is for your dog to be running away from you and when you blow your stop whistle he will stop dead. It’s brilliant when it works.

When you have got your dog to stop, then you have a choice of recalling or asking the dog to stay and you going to the dog. Keep practicing both changing whether you recall or go to him randomly so that he needs to keep watching you to know what is going to happen (and when he gets the praise and treat)

I have trained "stop to the whistle" and it's a really useful additional command to gain control.

I trained it in a very similar way to that described by Jodi. 

I did start the training with the dog walking in the heel position and asking them verbally to "sit" when I stopped walking.  Then I would blow the whistle as soon as I stopped followed immediately by the verbal "sit".  Eventually I was able to drop the verbal cue and just use the whistle.

Then I started asking for a whistle sit when they were a short distance away from me (in garden & house) reinforced with a hand signal (see below).

As Jodi says, practise, practise, practise and build up distance and distractions very gradually.

To start with I always rewarded by going to them and giving them a yummy treat while they were still sitting - i.e. rewarding the position you want to help them get the idea of sitting and staying where they are to wait for the reward/next instruction.

I have also combined the "sit" instruction with a hand signal (arm up, palm towards the dog like a policeman stopping traffic)  This is useful at a distance to help the dog understand what you want.  It's also good if you want to instruct them quietly rather than shouting "sit" or whistling!  So I have ended up with three different stop commands "verbal sit", "whistle sit", and "hand signal".  Various combinations useful at different times in different circumstances!

For whistle recall I do several short peeps.  For stop whistle I use a single, longer peeeeeep.

I can't put my hand on my heart and say it would always stop them in full flight but it's a really helpful extra string to the bow!  "Stop" and then "recall" sometimes works better than recall alone, I find.

Might be worth a try - and another good fun "bonding" exercise to teach ...

I’ve got mine to stop when off to see another dog, but never once off after a rabbit or squirrel. As both creatures either dash down a hole or up a tree, I just wait until that happens to recall her which she does happily. I had one GR that used to stick her head down the rabbit hole and bark frustratedly, I had visions of deaf rabbits

Ha, ha - "Deaf rabbits" - lovely!

Hey this is so useful thank you. They both already know hand signals for sit, down, stand, stay, wait, watch and all up (meaning jump up onto this thing) so i should be able to team a whistle to a sit fine. It sounds fun to work on too.

My recall noise is peep-peep-peeeeeeeee so a short peep for stop would work wouldn't it?

Both of them are currently a bit...mental. Lots of crazy play, humping and reactivity (no aggression just a bit more "all over the place"). Vet and breeder assure me it's FSH and LHRH surging causing it and it will level out with time. I've had some sort of lurgy today so spent quite a lot of time on the sofa treating them for just lying calmly at my feet.

A single short peep for stop should work fine for you, poodlenoodle - anything as long as it's different from the recall peeps!

Agree, your short peep or a longish single peep (peeeep) should be fine. Have a listen to some YouTube videos of someone working gundogs to get the kind of peep I use (someone like Philippa Williams who often demonstrates at Crufts would good as well as a laugh especially as you are feeling under the weather)

Oh yes - Philippa Williams is great to watch.

Pippa Mattinson also has good articles/videos on training the whistle stop.  You can find these on her site "Totally Gundogs".  Useful for all sorts - not just gundogs!