We recently purchased an 11 month old Brittany spaniel puppy.  After purchase we were told there was a restriction on breeding in respect of a hip score test..  and assured that if that was satisfactory the restriction would be lifted by their friend (who had actually bred the dog).  we arranged the hip score test only to subsequently be told by the breeder that the friend (and she) were now insisting that even if the dog passed that test they must first approve the pedigree stud dog - before they would consider lifting the restriction.  The friend breeder Even emailed and told me she would not lift it as as far as she was concerned she was purchased as a pet.  Is there any way we can hold the  kennels from whom we purchased the dog to theor contract?  Or any ideas as to what we can do?

What does it say in the contract about lifting endorsements?
Have you had her hip scored yet? How old is she now, if just over a yesr she is too young to breed.
Did you say when you purchased her you wanted to breed?

The contract was oral. And some emails.  The pedigree  papers sent subsequently just say none of her progeny  can be registered.  It appears to be a blanket restriction.
She is now over two years old and we had hoped to breed her in the spring. 
Yes I made it clear I intended to have one litter of puppies and the kennels even gave advice and suggested I should use a Pedigree stud kennels in France

If no contract then speak to the KC. Is there a valid reason why they dont want ypu to breed like a health issue which has cropped up in the line?
Have you had her hip scored yet? Dont they eye test the breed too?

The KC apparently apparently can’t lift the restriction as it was out on By the kennel owners friend, who bred the dog. 

There are no health issues at all.  The parents hip scores were good.

Happy to have hip score test done but little point if it will
Make no difference.  Had it scheduled this month. 

So any other options?  Any one with any ideas?

I am hoping there may be others who have had the same problems with kennels selling pedigree puppies in this way?  We paid £900 for her.

I think the only thing you can do is talk to the Kennel Club about this.   Purchasers should really be told, in writing, about endorsements at the time of purchase, with both parties signing so there is no misunderstanding going on.

There's nothing to stop you breeding from her but as you know, any offspring can't be registered with the KC unless the non-breeding endorsement is lifted.  

Ditto re the stud dog to be used.   It should ALL have been in writing.

If she was 11 months when you purchased her, I wonder why she was available at that older age.   Perhaps they ran her on, but for some reason she didn't come up to their standards, so she was sold.   In most cases, that would be as a pet, especially given her comparatively low price really.   Had she been sold as a show/breeding bitch, she'd have cost a deal more I'd suggest!

Lesson - ALWAYS get it in writing!!

I had a look at the website and they sell puppies and part trained dogs .as they are hpr I imagine it's in that discipline althoigh not being good enough for work is also possible . I wonder if she was one of those.  Can I ask the reason u want to breed ? Breeding restrictions are common and imo reasonable and I guess bot all breeders will lift them if they feel.there is a good reason.what is the breeder giving as her reasons ?

Extracted from the Canadian Basset Hound Club statement of ethics "The breeder agrees to use the Canadian kennel Club non – breeding contract on the sale of immature pet / show stock or until the potential of the animal is known"

This I adhered to when breeding/selling our puppies both in Canada and back in the UK.  EXCEPT for the one occasion, back in the UK, I sold two puppies, at 10 weeks, to a fellow breeder who I totally wrongly, trusted.  Would that I'd put full endorsments on those two so they didn't end up being sold to ANOTHER breeder in another country.  I still weep that they didn't go 'not for export'!!   At least that might have prevented the bitch being bred FIVE times when with the overseas breeder.

>The KC apparently apparently can’t lift the restriction as it was out on By the kennel owners friend, who bred the dog.

Felicity, for the KC to be able to uphold the restrictions on the registration, they need a contract SIGNED BY BOTH YOU AND THE SELLER whereby you say 'I agree to these terms and conditions, I agree not to breed before X year of age etc etc'. 

If the Seller can't produce this document, then you can get the KC restriction lifted.  Phone the KC, say that the seller is changing the conditions constantly on you and that there was no signed contract at point of purchase and you would like them to lift the endorsement. 

The KC will lift it, if the Seller can't produce a contract signed by you both...

> Felicity, for the KC to be able to uphold the restrictions on the registration, they need a contract SIGNED BY BOTH YOU AND THE SELLER whereby you say 'I agree to these terms and conditions, I agree not to breed before X year of age etc etc'.  <br /><br />If the Seller can't produce this document, then you can get the KC restriction lifted.  Phone the KC, say that the seller is changing the conditions constantly on you and that there was no signed contract at point of purchase and you would like them to lift the endorsement.

It's only the person who put the endorsement on who needs singed proof the buyer knows about them. If the buyer resells the dog the original stands even if the second buyer isn't informed.
It was an old loophole that was closed to prevent people selling a dog to a friend to get around the endorsement.
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf

> The KC apparently apparently can’t lift the restriction as it was out on By the kennel owners friend, who bred the dog...... I am hoping there may be others who have had the same problems with kennels selling pedigree puppies in this way?  We paid £900 for her. <br />

If you have written proof the seller told you they would be able to be lifted if hip scored you could try citizen advice to see if this would come under 'not as described' but it wouldn't make them lift it though so if the breeder refuses not much u can do

Thank you everyone.  That’s the problem.  I want to try to get it lifted.  It is unfair and unjustified.  It’s not  about the money although I guess if I was to claim for the lost sale of the pedigree pups i guess it might be!  If
That is the last route It is the one I will take but I would prefer for it to be lifted.

Is there any Body that  supervises breeders and breeding? And sellers of pedigree pups? 

Ideally the profession should a governing body?   Thanks

But selling the dog to a friend in this case is exactly how they found a loophole - because I cannot rely on the kennel as they just can say, we know what we promised but hey ho we didn’t put the restriction on.... so nothing we can do! 

Surely the kennel club need to review
This generally.   Otherwise The second  purchaser (in this case a professional breeder also!) can avoid any
Assurance he or she makes
Relying on this loophole???!!

I meant the first purchaser - !!!  The second purchaser being the innocent one acting in good faith!

That’s sad - but then again at least you did not tell  your purchaser something they should expect to rely on from
A professional.

Thanks.  They simply assured me that
The only issue was to ensure
No bad hip scores/problems  were passed on down the line with the breed.  We also advised we wanted to breed ... and it was agreed if hip score was satisfactory the restriction could be lifted.  There were ninither stipulations given!

The breeder is simply
Now saying  it was a restriction put  on by her friend and she is imposing further conditions, such as demanding to agree the stud farm ... and dog we propose using - and then no doubt there will be something else!

You could try speaking to Trevor Cooper at dog law they are very good but i don't know if his knowledge would cover this

Could u talk directly with  the dogs breeder and get what she wants in writing as evidence in case of further changes.  Having someone passing messages on is never helpful in difficult situations. Maybe if u explain why u want to breed and do it correctly u will get her agreement. Much cheaper and easier than having to go to law

Yes I will try ... but then again, when you rely on a professional kennels word ....  the only contact I had
From the original breeder was when I advised
Themkennelmof the date of the hip score to be carried out and confirmation what I needed to do - and she emailed herself and said that as far as she was concerned the dog was sold as a pet and she
Was not going to lift the restriction.  They are
Apparently good friends.  But I will send the email.

I will contact him.  Thanks so much.

Sounds like the original.breeder may have been in the dark over your intentions and may have good reasons why the dog should not be bred from .Also according to what u have been told.there are further conditions needed but thay same person has told.u directly the dog is pet only not breeding if I've understood correctly.
I would only deal.with the dogs breeder for.now not the kennel she was purchased from

Look at it from the breeder's point of view. They sold an endorsed dog to a friend, and agreed to lift the endorsement if the hip scores were acceptable. The friend then sells the dog to a stranger that the breeder doesn't know. If I was the breeder there would be no way on earth I would lift the endorsement, and I'd be very glad that the KC had plugged the loophole. The breeder doesn't know you, hasn't chosen  you as a suitable home and suitable to breed from one of their pups. Sounds to me like the breeder is in fact being very responsible. Why did the friend even sell the dog? Sounds like it was because she didn't live up to expectations whether it was re working or showing or both, and then such a dog, if they do not wish to keep it as a pet, should be homed as a pet and nothing else. The person at fault is the one who sold you the dog. The injured parties are the breeder and yourself. If I was the breeder I would be furious. The KC will not lift the endorsement because the agreement was between the breeder and the friend. I'm not saying that you are not suitable in any way, just look at it from the breeder's view.

Great post Marianne totally agree it was what I was trying to say only not as articulately as u have

FWIW I would show your good intention by going ahead with the health screening that is recommended for the breed. If you get a poor hip score, or eye report, it is unlikely that you will want to mate your bitch anyway.
If the results are good, I would them to try and establish a good relationship with your girl's breeder. Make sure to attend breed club events and major shows to signal that your intentions are genuine. If she is concerned about the choice of a stud dog, discuss this with her. It is likely that there is a good reason, so if this person has a good reputation in the breed, I would seriously consider being guided by her experience.
You will be able to make your own choice for the second litter, by which time you will have more breed knowledge.

Interesting but I can’t agree.

In this case - The breeder gave or sold the puppy to her best friend who runs a a Brittany spaniel kennels.  I think the pup was a payment for the sire.  She sold it on.   They knew she was intending to try to find to find it a new home.  It was advertised on internet.   I was assured that the agreement was that if the hip score was satisfactory the restriction would be lifted by her friend without problem. 

I could be a dreadful person of course, but even if I were, I should be entitled to breed the dog and register the puppies with the KC if it passed the hip score test.

NOTE:  The dog had not been spayed.  If the breeder had not wanted the dog to be bred and only ever
To be a pet,  that would be the only certain way to do it.  Why didn’t she? 

The fact A person is a stranger to the breeder  is totally irrelevant to the kennel club registration of the  puppies. 

The second purchaser is
Not bound by the contract terms of the original sale.  How could they be as they were not parties  thereto and did
Not know if those terms? 

The reason for the restriction should be clearly set out at the KC
- not a blanket restriction - and available for all to view.  Also the benefit of the contract, in the normal way, would pass to the purchaser.

So sorry - the system is flawed.  The breeder at present seems to be able to take advantage of the very loophole the KC was apparently trying to close.

Interesting but I can’t agree.

In this case - The breeder gave or sold the puppy to her best friend who runs a a Brittany spaniel kennels.  I think the pup was a payment for the sire.  She sold it on.   They knew she was intending to try to find to find it a new home.  It was advertised on internet.   I was assured that the agreement was that if the hip score was satisfactory the restriction would be lifted by her friend without problem. 

I could be a dreadful person of course, but even if I were, I should be entitled to breed the dog and register the puppies with the KC if it passed the hip score test.

NOTE:  The dog had not been spayed.  If the breeder had not wanted the dog to be bred and only ever
To be a pet,  that would be the only certain way to do it.  Why didn’t she? 

The fact A person is a stranger to the breeder  is totally irrelevant to the kennel club registration of the  puppies. 

The second purchaser is
Not bound by the contract terms of the original sale.  How could they be as they were not parties  thereto and did
Not know if those terms? 

The reason for the restriction should be clearly set out at the KC
- not a blanket restriction - and available for all to view.  Also the benefit of the contract, in the normal way, would pass to the purchaser.

So sorry - the system is flawed.  The breeder at present seems to be able to take advantage of the very loophole the KC was apparently trying to close.

This is our fifth generation of Brittany spaniel. Starting with a prize winner from la Roche Sur Foron in France. Whilst they have been pets to us, we have bred them with good pedigree dogs in France. 

I am surely entitled to breed my pedigree dog with another pedigree dog at my choice. I do not want to take her to beauty competitions....  That was never our intention.  So I don’t intend to go to shows. 

I already offered to take the advice of the kennel or the breeder re the the stud dog (although I have
Used several and know their qualities).  It
Cannot however be unilaterally imposed as an additional term of the contract to lift the restriction that
Was solely in respect
Of a
Hip score test.

Surely  dog breeders should be professional and have a governing body to whom complaints can be made??!  With sanctions.

I am a very responsible dog owner and it has never been suggested by the kennel owner to the contrary.  She has
Had many photos of the dog and seen how happy and settled she is - and acknowledged  this herself.

People were getting through this loophole where a breeder was selling a puppy to someone in good faith with restrictions and said pup was then sold on again to perhaps someone the breeder wouldnt have sold to and then they got restrictions lifted. Only the breeder can lift and for good reason. I think you need to email the breeder or call them and have a chat.
Do you work or show the breed? They are a tough breed for most pet homes if im honest and wouldn't suit many homes at all if they aren't going to partake in an activity, seem it a number of times in this breed and other working gundog breeds.

If the breeder has no intention of lifting then there will be no way of fighting it. The KC wont lift unless there is a court order in place to do so.

Thanks.  I will try but sadly I am not hopeful as the kennel lady made it clear she was speaking for herself and her friend.  They are clearly both closely involved and breed pups together.

Yes I agree.  We know the breed well.  I scrutinise the homes for my  pups too as I am sure most do. 

Yes Perhaps a court order might be the only route - but I find it hard to believe breeders and kennels are not subject to any professional rules? 

It’s such a shame as it leaves it open to abuse.

The endorsements are there for the safety of the dog really. The rules are freely available to read on the KC website. Nobody responsible  would spay a medium sized bitch at just 11 months of age, so again it makes sense that it wasn't done. I agree that you have two options; hip score, show or work to prove the bitch and gain a good relationship with the breeder. Or you have to take the seller to task for misleading you. But unless you have an email or anything else that can prove what was said, it might be difficult.

Sorry Felicity, I hadn't realised that you were a long established breeder.
I still think that, if at all possible, the friendly route is preferable to taking legal action though.

Really?  For the dog?  Unilaterally imposed eve. without justification? Without limitation?  At whim?  How can it be in the dogs best interests?   Not preventing the breeding of the dog just the registering of the puppies with the KC?  I can’t help feeling they seem to be there for the breeder.  Closed circle.  How can this help or protect my dog?  Surely there need to be a valid reason for a restriction??

It just seems so unfair to have to take that civil court route..  yes I reckon I have enough evidence as fortunately there were three of us at the time of these discussions.
And emails. 

of course had I known this was a blanket restriction before I purchased her it woukd have been  different.  It should also surely be specified as to what the restriction is.  Not just a blanket one.  I don’t feel the innocent purchasers are being protected with the current route.  I do think the KC need to consider changing the rules to prevent this happening.  There should surely be a  VALID REASON  with evidence provided before a Blanket restriction is imposed by the KC.

It is what it Is.  WARNING  to everyone to be really CAREFUL who you buy your pedigree puppy from!   And as one of you kindly also warned me THEY MUST PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING!

So - and finally - it appears there is simply NO professional body that breeders must belong to? And or rules to adhere to?  What a shame.   It reflects badly on the profession and it is,
And should be, a profession of honourable dog breeders.

Next time (and I hope it will be a very long time away) I think I will go for a rescue.  Or a pedigree  from a French kennel  (as two of mine were). 

I will try emailing the breeder direct (remain happy to have the hip score test) and the dog law chap - before resorting to the law. 

And I will also start a petition to the kennel club for there to be valid reasons given for restricting breeding - with justification.   And an appeal process for all.

And for breeders to have a professional body with rules they must adhere to.

Surely that would be the better way of protecting the animals?  They are the priority I agree.

I believe these restrictions/Endorsments are the reason  so many non KC registered dogs are for sale now.  All they achieve is dogs being bred from bitches and studs that have no health tests done, what is the point of spending the money?  If people want to have a litter for whatever reason they will do it

A quick browse of PetsforHomes will show you many people with dogs who are allowing them to be used at stud on any bitch of any breed

Yes you are probably right.... it’s a shame and the end result is it doesn’t help or protect  the breed in the long run.

I really did try!

What you’ve said seems to be a contradiction in itself. The way you can make a breeder less likely to breed from said dog is by putting restrictions in place. There is justification because you haven’t even had the dogs test results come back yet. As others have said go down a work/show route whilst doing all relevant health tests and then you have a solid case to question why she can’t/won’t lift the restriction. But in my opinion at this early stage I think it is in the dogs best interest that she’s got endorsements in place. For an experienced breeder I would’ve imagined you’d understand it from your girls breeders point of view, I certainly do (and although I’ve been involved with breeding dogs since childhood, I’ve only bred my own dogs the last few years). Also you put in capitals ‘warning’ and to be ‘careful’...surely as a good experienced breeder you wouldn’t have bought the girl if everything wasn’t done properly ie. a written contract.

Sadly I did.  To be fair it’s the first time I have been burnt.  Lesson learnt!  I come from the old school where a mans word was his bond.

Of Course I understand the necessity for restrictions with a valid reason ie to avoid passing on genetic defects.  But if there  is no valid reason it should not be allowed.

I now firmly believe more than ever we must  have better rules and regulations in order to protect dogs. Not protect breeders.  Not to have a closed shop.  But to put the dogs first and foremost.

Am signing off for now (we are with the beautiful Brittany camping at the moment) but just want to thank everyone for their time
And input.

Much appreciated

Felicity

Sorry response to furriefriends

I think restrictions should be in place but only
Where there is a valid reason for them.  With an appeal process for all!

sorry I deleted my post as i thought u had gone but thank u for.your reply

>If the buyer resells the dog the original stands even if the second buyer isn't informed.   It was an old loophole that was closed to prevent people selling a dog to a friend to get around the endorsement.

Oh right, it's more complicated than I thought and I read too fast in that case...

I would still call the KC and explain the situation and maybe even call back a few different times on different days, and speak to different people - and see if everyone is saying the same thing there.  I've been given about 3 different answers about some things, depending on who I talk to(!!).

So just to be clear:  It is the original breeder who is refusing to lift the endorsements?  Not the person who actually sold you the pup?  What does the person who sold you the pup have to say about it? 

I would try to go back to the original breeder and 'prove' myself as worthy of having endorsements lifted.  Talk to the person who sold the pup and try to get them to put in a good word for you with the original breeder.  Basically - try all diplomatic routes around it.

If that fails:  What if you agree to be guided by the original breeder for choice of stud?  Get the endorsement lifted.  And then do what you want and use the dog you want.  As long as you didn't actually sign a contract, there's nothing the breeder can do to get the endorsements back on again.  Frankly, the stud dog thing is a bit silly:  You're not going to breed a dog which has the endorsements on, so they are going to need to lift the endorsements before the season you mate the dog.  At which point, you can breed the dog to whichever dog you choose and register the puppies.  They can't put endorsements on again, once they have been lifted. 

And then you're down to interpretation:  Agreeing to being GUIDED is not the same as 'agreeing to use only a stud dog approved by the original breeder'.  Being guided, just means taking advice or listening to the original breeder - it doesn't mean you have to then agree and use the same stud.  Even if you had signed something to say you would be 'guided' by the original breeder (and they lifted the endorsements), there's nothing the KC can then do if you use another stud....

I think there are a bazillion ways round this...

Surely you as an experienced breeder are aware of the 2 endorsements that can be put on dogs with the UK KC, responsible breeders will put them on ALL of their puppies ? After all they are on the forms to register puppies & on KC certificates.

Do you mean you don't do this with your puppies?

Don't you use a written contract when you sell your puppies & when you have bought puppies in the past ?

You should have ALL available health testing done asap not come on to a public forum to "name & shame" a kennels you have bought a bitch from.

Seriously?  Please try not to  make this personal or I will think you are associated with the kennels - whose name does not appear.    My concerns are simply factual and I am apparently not alone In having These concerns. 

The public need to be aware of the issues. 

The KC needs to be used to protect the dogs not the breeders. Restrictions for valid reasons are very positive.  For extra money or other reasons they are abusive.

Seriously I have what I need and know what I need to do.

Thank you and I am over and out.

Thanks you so much!  I appreciate it so much I am back’
That is exactly what I did.  Offered to be guided.  No luck!!!  I am going to keep trying every route and thanks so much.  I cannot be the first one ....!

And. ...
This dog was a replacement for my two Brittany spaniels who both died Of cancer (mother and son) very close to each other.    I desperately wanted a new Brittany (yes and to breed as We have always had two dogs).

It seems I just didn’t do my homework properly.

Just pointing out that the breed name is 'Brittany', not 'Brittany Spaniel'.

Ha ha!  Actually you  are wrong.  I was brought up in France.  Epagneul Breton is the correct name.  The English seem to have shortened it.  Never mind - we all know
The breed to which we are referring.

>And I will also start a petition to the kennel club for there to be valid reasons given for restricting breeding - with justification.

There is one absolutely valid reason for applying endorsements; because a breeder has no idea, when registering pups at 4 or so weeks of age, what its hip score will be at 12+ months, or its eye test results, or its hearing tests and so on. Until someone develops functioning crystal balls to be able to see into the future then the safest thing - for the individual dog and the breed as a whole - for puppies to be endorsed automatically.

>Of Course I understand the necessity for restrictions with a valid reason ie to avoid passing on genetic defects.  But if there  is no valid reason it should not be allowed.

You don't know, at the time of registration, if there will be a problem at maturity.

You missed the  point.  I was obviously not clear.

A restriction saying no breeding without a valid hip score or eye test or whatever  - no issue

A Carte Blanche restriction for no specific
Reason - not acceptable.

Specify what you want and require (for the benefit of the breed ) and that should
Be your restriction.

Now what possible complaint can breeders have
About that?

We should all be singing from the same hymn sheet.