Hi all,
A friend bought a breeding age bitch who was up for sale. The dog in question looked sad in her photo, which was drew my friend towards her. It was noted that she had abandoned her past pups, so would be endorsed. My friend agreed and went to to collect the dog. When the breeder was going to do the paperwork, this dog crawled towards my friend on her belly, when he called her. My friend thought it may just have been as the dog didn't know him. However, when he got home, the dog continued to cower, even with his wife and children. The dog also looked like she had not long had pups. On the kc, there were listings of one litter registered. When my friend contacted the breeder, the breeder said they had tried to breed her again, but she didn't fall pregnant, which in my opinion is the real reason they no longer wanted her. Also if she neglected her last litter, why would you then try breed from her again so soon? I honestly believe she never abandoned that litter, and if she did, it was probably out of fear, or unhappiness. She still cowered and cringes, and flinches so much that she falls over. So, how have these type of breeders got the audacity to endorse a dog, when she's clearly not been treated right by them. She has had no health tests whatsoever, or innoculations and wasn't microchipped until just before my friend got her. She has also seems to have had no training when out. We wonder if she's ever been out for a walk before. She is 3 years old. She is a beautiful dog, and my friend said it's a shame she's endorsed, and would have her fully health tested if he could have a litter by her, in which he'd keep one. He would also make sure she was matched to a good sire, who was also health tested. He also doesn't believe that she abandoned her last litter, otherwise they wouldn't have tried to breed her again. However, with endorsement in place, he can't. Do you think that breeders who clearly haven't cared for their dog, should endorse them?, and if so, should the endorsements be lifted if the correct procedures were carried out prior to breeding. It makes both me and my friend so sad to think that anyone could be so cruel :(

Sorry, I should just add, that my friend has said, he would make sure she was fully happy, and stopped cowering, before even attempting to breed, even if the endorsements were lifted. Also he would make sure all health tests were good. I must also add that he would still be keeping the bitch, even if health tests weren't good, and will instead get her spayed. If endorsements were lifted, due to good health tests etc, and she did have a litter, my friend would be keeping her And one of her pups.

I am sure the experienced breeders will soon be along with comments but imo the best thing your friend can do for this dog Is never to breed from her but offer her a kind and caring forever home and hope some of the past damage can be repaired. I would also have her spayed at when the time is right

shes clearly had a rotten time and personally no way on earth would I put this poor bitch through having another litter.  regardless of whether she passed health tests, regardless of paperwork .  even if turns into happiest best balanced dog on planet it would be totally unfair.   her first owners sound vile but the one thing they did do which was good was endorse her papers.  she would not have been for sale if were any good as a brood bitch.  making her pregnant again would be totally wrong .
if he wants another dog go buy one off a decent breeder. or get one off a rescue.

Fair point. I know he just loves her so much, that he wanted one that was related to her, and didn't want to go back to that breeder for one. I know he said he'd thought of finding one that related, i.e one of her litter's offspring if they have any, but not knowing where they all go, it's impossible. I totally understand your point though. He may think about it and change his mind, perhaps with some gentle persuasion from yours truly. By the sounds of it, they wouldn't lift endorsement anyway, and I know he wouldn't breed unless endorsements were lifted anyway.

What I don't understand, is, if she was such a bad mother, why on earth would they try breeding her again. Surely she can't have been that mad a Mum? Or do these sort of people just not care? That's why we wondered if it was more that she didn't fall pregnant this time, than abandoning her last litter, but maybe I'm wrong. What bugs me the most is that these people have obviously dished out some beatings. She is a lovely dog. I've had the pleasure of meeting her on a number of occasions. Very gentle, but frightened of everything. TV remotes, drinks bottles, feet, even walking too quickly in her direction bless her. It makes me want to hurl at the thought of anyone being that cruel. She sleeps in his bedroom, but at first, she was frightened to set foot on the stairs. Same with the sofa (I think he may be now teaching her bad habits, but so what). I think she deserves to be allowed on the sofa and his bed. I would let her get away with a lot too. I know the last we spoke, he's going to get her health tested regardless, just so he knows what he needs to prepare for. Who knows what ill health she may have :( xx

she will have loads of relatives . pedigree dogs always do.  ie my 2nd weimaraner has some dogs in her pedigree that were also in my first weimaraners pedigree despite them coming from different breeders many many miles apart and 8 years difference in age.  they are indeed related- distant but its there.   no need to breed a pet bitch to get a related pup- they will already be out there and with different breeders
`and regarding first owner trying to get a litter off her after first litter went wrong, yes you are right they probably don't care,  thats normal for puppy farmer types, and they really would not have sold her if she were capable of having another litter.   my Grandmother had a xbreeder bitch , middle aged, past it for breeding who was the same initially- scared of everything, no ability to walk on lead etc. we do not think she had been cruelly treated exactly but had been kennelled and never seen life outside of kennels so found everything hard at first. she did get over it though and eventually was fairly normal

Ok, I'll put it to him. :( Oh would breeders really do this. Even if the litter was kc registered :( That makes me extra sad. How do you find if they are relatives without dna testing? Did your grandmothers dog flinch and cower so much that she fell over? I'm just wondering if that would happen with kenneling?

We have dogs ourselves, and although they're trained, it's only by positive ways, by treats etc. I've never seen a dog cower like that, it's sickening :( It's his first dog, so although he's seen our dogs many times, he didn't know if it was natural for them to be like this when in a new home. However, he'd had her for 3 months now.

even more important he drops idea of breeding her. you do not breed your first dog. first dog should be enjoyed for what she is.   a new owner simply does not have the dog experience to manage a pregnant dog , birth and raising of a litter.    it can all go horribly wrong and you can lose both mum and litter if do not know what you are doing. 

also it is extremely normal for a new owner adoring their now beloved pet to get idea that as she is so wonderful it is necessary to breed her to perpetuate her . its totally normal for new owner to get this idea and its based in love but its a real bad idea!   I adore my weimaraner, and her predessor but I know how wrong breeding can go, I love my dogs too much to risk their lives having a litter when I do not know what I am doing.  breeding is a risk, a balanced risk if you are knowledgeable with a good support system of experienced breeders to help but a risk none the less.  even experienced breeders can have a bitch die, or the litter or indeed both.

relatives.. thats where kennel club registration comes in, in her pedigree will be the names of all her ancesters,  you could then track   down relatives descendants down

Just a very quick reply - a dog with a really good base temperament will not get as scared and timid as this even if not socialised.  Sure she can have been treated harshly but as nothing can be known for certain, it could be that this bitch genetically has a weak character and then her pups could end up less than ideal temperament wise, even if she has turned around and become confident in herself. Never breed from a nervous bitch, no matter what. Temperament is more genetic than environmental .

So this friend bought a birch knowing any puppies she might have could not be KC registered(if he signed a contract that advised him of this)& now despite this & her history & her behavioural problems he wants to breed registered puppies from her ?? Really ?

There is of course nothing to prevent him from breeding from her, the endorsement only prevents him registering her puppies. Why does he want to breed from her ?? Is she such a wonderful example of her breed that her puppies would improve the breed ?

This friend should hand her over to a breed rescue,who have the ability to overcome her problems.

Yoiu never, ever breed from a nervous dog, regardless of the background because you have no idea how much of their behaviour is caused by trauma, lack of socialisation or genetics.  And genetics almost always play at least some part, especially when the fear is this severe.  Some dogs can still recover to a degree, some like this one end up severely frightened and genes are at the root of determining how strong that reaction is.

Plus, as there is at least the possibility that she's already abandoned a litter, she is not in any way, shape or form, suitable to be a breeding bitch.  What she needs is time and patience to help her get over her fears, and that can take years.

When I was a bit of an innocent abroad over selecting a good breeder who was breeding for a good temperament as well as health, I made the mistake of falling for anlitter of puppies from a bitch whose temperament was poor. I thought it would be no problem so long as the puppy was raised in a loving caring environment and socialised correctly. How wrong was I.

The nervy pup grew into a difficult adult dog who, despite good treatment from everyone, did not like strangers and other dogs and would bark and behave badly. She was great with us and dogs and people she knew, but everyone else was treated to a volley of barking and intimidating behaviour. She was actually scared, but that was how her poor temperament was displayed. She was hard work, but I did learn an awful lot about training and dog body language from her. A less able owner (not blowing my own trumpet here) may well have not been able to deal with her and she could have been passed from owner to owner or pts. There were nine puppies in the litter two of whom I met, one was tremendously fearful and would rather die then let a stranger touch her, the other was like my dog.

Temperament is largely inherited and puppies also learn from the mother, so your friend could be bringing a number of other puppies into the world who have equally poor temperaments which could demonstrate  itself as nervous aggression rather then abject fear.

Far better to not breed from this bitch, have her spayed and let her live a quiet happy life as a much loved pet. If your friend wants to find another dog who is related to her then check the name of the dam and sire on this website or on the KC site to see if they are still breeding or if any siblings are being bred.

I think going on to mykc via the kc website will help in your search as well.

I’ve just remembered something.

The dog I mentioned who was from the same litter as my nervous dog who was scared of people, was at the vets. She was pregnant and was having a check up. Can you imagine the stress this poor dog had over vet visits, having to be handled by a stranger, then when the puppies were born having strangers regularly turning up to see the puppies.

It really isnt the best thing for your friends dog to have a litter of puppies how ever desperate he is to have one. He needs to put his dog first

I don’t understand the obsession with having one that’s related. Surely, if you have to have another dog, a calm, steady, confident dog would be preferable to ANYTHING the breeder has to offer. IMO she may be better being a much loved single pet, she’s going to need a lot of love, patience and time to recover her faith in people.

I cannot honestly believe that her new owner would even contemplate breeding from this bitch For the reasons everyone else has stated. They should just focus on rehabilitating her and letting her live a stress free life as a loved pet.

Hi all. Thank you so much for your sound advice. Good news. He has decided against breeding her. He said he's not even going to search for an ancester yet. He's going to concentrate on making her feel more secure. I did find this out rather loudly, down the phone, when I mentioned this site. He said if the original breeder saw it, they may take the dog back, and he didn't want her to go back there. I was told in no uncertain terms, that I had no right to post on here, without asking him first, which I suppose he's right in a way, but I didn't mention him by name, nor did I say what the dog was, so hopefully that's not going to happen. Lesson learnt. Shall mind my own in future. Anyway, he said he's taking her in next week to get her spayed, and I'm sure he will, after this. Oh well, if some good has come of it, I'll live, sniff.. I'll just go and nurse my eardrum now!

> He said if the original breeder saw it, they may take the dog back, and he didn't want her to go back there.

Ummm!  And how exactly could that happen.  He doesn't know the law then.  A dog is PROPERTY.  He paid for the dog didn't he?

You  an assure him that none of us have a clue who he is or where he is .we have no way of finding out either as doesn't the breeder.   u have gained good advise anyway that could help other whoay read your post . Pleased to learn she is being spayed and that he I tends to concentrate on her .doubt it will be quick but it will be  worth it

Yes hopefully it doesn't take her too long to settle

Oops, sorry, that was meant be a smiley face. I can't find a smiley one, I need my specks. Just pretend that was a smiley

>he said he's taking her in next week to get her spayed,

See, I don't think that is the right approach either.  She is a nervous bitch who has just moved to a new home.  The last thing you want is to be putting her through the trauma and stress of major surgery.

Furthermore, there is research to show that bitches (or dogs) who are nervous should not be neutered where possible - since it can make them even more nervous and/or reactive.  He may have to neuter her as she gets older, to prevent pyo, but not yet.... she can benefit from her hormones and grow in confidence with him.  At the very least wait until she has totally settled in and is happy in her new home...

>Anyway, he said he's taking her in next week to get her spayed,

Does he know when she was last in season? It's risky to spay bitches at the wrong time in their cycle. Also it'd be better to give her time to settle into her new home before undergoing the stress of surgery. There's no rush, so better for all to give it several weeks.

I'd agree that she surely needs time to settle into her new home before being hit with a spay surgery, which is invasive, however you look at it.   I can't agree, sorry, re why not to spay nervous bitches but I think, provided he can keep her safe, it might be as well to delay the spay until she has a season, and then get it booked for a couple of months later when you know what her cycle is (at least when she last had a season).  Far better to get it done so she doesn't become pregnant, by accident, and pass on that temperament.   Which for sure, she will.

> I thought it would be no problem so long as the puppy was raised in a loving caring environment and socialised correctly. How wrong was I.

And the reverse I have found also true.

I along with 3 friends imported a 9 week old puppy when dogs still had to do 6 months solitary confinement in Quarantine.

I visited him three or 4 times a week, being locked into his kennel each time. He could hear other dogs but not see them, and I used to bring in a Radio on with talk channels on, and did some lead training.

He came out at 9 months and went straight to a large open show three days later where he was confident and friendly to all dogs and people and showed really well.

> See, I don't think that is the right approach either.  She is a nervous bitch who has just moved to a new home.  The last thing you want is to be putting her through the trauma and stress of major surgery.

This.  Major surgery is the last thing she needs right now and the experience of being left at the vets surrounded, and handled by, strangers could make her issues considerably worse. 

> And the reverse I have found also true.

> I along with 3 friends imported a 9 week old puppy when dogs still had to do 6 months solitary confinement in Quarantine.

> I visited him three or 4 times a week, being locked into his kennel each time. He could hear other dogs but not see them, and I used to bring in a Radio on with talk channels on, and did some lead training.

> He came out at 9 months and went straight to a large open show three days later where he was confident and friendly to all dogs and people and showed really well.

That to me is the perfect example of the difference genetics makes - a dog with a fundamentally good temperament will weather difficult times, poor socialisation etc just fine.  A dog with a fundamentally poor temperament will not.

I see the differences often between ex puppy farm dogs - some come out and get over it all pretty quickly, some don't.  Some are a bit nervous, some are completely and utterly shut down.

> I along with 3 friends imported a 9 week old puppy when dogs still had to do 6 months solitary confinement in Quarantine.

I'm interested in this 'solitary confinement' because although mine too went through 6 months in Quarantine Kennels, and they were housed in three groups (we bought back 7 from Canada) they were not shut in their cabins during the daytime by any means.   Yes, they had each other for company - two kennels had 2 and 3 in them respectively, with the third twosome,  as the 3 kennels were round a corner, their cabin and run went across the bottom of the runs of the other 2 runs, so for sure, they could all see each other.   The whole facility had music playing/loudspeaker during the daytime.    We visited every week (they were in a facility the other side of the country as our plans changed at the last minute).  Oh and there was a fourth empty kennel and run which was used when one of them came into season during their time in there.

I didn't have any shyness going on with any of them when they were finally released.

> I'm interested in this 'solitary confinement'

There was a hedge between the bottom of the kennel run and the road and walls, topped with twin weldmesh panels, between each dog run, too high for the pup to see over (A very large dog may have been able to see his neighbour.

So our boy could see the top of tractors and high vehicles going past, and the staff, but that was it.

There is a lot of breed difference in this as well.  Shutting a 9 -16 week old Malinois or GSD or Dobe away in a kennel and expecting them to come out well-adjusted, is a bit different to doing the same with many other breeds.

Many breeds need careful and committed socialisation to fulfil their potential or even be able to live in human society.  Others, just don't.  But have also not been bred for high trainability or guarding purposes.

Shutting a 9 -16 week old Malinois or GSD or Dobe away in a kennel and expecting them to come out well-adjusted, is a bit different to doing the same with many other breeds.

And again it's genetics. I've spent years working towards Malinois that have temperaments that have stronger characters, without being OTT as some working lines can be. In the past I've both owned and known dogs that were properly socialised and still ended up nervous wrecks. I then imported, bought in, mixed and matched different lines and bred for temperament only, ignoring looks for a while. Quickly realised you see the difference as early as 4 weeks. The biggest problem I had in the past was that you could have a dog that had been well brought up, well socialised, and turned into a great dog, and when mated to an equally good dog, you still ended up with nervous pups. I'm sure that genetics are about 90 % responsible here. So yes, you certainly have to socialise properly, but also have to know the pedigrees inside out, knowing what temperaments the dogs in it had. Just going by what the parents are like is not enough.

> I've spent years working towards Malinois that have temperaments that have stronger characters, without being OTT

This was why I moved away from the BSD's (genetic weak temperament, even though my bitch was praised for hers, it was all reliant on my presence),  and went for the breed I have, the stronger basics are already there. 

Yes they have been developed as a hunting dog to think for themselves, so you don't get the unquestioning obedience.

They are loyal, intelligent, learn things very quickly, but they do need to see something in it for them. Once they really respect you they will develop a work ethic with their human partner, but it's not a given.

A bitch I bred passed her qualifications as a Search and Rescue Dog in Australia at 14, though was never deployed. At 11 she became a Dual champion adding the tracking Title after she had done her TD and TD ex.  Over there Neuters can't compete in open competition, so her owner decided on a change of career.

light hearted in the USA: https://www.facebook.com/norwegianelkhound/videos/579099798855490/

Wow, wasn't expecting that many replies, thank you all. I'm a wee bit nervous about relating this back to him, as he's currently not talking to me. Um, maybe some grovelling from me, and apologies plenty, then subtly hinting that he need not rush into spaying her just yet, and to just enjoy her for now, but make a note of seasons?. So pleased my current dogs were already spayed and neutered when I got them. Seems a fine line as to when is right and when is wrong. More importantly, I had my kids, and my old dog (sadly no longer with us, from the ripe old age of 19) as a pup, and I have decided lovely as my babies were (human and canine) I was glad when they grew up, and I only had them one at a time. A whole load of babies in one go? Cute when someone else has the sleepless nights, but it's not something I'd fancy. I did understand his reasons, but have to say, I also agree to your comments. Now to pluck up the courage, and maybe think of a little sorry pressie, before he blasts me again. x

It’d be a shame if he can’t see that you were acting with the dogs best interests at heart! Good luck!

> The biggest problem I had in the past was that you could have a dog that had been well brought up, well socialised, and turned into a great dog, and when mated to an equally good dog, you still ended up with nervous pups. I'm sure that genetics are about 90 % responsible here. So yes, you certainly have to socialise properly, but also have to know the pedigrees inside out, knowing what temperaments the dogs in it had. Just going by what the parents are like is not enough.

Oh yes.  You've only got to look at Ren for that (also a malinois, for those reading who don't know of her).  Nice parents, well bred, everything done right, and she is a genetic wreck in terms of temperament.  Absolutely distrustful of strange dogs and humans, has been from birth with humans as I understand it.  She'll never be able to cope with either outside the house, and every single negative experience she has with either (apart from me) is immediately filed under 'dangerous' and her behaviour altered to avoid any chance of it ever happening again.

This is why I scream inside whenever I see anyone even thinking about contemplating breeding from any dog without an absolutely stellar temperament.

I don't think you are the one who needs to apologise, you tried to help your so called friend and he has had a tantrum when he should be thanking you. If he is not talking to you just ignore him for a while, you have done nothing wrong, everything has been for the good of the dog. Who needs stroppy ungrateful friends? Wish someone cared that much about me and all my pets

Yes I agree. Thank you all for all your useful information