I've been lurking for a little while, so I thought I'd introduce myself properly. I'm 38 and live in north Derbyshire with my partner, two house rabbits and a moggy, and I'm sorely feeling the lack of a dog at the moment!

We lost our beloved Labrador 3 years ago and I still miss her every day. She was 15 and suffered from arthritis and her hips and one shoulder were pretty bad. I bought her from a family who decided to breed their pet bitch (no papers but apparently her mum was KC reg) - of course NOW I know about all the tests that should have been done before the mating but I didn't at the time. I gave my dog the best life I could but there's no doubt in my mind that her parents should never have been bred and that she suffered as a result of it.

As much as we love Labs, we'd prefer a smaller breed for our next dog. (Carrying a 30kg dog with vestibular syndrome outside every time she needed to pee is an experience I'm not anxious to repeat!) We're still very much in the planning stages and are in no rush to get a dog RIGHT NOW so I'm making sure to spend plenty of time researching, talking to breeders, etc.

It would be super helpful to hear breed advice from you lovely people. I do have a breed in mind but I'm sure you'll be able to suggest breeds for the shortlist that I've not even thought of so I can consider them too!

About us:
* Couple aged 38 and 48, cat and rabbits, no children.
* House with large garden in suburbs of large town, plenty of green space and nice places to walk nearby.
* Partner works full-time but I'm at home all day.
* I love training animals and do marker training with the cat and rabbits. Not really interested in obedience competitions or anything like that, but I think training is super important as mental enrichment - most animals benefit from some kind of job. I might like to try agility if the dog enjoys it, but that's not super important to me, it just sounds like fun.
* We play Pokémon Go, so walk a fair bit.

Our Ideal Dog:
* Enjoys training and working with humans. SUPER IMPORTANT!
* Medium-sized or smaller preferred.
* Low prey drive (or at least easy to teach that rabbits and cat are not for chasing) so terriers/sighthounds are probably out. My rabbits are in a cage+pen in the living room and enjoy free run of that room in the evenings - obviously it would be preferable for all the pets to be able to relax with us together (strictly supervised, of course).
* No physical features that increase the risk of health problems, e.g. brachycephaly, dwarfism, screw tail, wrinkles, protruding eyes, overly long ears, etc. No tendency to serious genetic problems that can't be tested for in the parents. (Absolutely no offence intended to anyone with the kind of breeds I want to avoid, I know they are lovely dogs but I prefer not to have that extra worry after my Lab's joint problems.)
* Not particularly protective of home or humans, tolerant of strangers.
* I'm happy to brush/trim hair myself as necessary but prefer a dog that doesn't need professional grooming. Don't mind shedding as long as it's not excessive (mind you, I could probably live with anything after having a Lab for 15 years!)

What breeds do you think we should consider? Like I said, I do have a breed in mind but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Sounds like you need a Buhund. Look them up! Only down side might be the barking alerts

I'm biased but a Papillon would fit well.

Whilst they need a lot of brain stimulation a Border Collie would fit this. Obviously as you've highlighted you would need to make sure both parents are fully health tested. I would probably go for more the show lines rather than full on working lines.

Or the Toller. Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. They are a gundog and somewhat similar to the collie in terms of on the go.

Guess that we are all going to be pro our own breed! But Cardigan Corgis would fit your bill, have had them for 40 years...

> Guess that we are all going to be pro our own breed!

I think this is the long and the short of it!!

Ive defo not recommended my breed. Wouldn't fit the bill at all.

I know also you want smaller but a Lab does fit the bill too. Maybe a bitch which would be smaller and possibly of working lines which are more slender in shape and type

Where do you live my recommendation is go to a local dog show and meet and greet the dogs you live the look of we do not bite and are very happy to talk about our dogs

I think tollers and papillions are great suggestions.

Have you thought about vulnerable breeds, if there is something that may be suitable not only would you be getting a loving companion but also helping save a breed from extinction.

Here if terriers are out (although I'd be tempted to have a look at a Skye terrier!), a Cardigan Welsh Corgi seems ideally suited.

The full list of vulnerable breeds are on the KC website:https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/getting-a-dog-or-puppy/finding-the-right-dog/vulnerable-native-breeds/

Welsh Springer Spaniel. Not as busy as the English, a Spaneil this non spaniel loving person could live with.

Buhunds are lovely but they have the Spitz independence like my own breed. Quite a few Elkhound owners ahve had both and even though they are a frm Dog they are just as eager to please themselves as our hunting minded Elkies.

IT is very hard downsizing when you have akways been used to a big dog. I have been going through it the last 3 yrs. we decided to get a Shetland sheepdog and she is super intelligent just as our German shepherds were but the yapping us another thing altogether. All small dogs have a very high pitched bark and it goes right through us. On reflection I am sorry we did not stick to our shepherds.

We too downsized but from Great Danes and got a Buhund and a Sheltie. The Buhund alerts us to any activity round the house, but the Sheltie just copies. She does not work it out on her own.
I would agree with Brainless about the independent nature of the Buhund. This also has an upside... he quietly rests or patrols in the garden and does not fuss to be separated. The hunting instinct is high when he is out and about and he has a bigger range off lead than many owners would find worrying. However he always comes back but maybe not immediately.
Very trainable... doing his KC Gold test shortly and will try any dog sports. Great fun.
The sheltie is a lazy type

> I would agree with Brainless about the independent nature of the Buhund. This also has an upside... he quietly rests or patrols in the garden and does not fuss to be separated. The hunting instinct is high when he is out and about and he has a bigger range off lead than many owners would find worrying. However he always comes back but maybe not immediately. <br />Very trainable... doing his KC Gold test shortly and will try any dog sports. Great fun.

The Elkhounds are the same, very bright, but they are your partner not your servant. they need to see a point and somthing in it for them.

But that overall they really suit me, can't do needy or yes men. The Elkhounds are definitely people/family dogs, but self reliant too.

I had three at the same time .gsd, fcr, and a chi x lol so all.very different sizes. There are pros and cons to all.3 sizes never mind breed differences but I really miss having a tiny around and in the future will downsize to another. Just hope this time I can sort out  the barking better . Do wish  the small breeds I like didn't have a tendency to bark :) might have to take lessons from brainless oin that .
To the op some good ideas given in your post

Welsh springers mentioned above are also a good shout, and reminded me about field spaniels- a fabulous breed in my experience.

> reminded me about field spaniels- a fabulous breed in my experience.

Ditto

My choice would be a border collie, it is possible to get a laid back one and they are superb for training/companionship, IMO all dogs have some instinct to chase/herd/kill and it has to be trained out, my whippets loved my cats and small furry house pets, ditto my collies and GSD's, my daughter's BT's were good with the cats too. Corgi's are nice but they do tend towards back trouble with their "big dog on short legs" build, how about a vizla, biddable, the bitches are not large and personally I like the wire coated ones.

Thanks everyone, you've been really helpful and I've learned about a few new breeds as well as finding out more about some I hadn't considered!

I'm happy to see that the breed I've had my eye on has been suggested, so I definitely need to talk to some breeders and meet some dogs. :)

I'll comment on each of the suggestions (hope I didn't miss any).

Buhund
This one was new to me, and they sound like a great dog. I am generally a fan of the more "wolf-shaped" dogs but I've always thought that Spitz types were hard to train but clearly that's not the case with these. I don't have much experience with herding dogs in general. Being a less popular breed I might have trouble finding one, right?

Papillon
Yep, this is currently my favourite! And hi Goldmali, I may have visited your website quite a few times this past year. ;) I never considered myself a toy dog person but paps tick so many boxes for me being smart and trainable, with the only disadvantages being their tendency to yap and the fact that my partner claims their ears look silly. I mean I sort of agree that they do look a bit, um, well-endowed in the aural department, but I think he's a bit silly to care! ;) Maybe he'd prefer a Phalene?

Border Collie
I do like BCs a lot, I've known quite a few over the years and I love how clever they are, but I worry they might be a bit much. My neighbour's BC is a super-friendly boy and very handsome. Definitely on the "meet more dogs" list.

Toller
Another new-to-me-breed, with a lot of advantages, bit like a small red Golden by the sounds. For some reason they haven't really "clicked" for me and I don't understand why as they seem like great dogs - maybe just because they aren't quite as smart/trainable as a pap or BC? I don't know.

Cardigan Corgi
I'm afraid I had to discount these because of the short legs. It's a shame really because they seem great dogs overall, but the tendency to back problems worries me. Don't they bark a lot too?

Skye Terrier
A vulnerable breed does sound interesting, but as I won't be breeding I'm not sure I'd be helping the breed very much! I don't think I could risk a terrier, my rabbits are very small and fast and look very much like terrier lunch.

Welsh Springer Spaniel
My aunt had a WSS when I was a kid, she was a lovely dog but I found her somewhat aloof. She bonded with my aunt so much that although she was perfectly polite you got the feeling she didn't care that much whether anyone else was around or not. My worry with Welshies is they aren't great with being left alone - I'll be around most of the time but we will want to leave the house without the dog occasionally!

Field Spaniel
I need to do more research on these. They seem quite similar to Welshies?

Vizla
Unfortunately I think they are a bit bigger than I'd like, but seem really good otherwise.

Corgilover, I live in Chesterfield, Derbyshire. I hadn't thought about dog shows but it's a great idea!

> A vulnerable breed does sound interesting, but as I won't be breeding I'm not sure I'd be helping the breed very much!

There are many ways to help promote a vulnerable breed apart from breeding. Becoming a member of the relevant breed club, participating in events both specific to the breed and more general such as agility or obedience competitions, simply going for a stroll in the park where people would ask you questions "what cross is this?" and you explain them different.

There are quite a few shows held at Sharley Park at Clay Cross, if that's any help!

Breed clubs will also have details of shows  as will foss data.  Lka is coming up at the NEC if u can get there .pick the day for.the breeds u are interested in as it's over 3 days .then there is discover dogs at crafts in March also NEC where u will be able to see most if not all of those breeds
http://www.fossedata.co.uk/

Almost all breeds are classified at Midland Counties C.S., held at Stafford Showground, 25th to 28th October. Admission is free, but a removal pass would be required if you brought an un-entered dog with you - this usually costs around £5.
Gundogs on the Thursday, Hound and Pastoral, Friday, Working and Terrier, Saturday, and Toy and Utility are on the Sunday.
Full details can be downloaded from Fosse Data.

> Toller Another new-to-me-breed, with a lot of advantages, bit like a small red Golden by the sounds. For some reason they haven't really "clicked" for me and I don't understand why as they seem like great dogs - maybe just because they aren't quite as smart/trainable as a pap or BC? I don't know.

They're more like a BC than a Golden (it is believed there is some collie way back in the ancestry but they're not related to Goldens at all).
They're definitely as smart/trainable as a BC/Papillon, but they're not as obsessive as an average BC - more along the lines of 'done that exercise, what's next'.

That's an interesting point monkeyj, telling people how awesome my breed is would make a change from dissuading people from impulse-buying rabbits! ;) (Honestly I'm surprised Pets At Home don't kick me out when I hover around the pens telling people to buy their child a cuddly toy instead... )

Thanks for show information!

Looking at details though I can't help but be a bit intimidated. I know nothing about showing and it's a whole world full of terminology I don't understand and etiquette I don't know and I feel totally ignorant of how everything works. I'm also not the best at approaching strangers and asking for favours (like information or to meet their dogs). I want to meet dogs but shows seem scary...!

Thanks for show information!

Looking at details though I can't help but be a bit intimidated. I know nothing about showing and it's a whole world full of terminology I don't understand and etiquette I don't know and I feel totally ignorant of how everything works. I'm also not the best at approaching strangers and asking for favours (like information or to meet their dogs). I want to meet dogs but shows seem scary...!

I get what you're saying, I felt the same you could always just go and watch the dogs from the ringside, you don't have to dive right in to speaking to breeders! You will still learn a lot

> Looking at details though I can't help but be a bit intimidated

One of the reasons many of us go to shows is that is the one place we can take dogs to our hearts content.  Unless it's a breed with a lot of hairdressing preparation, or the owner is about to go in the ring then they will be more than happy for you to meet their dogs and talk your ear off.

Sadly Crufts coverage doesn't really show you what showing is really like, for the majority a nice day out with their dogs and friends.

U don't have to know anything about showing to quietly wander around looking at different breeds. I've always found that people  are more than willing to chat about their dogs unless as brainless says they are about too go into the ring .just ask people are really  nice

I think I need a show buddy! :)

Shame u are too far away .I  don't show now did for a short while but still love going round the shows just to watch and chat and learn

> Sadly Crufts coverage doesn't really show you what showing is really like, for the majority a nice day out with their dogs and friends.

Can you believe I've never even seen Crufts on TV?

> Shame u are too far away .I&nbsp; don't show now did for a short while but still love going round the shows just to watch and chat and learn

I'm sure someone will go to a show somewhere near me at some point, who might let me meet up with them and maybe introduce me to some people (and dogs of course!)

> or the owner is about to go in the ring then they will be more than happy for you to meet their dogs and talk your ear off.<br /><br />Sadly Crufts coverage doesn't really show you what showing is really like, for the majority a nice day out with their dogs and friends.

Absolutely - and for sure the worst time you should approach an exhibitor is when they are just going into the ring, OR for that matter, is they have come out with the 'rubbish'!!    Otherwise, with benched shows, talking to the public is exactly what helps pass what can be a very long day, for dog and owner.

As for Crufts TV coverage, I tend to watch the Group judging/BIS and that's really all, much as my Basset LOVES the
flyball!!

If I enter a show at clay cross, I’ll give you a shout.

> If I enter a show at clay cross, I’ll give you a shout.

That would be very much appreciated. :)

So I'm going to a show on Thursday (Driffield)! A family friend is showing a couple of her dogs and I'm going to go with her. She has border collies so of course we're going on Pastoral day, but it will give me chance to have that first experience and give me a bit of confidence, and of course see lots of dogs even if they aren't breeds I'm interested in. I guess I could meet a buhund or two!

A papillon still seem like the best choice for us, hopefully we'll get to meet some soon to confirm. I've read tons about them but that's no substitute for seeing and interacting with them.

You can hopefully meet some Vallhunds also

Sure, why not?

Well I know a bit more about how showing works now and I’ve fussed more BCs today than I’ve ever met before in my life! I could be seriously tempted to get a border... ;) (not going to, I think they are just a little bit too much for me, but I met so many lovely dogs today).

I did have a chat with a couple of ladies with buhunds, one of which was a breeder that’s doing very well apparently. She gave me the “you have to know what you’re getting yourself into and we are very particular about where our pups go” speech which I was absolutely expecting, I guess breeders are always having to deal with random people trying to buy puppies from them without doing any research first. I told her I wouldn’t even look twice at a breeder that didn’t give me the third degree to make sure I was right for one of their dogs anyway!

I did like the buhund quite a lot, to be honest. It was good to get a proper idea of their size as well as I find it really hard to tell from pictures - a little bit smaller than I’d imagined but that’s not in any way a negative.

Next step is meeting a Pap. :)

A few people asked me today if I’m interested in showing. And honestly? I enjoyed being at the show today but I don’t know that I’d enjoy showing myself.

I probably will tag along with my BC friend occasionally when she’s showing, and I’ll definitely be there if Pastoral and Toy ever fall on the same day! And who knows, I might pluck up the courage to go to something at the NEC by myself at some point as it’s pretty easy on the train.

I know you’ve decided on a papillon, but we met the most beautiful eight month old Eurasier puppy. What a lovely dog, I was so impressed with her. Her companion was an Elkhound and a proper gent he was too. Never met either breed before, I was bowled over (not literally) by them both and they got on well with my four. Food for thought?

Just had a quick read about Eurasiers and they do sound like great dogs! Lots of grooming required though, with that thick double coat.

I'm going to meet some papillons on Sunday so I can get a better idea of what they are like. Very much looking forward to it. :)

Assuming I still like them after the meeting (they seem pretty perfect on paper so I doubt I'll change my mind unless they are very different to what my research tells me) I'm going to move on to contacting and shortlisting breeders.

I don't know the etiquette here, is it okay to contact multiple breeders at the same time? I don't want to show or breed and I'm not fussy about lines or anything, so I'm much more interested in things like health testing, temperament, socialisation (especially if there are cats and/or small animals in the breeder's house) and whether the parents have proved themselves able to do some kind of work. I'm expecting that I'll end up with a list of several breeders that sound good to me, so i'll be at least partly influenced by who's planning a litter at about the right time.

Are there unwritten "rules"? I've read some stuff about breeders who want potential puppy owners to have chosen them above all the others because they want that line rather than just because they have puppies right now, but I suspect there will be several breeders and pups that fit my criteria. I'd hate to miss out on a great dog that would suit me well because I was waiting for a different breeder to have a litter... It feels like a bit of a minefield!

I'm just being a bit cautious because I've never had a dog from a proper breeder before. I'm usually very confident but this is all very new. :)

I bet the Elkhound boy had lost his eyes. 

He was hopefully one of the last responsibly bred to suffer Glacucoma.  He was instrumental in locating the gene that we now have a DNA test for.

He was bred by a friend of mine and I bred his Mother.

Yes that’s right! What a small world! He was a lovely boy, a therapy dog and so happy. As I said, never met an elkhound before and was very, very impressed.

You can come meet my five any time.

he developed the issue at 6 years old, about standard onset age in our breed.

Before the DNA test became available in 2015 the inheritance was unknown, turns out it is simple recessive for the gen but it doesn't always express, so the pattern was hard to find with pedigrees alone.

As a breed we have had very few clinical cases in the last 25 years due to carefully avoiding doubling on known affected and producers

I’d love to! If I’m ever in your neck of the woods I’ll take you up on that!

Met three very different Paps this afternoon, two of them bred by Goldmali. :) Fantastic little dogs, very active and affectionate and playful and clearly very bright too. Also surprisingly quiet - my research warned me that they can be a bit fond of their own voices so I was prepared for noise, but apart from one of them understandably barking when his toy wasn’t thrown fast enough they hardly spoke at all. I had my arms thoroughly “washed” and I’m covered in long fine white hairs, and I’m totally sold. ;)

I don’t think I was quite prepared for how tiny they are as I’m used to much bigger dogs, but small is absolutely fine. I have two ridiculously small dwarf rabbits after all.

So yeah, definitely Papillon. Boyfriend also liked them, and admitted that their ears aren’t nearly as “silly” as the pictures make them out to be!

Time to talk to breeders then...

That's lovely. ☺ Have to admit mine can be noisy but it tends to be at feeding time and I do have 9! My big dogs bark a lot more though. If you mail me and remind me I will have a think about breeders that you could approach.