Well my post suprelorin bubble is well and truly burst. His distraction is increasing again by the day and he is so dog obsessed again that he's currently barking at the tv because there's a zebra cantering about on screen. Even more worryingly, the youngster actually feinged a snap at another (known, unfriendly but aggressive only in stance) dog on a walk the other day and yesterday knocked my disabled son over because he was leaping about over a dog 50m away when we were leaving the dog run and the next group were arriving. I think I have to accept that two large intact dogs are not realistically going to be manageable by me on top of my family.

So what I'm looking for is: I know there are some increases in cancers with male neutering but I'm struggling to find the studies. My vet (who I trust) says neutering past 12+ months wasn't studied and they are younger pups, is that the case? Eldest is 29mo youngest is 16mo. I'm not hugely worried about whether the problem is behavioural since we just did the suprelorin, which cured it. I just want to be aware of the risks before I go ahead.

Please be gentle. This is an uncomfortable u-turn for me.

I always thought of the use of chemical castration as a precursor to surgery for most owners. Some people use it to get round having a bitch in season & entire dog when the bitch is to be spayed, and then keep the dog entire, but most it's a reversible way of assessing if behaviours are hormone driven.

Are you definitely intending to breed from your dogs ? If yes then the chemical castration would be the way the curb the behaviours, if not than surgical castration would be the best option. There is an increased risk of certain cancers, but studies done have shown this to occur in mainly pre pubescent castration.

They are your dogs & the course you take is up to you

I am definitely NOT going to breed them as their fully health tested proven stud 5yo dad lives only a few miles away and if this is how they are now i can't imagine being used at stud would improve them anyway.

The eldest had a 6 month suprelorin put in last November and his tackle returned to full size about 4 or 6 weeks ago.

I had it fitted because he'd become so dog obsessed that he was deaf and blind to me out of the house. Once it was fully active the implant was like a miracle. My bright, biddable but fun dog was back. He's better about listening since the implant wore off but I see the same behaviours creeping back in. For example pacing the house, whining and barking at dogs (or any 4 legged animal) on the tv, obsessing out If the window all day.

If you search on my name you will see several long threads about the recall training problems, all of which failed because for him a strange dog is #1 priority. Even if he'd not eaten for 24 hours, a strange dog 500-1000m away was more interesting than roast chicken in front of his face. All of this only really became a problem after about 12 months and dangerously bad (in my opinion, I do realise the general public can be pretty casual about it) around 16months I think.

I know I need to do it. I think what I struggle with is that I always see myself as the flexible factor. For example I was told by experts that my son would probably not learn to talk (he has autism) and I've bust a gut to help him, and he's beginning to talk. So even though the implant demonstrated just how huge the role of hormones is in the behaviours, and even though I did puppy and foundation classes, went to obedience club and work with them daily, I have a tendency to beat myself up and think if only I'd done that differently or not allowed this to happen then things would be different. I love how magnificent they are intact, but magnificence is actually quite hard to live with at times.

I'm glad to hear the cancer increase is shown only in the puppy castration, and that is what my vet told me. Ho him. Think I'll phone the vet. Thanks Tommee.

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/06/13/neutering-spaying-cancer-risk.aspxv.there 're others. The one on goodies and the one mentioned her in vizlas might give the answers to your  questions

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

> I always thought of the use of chemical castration as a precursor to surgery for most owners.

I think for the most part, this is true.   It certainly was the case with the two times I had 2 of mine on separate occasions, given Tardak.  The first had prostate problems, probably caused by living with entire bitches (until retired and spayed).   It helped with the prostate problem.   My current boy was given this when he started being stupid with his spayed Whippet companion.   He wouldn't leave her alone and she wouldn't see him off, frustratingly because they normally listen to the object of their desire, better than their owner!   There was probably a bitch in season locally.  It helped although I've not gone ahead with a full castration because he's so bad after a general anaesthetic.   And he now has a minor heart murmur in any case which kind of puts me off him needing a g/a for elective surgery!

Thanks furriefriends. The studies seem slightly at odds with the Viszla one showing age at neuter makes less difference and the Goldie one showing it makes more difference.

I need to look up the absolute risks for the cancers in the vizsla study as it only gives relative risk in the article (which is useful but a five fold increase on a 0.001% overall risk of something is obviously less of a concern than a five fold increase on a 1% overall risk!).

I think it's a difficult one particularly  when u also have to way up the difficulties u may have in the future managing . The future being a long time and the overall effects that could have on you and the family

I think many would do it without a thought. In fact I once met a weird looking lab (very leggy and odd looking, I assumed a cross until I spoke to the owner) who was already a working pets as therapy dog at 14 months and the owner proudly told me she'd had him neutered at 4 months as she didn't want "even a sniff of testosterone to ruin his training".

This is why Champdogs and my breeder are so helpful because my non doggy friends just say "yeah, no-brainer, get it done". Whereas here at least you all understand why I'm agonising (though I probably agonise about everything...)

I always read this through when I need to decide.  Interesting what they say about prostate cancer further down the article.  Yes,,,  I agonise too!

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

That's really helpful, thanks Jean.

I've decided to go ahead (by which I mean I have spoken to the vet and booked them both for the op in a few weeks time, which unfortunately also gives me another few weeks to agonise...) but am at least clearer on the risks included in doing so. It's also highlighted once again the importance of keeping their weight down following neutering as most of the problems neutering increases the risk of seem to be multiplied even further by obesity.

I never looked back after having Finn neutered at 2. Unwanted behaviours including leg cocking in house and humping stopped. Weight gain is not a problem.....feed him less if he shows signs of getting fat. coat is unchanged.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29718954/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201702/are-there-behavior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full?&utm_source=Email_to_authors_&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=T1_11.5e1_author&utm_campaign=Email_publication&field&journalName=Frontiers_in_Veterinary_Science&id=284353

http://www.naiaonline.org/uploads/WhitePapers/EarlySNAndBehaviorDuffySerpell.pdf

https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Collections/Documents/javma_219_4_460.pdf

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/06/13/neutering-spaying-cancer-risk.aspx

https://www.parsemus.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Zwida-and-Kutzler-2016.pdf

In terms of avoiding 'early' neutering and what the research says about that, it's important to know that research has focussed and targeted 'early' neutering in itself - because it is when the majority of dogs in the USA are neutered and increasing numbers in the UK are neutered at 6 months.  But just because this phenomenon has been identified and so many studies have looked at it, doesn't mean that neutering at older ages is "ok" and has no health drawbacks.  Likely it has all the health drawbacks of early neutering - but the studies haven't focussed on it as much, because they have focussed on the trend and pattern that is most in play and examined that...

Sympathise with the agonising, Poodlenoodle!
Have PM'd you.
I also find the research Jean SW refers to very helpful

Very interesting studies thank you onetwothreefour. As i said im not too worried about the behavioural aspect, for the eldest especially as it would be an extremely odd coincidence that his dog obsession evaporated on suprelorin and returned when off it but was actually behavioural and not hormonal. The main issue as I'm sure you remember was wandering/poor recall and that is better now than it was before the suprelorin, but I have really worked hard on it and still can't feel confident about him.

I'm very interested to see in the breed comparison of dog-directed aggression in one of the links posted poodles were actually less aggressive when neutered, unlike many of the other breeds.

It is very clear that there are going to be health drawbacks in neutering. Of that I'm sure. The questions are more how I can mitigate them by timing of the operations or management afterwards.

" .....reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders."

This is why I went this route with the first hound ..... he didn't have prostate cancer but his prostate did flare.

"  in one of the links posted poodles were actually less aggressive when neutered, unlike many of the other breeds."

Isn't this part of why castrate?   Not that it applied to a couple of my Bassets who as oldies, I had castrated, not just the chemical route.  I did have one of our bitches, done earlier than normal (after 2 seasons of coming in aftger only 5 months and not up to good enough standard to be shown/bred from), who was definitely sharper after being spayed, except she was a singleton puppy and spoilt rotten through her puppy stages.  Could be that being spoilt made her they way she was with the others, as an adult, regardless of the spaying.

I think there are certainly valid concerns about health of the dog after neutering.

What seems more worrying to me, is that neutering should not be a means to achieve good behaviour. Breeding good temperaments is such means, appropriate training is such means. But not neutering.

Particularly when we are talking about a breed such as standard poodles, who tend to be smart, loyal, very trainable, family oriented and similar qualities. Such behaviour as you describe just doesn’t sound “normal”. And due to the fact that both dogs who are brothers appear to behave in the same way, I think it strongly suggests inherited temperaments.

But whatever is the reason you now have to deal with two difficult to control dogs, and I think only you can decide how to deal with it, depending on what you believe and what for you is more important.

I would never recommend neutering no matter how successful it could be, because I believe that it jeopardises the dog’s health, and because to me the dog’s well being is more important than other considerations. So instead I’d suggest focusing on lots and lots of training (again taking the breed into account - very traineable). And if you cannot ensure this training for both dogs (who may well need to be separated to avoid them “bouncing off each other” and copying each other etc), I would recommend rehoming one and concentrate on the one remaining.

P.S. I just noticed you said you don’t worry about behaviour because it’s hormones. But hormones influence behaviour, they are inherited just as everything else, so I’m not sure how the two can be usefully separated.

My daughter got a Australian Shepherd aged 15months. He was already a bit headstrong when she got him, could do competition style healwork but couldn't walk on a lead if that makes sense. He gradually got worse, wanting to hump any dog he met, dog or bitch and not bothered which end and if the dog objected he would snap. This wasn't because he was allowed to run free but if other dogs came close to him. Eventually he was neutered, probably aged about three but I can't really remember. Since then this behaviour has stopped and he is much more relaxed. He still prefers not to have a dog in his face but that applies to many dogs. Health wise his only problem has been acid reflux but I think he had that prior to being neutered any way. He competed in agility, getting to the top grade. Retired to veteran classes aged 11 and fully retired aged 12 so neutering doesn't appear to have affected him bone or muscle wise. I have never neutered any of my male dogs but in this case it was the best thing to do.

> He was already a bit headstrong when she got him, could do competition style healwork but couldn't walk on a lead if that makes sense.

I think this could make one think, "there is nothing wrong with this dog's behaviour (i.e. he is very obedient he can do healwork) instead it is his hormones". I don't think it would be correct.

I show dogs, and I learned that they are very quick to appreciate the differences in environment. During shows, competitions and similar, it is almost as if the bubble of time and space forms around you and the dog. Your attention is virtually 100% on the dog, the dog feels it, the dog knows exactly what to expect, the routine is very familiar, and the time is short. All these considerations very much help the dog to "behave". By contrast, the everyday environment outside of shows is completely different.

Of course neutering can help, but so can investing an effort in training the dog. Neutering is quick and easy, while training is not and could well mean maintaining it for most of the dog's life. Neutering can virtually "cure" the problem, training could be successful to a lesser degree.

To me, it would still be training. There certainly are people who heavily smoke all the lives and live happy and healthy until 90 years old. Majority of us though would get cancer and similar diseases

Not everyone knows I suppose, but actually instinctive behaviours are extremely common in poodles. Compared to other breeds they do tend to mark, hunt and roam more. So though it might not sound "normal", it is fairly typical of the breed. Mine do not mark or hunt, the dog fixation is the only issue. My eldest did mark indoors very briefly. The first time I caught him in the act and told him off was the last time he did it.  If they were consistently "difficult to control" then I would have neutered already. The problem I am faced with is that they are absolutely rock solid in most circumstances and not reliable in a few. It makes it a harder decision.

The reason the behaviour studies are less important to me is that I'm not worried about how neutering will change behaviour, as I've already given suprelorin and seen the effect. Not that in general they don't matter, of course they do, but they're not my primary concern with this specific situation. My main interest is in health risks and if/how they can be mitigated.

I'd never rehome my dogs, unless I was suddenly unable to give them any kind of life. I especially wouldn't rehome with any sort of behavioural issue when anything could happen to them. Besides which, aside from me miraculously finding a good positive trainer who has no other dogs and wants an intact poodle with a behaviour issue to have but not breed from, any rehoming scenario would involve neutering. So it's not really an alternative to neutering.

> aside from me miraculously finding a good positive trainer who has no other dogs and wants an intact poodle with a behaviour issue to have but not breed from

This possibility is not miraculous. There are people with strong experience in training, desire to engage in it, and plenty of time to do it. But of course, re-homing is not easy.

It is balancing pros and cons, and here as I’ve said above it is really what you feel is best. I sometimes think with dogs I’m very selfish. I say their well-being is my primary concern, but at the same time it is my own well-being that concerns me. I simply can’t bear to own a dog and not to be able to give it the life I think it should have. It would bug me every spare minute, I’d feel guilty and I’d hate it. That’s why I make the choices I make. Other people are different in what they can compromise and what they can’t.

I think we are probably more similar than not. Do you honestly think a dog you have owned and trained from 8 weeks for several years, who loves you and the life you have given it, and enjoys the activities you do together and the bond it shares with the other humans and dogs in your pack and who enjoys the well considered diet and excellent care you give it would rather have a new life somewhere else than lose its testicles? I can't believe it! I bet your dogs would pick you over a leg, never mind a ball! I am literally worrying about having to "abandon" mine at the vet, together, for a single 8 hour day! There's no way I would send them, alone, to live elsewhere. They are our family and we are theirs. Perhaps we have different perspectives on what we should/can provide. I can't even give my own children the lives I think they should have. I can't reach into their neurology and take out the disabling bits. But I can love them as best I can and do on a given day as much as I can do and make up for the bits where I fall short with apologies and extra hugs. And the dogs will have to get by with the same

I think general belief is that castration anyway reduces aggression (not sure about spaying), but since most aggression is fear based it very often has the opposite effect and the study in question found in general, across all the breeds looked at, neutering increased aggression towards known people, strange people and other dogs. But the only breakdown table of breeds was about dog directed aggression and poodles were in fact less aggressive after neutering. I just thought it was interesting.

Not much help really but (a lot) of years ago a lady came to class with a Golden, she had a physically disabled pre-schooler in a wheel chair and the dog was doing much the same behavior as yours. This was before Superlorin but he had Tardak as a trial, as it made such an improvement she had him neutered aged about 20/24 months. I saw her quite a while later and she was still delighted at the difference.

monkeyj, I completely and wholeheartedly agree with everything you have written and expressed so well here.  I wish I could have it tattooed across my forehead, except alas it wouldn't fit.  And it might look weird.  I especially agree with: 

>What seems more worrying to me, is that neutering should not be a means to achieve good behaviour. Breeding good temperaments is such means, appropriate training is such means. But not neutering... I would never recommend neutering no matter how successful it could be, because I believe that it jeopardises the dog’s health, and because to me the dog’s well being is more important than other considerations.

One 'problem' with neutering, is it all becomes a vicious circle in terms of breeding.  It goes like this:  Obnoxious dogs get neutered.  The problem goes away.  Therefore there is no incentive to prioritising not breeding for obnoxious male dogs.  Because everyone who experiences one can just go get the dog neutered.  IE because we have this artificial way to solve the problem, it need not be addressed as it should be - by breeding. 

And whilst you'd think that due to neutering this behaviour would die out, in fact it doesn't - because many dogs can be controlled enough to run around a ring and show and also because some of this behaviour actually makes male dogs 'show' better (I believe) - eyeing up the other males, standing up on their toes, looking 'intense' at other dogs they can see etc etc - it all leads to these dogs getting placed and then breeding and passing on these obnoxious genes.  We see it far less in breeds which can't be shown and where it is a priority that dogs can focus on their handler around other dogs - male working gundogs, for example (of working and not show strains).

Tatty that really does help thank you, because it's so relevant. Prior to all this and on the suprelorin my eldest would walk beside my son's chair (which is a special needs pushchair which is like a much bigger buggy rather than a wheelchair - he is capable of walking but struggles due to hypermobility and sensory processing problems and just runs off or lies down in the street when he's overcome). I'd loop the lead around my wrist or hook it onto the handle and he'd walk on a loose lead keeping pace and occasionally sticking his nose in to check on the boy. Since all this nonsense began I've had to put the dogs onto a belt aroumd my waist as they would happily drag the chair and child into the road if there was a dog on the other side. I'd love to go back to peaceful walks with everyone.

> Do you honestly think a dog you have owned and trained from 8 weeks for several years, who loves you and the life you have given it, and enjoys the activities you do together and the bond it shares with the other humans and dogs in your pack and who enjoys the well considered diet and excellent care you give it would rather have a new life somewhere else than lose its testicles?

I absolutely do. But I also understand why you don't believe it, because I felt the same before I re-homed an adult dog for the first time, and later adopted an adult dog for the first time. The rehoming was to my mum, and after few weeks of everyday calls and micromanaging I eventually paused and realised: I knew my mum loved my dog, I knew she had experience dealing with it, I just had to trust her to make the decisions she thought were best. Needless to say, that dog lived the life of a queen... And when I adopted a 3 year old dog, I realised how easy it was for me to love it, and how easy it was for the dog to love me back, our bond and mutual understanding were just as strong as if I had it from the pup.

Re-homing is far from easy however. I do lots of research and visit the family, and even when I think I can trust the new owners I still worry and worry a lot, and I miss the dog. But I also know that it would make me feel much worse if I keep the dog as part of the larger pack and see all of the pack receive less attention, see them being regularly left out because I can cope only with so many at any one time, and so on. I've tried it, and hated it.

>I am literally worrying about having to "abandon" mine at the vet, together, for a single 8 hour day! There's no way I would send them, alone, to live elsewhere. They are our family and we are theirs.

I feel exactly the same. My dogs are just as much part of our family. But it is precisely because they are part of our family, that I cannot bear to see them live their lives and not receive what I think is best for them. There is no way I would send them, alone, to live elsewhere, but I will let them go to live with a loving family, where they will be an only dog or where appropriate with a companion, and where they will have lots of attention and care and love, all to themselves.

Children is an apposite comparison, although not 100% the same of course. When children grow up and decide to become more independent, any parent would worry and worry a lot, and miss their children, but most parents will understand that it is necessary to let the children go in order to ensure they live the best lives. And there are parents who don't understand, or who do but can't help themselves and they try to keep their children in, stifle them in the family, push out boyfriends/girlfriends, etc...  And very similarly there are people who hoard dogs, and they are motivated by exactly the same feelings - I can't bear to part with my dogs, they are all dear to me and all are part of my family, they may not be getting the best but they are getting my love and my hugs and I'm sure this makes up at least for something for them, I can't send them elsewhere because no one would love them as much as I do, and so on.

I'm not saying that all dog owners are divided into those that re-home, and those that hoard. Most just keep a dog or two and live happily together. But when circumstances are different, such as a breeder who must keep the next generation in order to continue the breeding, or an owner who finds themselves in a situation where for one reason or another their dog or dogs no longer can receive what the owner think is best for them, then the question arises - to keep the dog in less best conditions, or to allow it to live a better life but away from you.

I've read through all the replies here, re the pros and cons of castration and remain with my original thought - that castration only prevents unwanted puppies, which provided the dog is properly contained, should never happen.   We managed to get through how-many years with entire males and females, without any unplanned litters.   And none roamed to produce them either.  Castration should never be used as a replacement for training.   IMO.

However I would still stick with spaying, once retired, because I see/saw no reason to keep a bitch cycling into old age, needing to be confined twice a year for 3 weeks.   If nothing else.

In regard to poodlenoodle I really don't think she is looking at this in place of training it's obvious she has and is working hard on this.maybe in time it can be rectified with training but her situation  is very different to a lot of people and as she is allsides have to be considered . I agree with u mamabas  in general but one size doesn't fit all

> However I would still stick with spaying, once retired, because I see/saw no reason to keep a bitch cycling into old age, needing to be confined twice a year for 3 weeks.   If nothing else.

and on balance there are more pros than cons to neutering mature bitches, as Pyometra is an ever present risk and more dangerous with advancing age.

Also surely we must consider that like humans dog have to grow up and this is a process, and some of the stages are challenging.

I really do think that poodlenoodle is looking at this in place of training - I'm sorry it's not meant to hurt, but it's the truth.

> If they were consistently "difficult to control" then I would have neutered already. The problem I am faced with is that they are absolutely rock solid in most circumstances and not reliable in a few. It makes it a harder decision.

It can't be more clear than above. Poodles are very trainable, and given that these two have only this one issue, the chances are very very high that it can be corrected and maintained by appropriate training. Instead, the suggestion is that they should be neutered.

Is it because poodlenoodle doesn't want to train? Is it because she is not in a position to do so properly, given that it's two dogs she has to deal with plus other members of her family also demand her attention? Whatever is the reason the choice had to be made. She weighted the pros (neutering is likely to be a workable fix, both dogs will remain with her, she will be able to continue looking after the rest of her family), and the cons (neutering could lead to the dogs developing health problems sometime in the future), and she made her choice.

Champdogs BLOG: The Pros and Cons of Neutering

I tried to say something similar to this, the last time the discussion came up and was shot down in flames and gave up

Maybe you are just being more diplomatic than me, monkeyj. 

My only thing about rehoming, is that when a dog 'takes up a place' of another dog in another household, that place is lost for a dog from elsewhere (say from a rescue or some such), and so in terms of ensuring maximum dogs get into maximum homes, it's difficult. 

I don't think poodlenoodle is even considering rehoming either of her dogs though, that is just not even on her radar.... right or wrong... so maybe the whole rehoming conversation is a bit redundant.

IMO adolescence is the worst time with male dogs but once they hit 3 years old (at the latest) many become much more manageable.  There is research in humans showing that essentially teenage boys are quite similar:  Getting into trouble with the law, boundary-breaking, questioning authority etc etc.  We used to think these challenges were about the sheer quantity of testosterone that is released but we now know that adolescent levels are not much higher than during adulthood - but we do know that the adolescent brain is not fully developed.  The adolescent brain doesn't know how to process or use that testosterone flowing through it and it hits it like an onslaught - it is the brain of a child suddenly getting hit with adult levels of testosterone.  But, once coming out of adolescence, the brain is able to not respond in this way.  Moreover, the testosterone shapes the brain's neuronal development during adolescence and influences it - and the adult personality which emerges.  I don't know exactly how all this translates to dogs, but there is no good reason the same thing doesn't apply there.

Well I find myself reading all the responses and nodding along with most of it.

It actually makes me a bit sad to think of all the hundreds of posts I've put up here about my dogs and life that some STILL tell me that I should train them. I can't be bothered listing all over again my training efforts. Safe to say training is a part of the fabric of my dogs daily lives and will continue to be so, regardless of their balls. I do know some post this as general info as anyone can read these threads and in general training should be the first recourse to almost every issue but I also know some just genuinely think I don't bother with training.

I agree both that this is a developmental stage and that with the continued training it will pass in time without neutering. But 3 more years (potentially) of this isn't nothing to ask of me and of the family and I am forced to accept that I cannot be 100% on it 100% of the time. Yesterday my dogs were barking at the window at a passing dog while my son was in a meltdown. My son can't be left alone in that state as he is a danger to himself. So I shouted "off" from where I was and luckily they obeyed, if they hadn't I would have given them one small step towards learning it's okay to ignore me. I'm aware of it every second. That they need pretty immediate correction and redirection right now as this is an impulse i need to teach them to control and that I am not always in a position to give it.

It all feels tenuous to me. It feels like I've done thousands of hours of work and with this situation it could all be undone unless I act definitively. In 3 years perhaps they will have matured in their neurology, become accustomed to their hormones and calmed right down, but also perhaps due to my other committments they will have learned to enjoy these hormonally fuelled behaviours and to ignore my commands. How long getting away with these things 5 or 10% of the time before they become hardwired? I don't want them or I to find out the hard way.

The human child comparison actually made me cry monkey. You know one day I will die, and that before that day I will have to rehome my human son? My son who cannot say where the mysterious bruise came from, or if someone shouted at him, or if he liked the food he was given. Who will not understand why I have sent him elsewhere or why he can't be at home with me. He is never going to grow up and move away. People have no idea how lucky "normal" is. So no rehoming a dog I love who will, at most, only be here with me another 12 or so years, is not on my radar.

Poodlenoodle,  I had to make the decicion to have my adolescent dog castrated early (and yes I know that many on here will deem me to be a bad person) but his behavior was getting increasingly out of control. And yes I had done many hours of traing with him like you, and yes I had trained dogs before with no problems like this. All I can say to you is after he was "done" the behavioural issues stopped and he became a really lovely boy, and I am convinced he was much happier as a result.  If there are consequences furthe down the line then I will live with it, but please do what you think best for yourself and your family. 
I am prepared for a roasting from some on here but I feel for you.

Such a heart felt post and so honest. As my friend says as much as we want to be we can't be everywhere or in shorthand cbe and choices have to be made. In a perfect life we could do it all

poodlenoodle - your most recent post ME cry!

I well remember, from your many posts over a very long period, how committed you are to training and to responsible dog ownership.

You've explained your decisions really clearly and have obviously weighed up the pros and cons in all their complexity.

As Furrie Friends said earlier, "one size' does not always fit all.  Individual circumstances vary hugely.

I wish you and your whole family (human and canine) all the very best.  Best of luck with the next stage.

Monkeyj. On re reading my post I realise I didn't explain what I meant very well. I know the pulling on the lead was due to lack of training not hormones and how he had been taught. A friend of the previous owner demonstrated how he could do healwork but later the owner admitted she never walked him down the street but drove to where she could let him off lead as she was so ashamed of him with herself. My daughter remedied this situation and trained him to behave but couldn't stop his wish to hump every dog he came close to. The problem was causing the dog stress as he felt he had to be on high alert whenever other dogs were near. Neutering was not an easy decision and was thought about for several months but has certainly not been regretted since.

poodlenoodle. I have great admiration for you, I don't know how you cope but I know you love your children and your dogs and are working hard to do the best you can for them. I wish you luck. As others have said there is no one size fits all and there is so much that has to be taken into consideration.

Very well put, Agility tervs.

Poodlenoodle - your original post was asking for information regarding research on the medical effects of castration.  I hope you have been given enough useful links to help you with this.  You have certainly done your homework and are not making any decisions lightly.

I recall from previous threads that you have good support from your boys' breeder and also from a good behaviourist local to you which is great.

In making your decisions you have had to weigh up so many pros, cons and risks and I have no doubt that your dogs are, and will continue to be, happy living with you and your family.

Good morning - post edited as it was going in circles and veering away from original topic. Feel free to start another thread should you wish.
Thanks,
Jeff.