fgs of course people will ignore endorsements just like they ignore rules for other things in life but its good attempt by breeders to reduce the likelihood of breeding inappropriately . how you can lay the blame for people  breeding and ignoring endorsements at the door of those who have put on those endorsements I fail to see

How else do you suggest they try and monitor what happens to their cherished pups ? it may not work in all cases but its a pretty good attempt and one I like to see for any pup I buy.  just because people ignore the endorsements isnt a reason to stop using them

As for wasting money on health testing ! why on earth would you want to breed without knowing if you are likely to cause ill health and suffering to any pups. As Jodi says there are plenty of us who care an awful lot but choose not to breed for many very good reasons and look carefully for breeders who do test their breeding dogs.

Neutering does not prove you are a good owner either , it has to be done at the right time if at all.Preventing your animals from breeding is responsible but there are other means than neuter for dogs

I TOTALLY agree that endorsements don't stop the unscrupulous from breeding their bitches/allowing their males to be used at stud.   But it does mean that the puppies can't be KC Registered.  Not that that means much to the BYB who, going by another well-known website, still advertise their unregistered puppies at pretty much the same price as registered puppies sell for.  Back to selling mix-bred 'rare' breeds for more than a purebred of either breed in the mix, sells for.    I guess endorsements show intent, expecially if the original breeder explains why the endorsement is being placed.   But in reality, that's about all.

The only way to stop puppies being bred from, is to spay/castrate before sale - which means puppies can't go into the world until of an age to be neutered first. 

Ive seen contracts in other countries which have spay/neuter contracts in place so they must do it by a certain age with proof its been done. Very strict but is that thw way forward with preparing to take to court if not done?

and really it is in the hands of the puppy buying public, standards will stay low if they accept them.

Neutering does not prove you are a good owner either

Never said it did, but what I did fully expect was that response and the one telling me "there are other means"   In my house there is not.
Never said breeding without KC reg was right either ......Just said that is what happens to thousands of pups.
Never said endorsments were wrong either.... just that the determined will ignore them because it is easy to do so

Personally I believe EVERY dog, cat should be neutered as a legal requirement to ownership.  Unless  they have  passed ALL health tests possible for that breed, it should have a modicum of working ability if required (gundogs) and pass a temperament test.  Governed by Breed Clubs and the Kennel Club, only breeding allowed should be carried out by agencies who may have a for need them like Guide dogs, police, assistance dogs, again parents must have appropriate tests.

Recently I saw a litter advertised for a Irish Setter x Standard poodle,  the puppies were for sale at £2,000 curiosity got the better of me and I contacted the advertiser.  It was the second litter, none had been tested for PRA and none had been hip-scored.  She had one dog pup left and had sold all pups by 5wk old at prices between £1500 for dogs and £2000 for bitches.  Were do these dogs end up, the price encourages more breeding by a  tom dick or harry, endorsements cannot stop this but compulsory neutering can.

Unfortunately neutering an immature animal has disadvantages as well as advantages.

Responsibly owned entire animals do not produce puppies.  Those who are determined to breed will not neuter.

My bitches spend half their lives entire and none has ever had more than three carefully planned, reared and homed puppies.

Why would I need to be forced to neuter my dogs, (mind you all bar my maiden 3 year old are spayed, ages 6 to 15). We find it hard enough to recruit new (responsible) breeders as it is.

Sadly plenty of the other sort, and idiots who buy their product.

> Endorsments do not protect the dogs though do they, at all.  Thousands of un registered dogs are for sale on petsforhomes from KC registered dogs who's parents have endorsments.  They don't stop people breeding.  They just prevent people wasting money on health tests and registration costs.

They would have back in the day when a cross or unregistered pups wernt worth any money but nower days they can cost the same price or more than a well bred dog. They do however protect the breeds registered gene pool. But some breeders do abuse them sadly.

However they in no way prevent someone from health testing, and if a breeder doesn't bother to health test as the see it as a waste of money to ensure they breed healthy pups just because they can't kc register them then frankly they are irresponsible terrible breeders who shouldn't be breeding in the first place and if they think so little of health testing they would likely not have done them anyway even if no endorsements. So again the breeds gene pool is protected from these irresponsible breeders.

>Personally I believe EVERY dog, cat should be neutered as a legal requirement to ownership.

There are side-effects to neutering, though.

Other means are by not allowing your dogs to get into a situation  that allows them to breed.  If u do neuter I hope  it's after maturity at least

Ive seen contracts in other countries which have spay/neuter contracts in place so they must do it by a certain age with proof its been done. Very strict but is that thw way forward with preparing to take to court if not done?

It wouldn't work, because once you have bought a dog, legally you can do what you want with it. However there is no harm in adding it to contracts, as at least it will make people think twice. I did this when I took in a rescue who turned out to be pregnant, and I rehomed the pups.

> Misleading the innocent purchaser is unacceptable.  It’s Nothing to do with “getting my own way”.  Really silly comment if you had read my entries you would see that was nothing to do with it.  I bought a puppy and was told there was a restriction on breeding until she had a satisfactory hip score.  The goal posts then kept changing.  That is what is unacceptable.  It is about honouring a commitment.  A breach of contract. That is what I am upset about but now you have advised there is no profession and no governing body  it really is a buyer beware and be extra vigilant who you buy from.

I totally agree that the seller of your dog should not have misled you about the endorsements, whether they did this intentionally or perhaps they themselves were unaware of the breeder's wishes, it is also true that you as the buyer should have been more vigilant. At the same time the KC rules take time and experience to know well, that's why it is also understandable that you may not have thought about this complication with endorsements when you bought the dog.

But the rules are there, contrary to what MamaBas says the KC will not lift the endorsements (unless they make a mistake). What Brainless quoted on the previous page is correct. The only contract that matters with regards to endorsements is the one between the breeder and the original purchaser. If the original purchaser re-sells the dog and doesn't tell you about the endorsements, there is nothing the KC can do. It is certainly unfair to you as an innocent purchaser, but to lift the endorsements contrary to the breeder's wishes would be equally unfair to them - as they could be just as innocent as you are, having sold the puppy and notified the original purchaser about the endorsements and not misled anyone.

My comment about "getting your way" was meant to be a friendly one - in your posts you did refer to "following this up" and "principle", and because the rules are what they are, I just wanted to say that it's not worth your time and effort and upset.

By what age would you want neutering to be done ?

I presume for bitches BEFORE a season so that there are no accidents ?? Ah but how do you Score for ED before this ? You can't as dogs need to be 12 months old for ED scoring the same for HD(unless you PennHip) so they would need to have their seasons chemically prevented

What about dogs ? They can sire puppies as soon as sperm is produced so they would need to sperm tested from a very early age & then castrate asap Ah but then they can't be ED or HD scored until 12 months & you would need to chemically castrate( not advised by the drug manufacturers BTW before puberty)& of course dogs aren't immediately infertile after castration.

Of course you will be aware of all the health problems caused by pre pubescent neutering ? No ? I suggest you research them.

Now I always neuter my bitches when MATURE, my dogs are kept entire, none has ever produced a litter despite being successful well bred working dogs from fully health tested parents & who are ALL health tested.

So why should I be forced to neuter them just because people like you want dogs to be neutered by Law ?

Ok well thanks.  I just want there to be some honour and professionalism among breeders.  And I firmly believe there must be an independent arbitrator.  Not the breeder who has, or may have, his own interests do serve.

Eek.  I would never support castration or spaying without just cause.  Gross interference with nature.

And take a vets advice re best timing if for some genuine reason neutering is necessary

I never said immature neutering  all mine have been over 2
I have never had complications after neutering 11 dogs and 13 cats, must have just dropped lucky hey
Complications I have had are a pyometra at 8months old
a toy dog who had problems with his penis getting stuck outside his sheath and getting infected because he was sexually hyperactive and he had to be neutered at 11mths

Well you run the risk of "accidental"ratings if you allow people to have unneutered dogs of different sexes in the same home don't you otherwise why want ALL dogs neutered unless fully health tested or working gundogs. You never mentioned sheepdogs I did.

There is no medical reason to castrate a dog unless it has testicular cancer or similar life threatening problem. Testicles are easy to check unlike a bitch's womb & pyometra is far MORE common than testicular cancer, hence my having my mature bitches spayed.

You want pets neutered not for medical reasons but as contraception it is obvious from your posts. Replacing responsible ownership with forced invasive operations on male dog owners.

As for asking vets about best age to neuter they by & large will opt for pre pubescent as it is an easier operation for them- not the dog. They don't usually care about the after effects of early neutering

>As for asking vets about best age to neuter they by & large will opt for pre pubescent as it is an easier operation for them- not the dog. They don't usually care about the after effects of early neutering

Absolutely right. The longterm health issues of pre-pubescent neutering of both males and females are well recorded. Larger breeds are even more susceptible to the associated problems.

Heading way off topic now!  Think this one has run its course?