Hi guys

I recently purchased a puppy, I spoke to the guy a few times and he seemed genuine so I didn’t do checks. (More fool me) He said his family had been breeding for 37 years and his mother has judged at cruffs.  I knew the puppy wasn’t KC registered but he said he would registered at a later date if the puppy was of standard, which seemed fine to me. He gave me a copy of the pedigree and in my excitement and stupidity I did not check.  When I got home I noticed that the puppy’s parents names were not on the certificates.  I emailed the guy and asked for their names and also asked what wormer he had used as my vet had asked me so we could continue with same brand I also asked for a receipt as I had nothing in writing. He never replied.  I texted him and emailed again. Still no reply. I then began to worry and realised he had emailed from two different accounts with different surnames.  He has finally replied to me and said he doesn’t tell people the parents names in case buyers try to registered the pup.  So I asked if he can registered the pup on the non active list, but have not received a reply.  Now I am really worried that I have purchased a puppy from a dealer or puppy farm.  Does this sound normal, do breeders not provide details of parents? I will say the puppy seems healthy enough but I have lost confidence in the breeder.  I wanted to check the parents names on the KC website to make sure they are PRA clear.

Far from normal - I think in some ways you should take some responsibility, when enquiring about a puppy I would expect potential owners to ask various questions.  If they come via Champdogs, all test results are on advert for people to see even before they make contact.

So much has been published about buying puppies for so many years now.  Did you see them with their mother?  Did he give a reason why they weren't going to be registered?  If the 'breeder' was of such long standing and his mother a Judge - I would have expected things to be done 'by the book'

I doubt you'll get the puppy registered or find its true pedigree - sorry.

You could always ask them if they would take it back and give you a refund to give you the chance of finding a 'proper' puppy but I doubt they'll do this.

I'm afraid this is buyer beware and if you bought this puppy with little research into the puppy's background, or the breeder for that matter, what you have is what you've got!   Some people used not to give the papers, to prevent breeding BUT these days, most would simply register the puppies, with the relevant endorsements.   That doesn't stop them from being bred however, just that any offspring cannot be registered.  I'm wondering whether either, or both the parents of your puppy were not registered with the KC.  I don't understand giving you 'a pedigree' without the sire and dam named.   Odd but you could, perceiveably check into the grandparents' health status, and back from them.   You might contact the KC about what's gone on here but don't hold your breath re them helping much!

What wormer is used previously isn't relevant but you should have been given a full worming history, when done and with what so your vet will know if the wormer would have been effective.   Not to use the same, necessarily. 

Not registering a litter 'until a later date if the puppy was of standard' - nonsense!!    Most good breeders WANT to register their litters, which does become a history of the breed if nothing else.

Did you go to the place the puppy was born, and see the mother?   I hope you didn't buy the puppy from a 'guy in a layby' situation.

I guess that unless you do want to show/breed, not having the paperwork isn't vital.   And it would depend on the purchase price paid for a KC Registered puppy or not.   As long as the puppy is healthy, none of this should prevent him from being a happy much loved pet?

These kinds of people are bad news.They know that 9 times out of 10 the new owners will not return the puppy as they get attached to it &/or worry what will happen to the puppy if returned. They have the money & thats all they care about...makes me so angry.
You have bought a puppy which you basically no nothing about :(  You may be lucky but you may be unlucky....

Oh dear, you will have already realised that you have bought a puppy from a dealer or puppy farmer and it's too late to give you advice,  most likely you will never find out the parentage of the puppy and even if the breeder gives you the information it may well be false and I would bet that no health tests have ever been done, the likelihood of the puppy being registered later is just about zero.  Let's hope your baby will be healthy and give you lots of pleasure as a much loved pet, lesson learnt and maybe others will benefit by your story.

> lesson learnt and maybe others will benefit by your story.

Indeed!!

You have a pedigree but no parents names? What is on the pedigree then?
Tbh i think you know this all sounds off and the breeder isnt a good one. Have you been given anything at all to know the breeders mothers name at all?

Was the litter advertised? If so do you have a copy of the advert? Does it say health tested or kc reg? You maybe able to do something via trading standards or even the local council he lives in.

Hi

Yes I do take some responsibility.  I have one other dog and I done so many checks when I got her.  My bad not doing the sam3 this time but he seemed to be mak8ng all the right noises.  I certa8nly didn’t buy him from a layby I drove a long way to pick him up at his house, I saw a female dog who he said was his mum.  I can’t believe I have been so stupid. I do not ntend to sit back I will report to RSPCA and get 5hem to check on him.  And I will keep an eye out for when he sells again.  I want some reassurance that he is not a puppy farm and the parentage of my dog.  Thanks guys

I will report to RSPCA and get 5hem to check on him.

A waste of time, they are nothing to do with what amounts to the governments >Consumer Rights Act 2015<, the RSPCA do not check which animal seller is in breach of the consumer rights act, if they did they would have a backlog going back to writings in The Old Testament

In UK law dogs are classified as 'Property', below is to the above act, if you think you have a case under the act you can try it in a civil court.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/consumer-rights-act-2015/consumer-rights-act-2015
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> he doesn’t tell people the parents names in case buyers try to registered the pup.

That is rubbish as only the owner of the bitch at time of birth can register a dog or litter.

Any good breeder would tell you (proudly) the parents registered names, as that is the only way you can check the health test results for them,  and you should also recieve copies of any that are not shown on the pusp registration certificate. Most breeds at the very least shoudl be hip scored and have a clinical eye test, many now also now have DNA tests for any hereditary issues in the breed.

All this information is available iont eh Kennel Club websiyte, incl8udign details on how registraion works, what you should expect from a good breeder etc.

There are no good valid reasons for a dog not to be KC registered, and plenty of bad ones., bitch too old, too young, too many litters, not owned by the person sellign pups (so maybe stolen) or has breeding restrictions put on by their breder to ensure they are not br4ed from unless suitable re helath tests, temperametn etc.

If this pup is by byb or puppy  farmed dog and or   u can't find parentage what then ?

Surely the main basis on which people choose a litter, is the parents - who they are; what their health tests are; their show or working results and so on.  If you can't even know who the parents are, on what basis are you selecting a puppy?!?

> Surely the main basis on which people choose a litter, is the parents -

As a breeder (retired now), I'd look at the grandparents, often perhaps more than the parents, and also any offspring of the sire.   So many things can skip a generation, and looking at the sire can give some indication as to the kind of stock he's throwing, much as it takes 2 to tango!   For the average buyer, they need to see mum, together with any other adults the breeder may have in their kennel, as much for temperament as anything.

> Let's hope your baby will be healthy

I would certainly Insure this puppy with a Lifetime cover policy for a decent amount (find out hiow much it costs to fix breed related health concerns) as really it's health etc are really going to be pot luck.

Nothing is ever certain about any living thing, that is why good breeders do all they can to load the dice in favour of a good outcome through health testing and selective breeding for desired traits and against undesireable ones.

have to agree- insure quickly on a good lifetime policy.  & do not chat to insurance about puppy farms while aranging

Yes I can kick myself for being to trusting.  More important to me is not encouraging puppy farming and that’s what I have done, so stupid.  I did pay a lot of money for him, I will contact RSPCA to get them to check him out and perhaps save someone else and get him shit down if necessary.  I will write to the breeder first, and if no joy I will go to KC and look at the owners of grandparents.  If it turns out he has lied I will take legal action.  In the mean time I will enjoy my little boy.

I don't see why the RSPCA would be interested. Selling a puppy without registration papers isn't an act of cruelty. Surely this would be something to contact the Trading Standards at his local council about, under the Sales of Goods Act? Did you pay the same as a properly registered, from health tested parents puppy would cost? You would have to show that you have suffered a loss in any court action as from what you've said you accepted the terms that the seller offered.
My aunt bought a puppy, saw both parents in the home. Litter was advertised as "pedigree" not KC registered. When she finally managed to pin the "breeder" down about her pup's pedigree it turned out her pup was the result of a brother/sister mating. They hadn't done anything wrong in the eyes of the law as had been totally upfront that the litter wasn't KC registered.
All I can suggest is that you carry on enjoying your pup and when he is old enough have all the correct breed tests done on him yourself. A dog doesn't have to be KC registered to have their hips scored, eyes tested and DNA tests done. As long as they can be identified with a microchip they can have the relevant tests.

Not sure you get my main concern which is whether the breeder is is supplying fake pedigrees, which is fraud, and whether the breeder is is telling the truth and whether the breeder is the owner of the dogs.  Yes I paid a lot of money so expect my puppy to come from good stock and a good breeder. This isn’t about money I just want some reassurances that the person I purchased the puppy from is genuine and most of all that his dogs are well cared for.  I would want and expect the RSPCA to check that animals in his care to ensure they are healthy and happy and not abused in any way. Why did he not reply to my email even if it was just to say he doesn’t give out the dam and sire names? Why wouldn’t he tell me what wormer was given.  My vet asked me, how bad does that look when I tell my vet the breeder won’t tell me, and why is he so secretive is he trying to hide something? I have one other dog and have never had these problems.  I will check the pedigree and try to establish whether he could be the owner of the dame and sire. I’m not asking the breeder for money or to register the dog so I can breed from him I would like to check the parents, make sure he is who he claims to be a good breeder for 37 years.  I want to make sure I have not purchased from a puppy farm and if I did perhaps stop some one else from making the same mistake, I hope this make sense.

> Did you pay the same as a properly registered, from health tested parents puppy would cost?

I don't think there could possibly be an identifiable bracket there, given that these are private sales. Many people simply set the price they want, for example a fellow breeder always prices his puppies nearly half the "usual" amount, despite the fact that the quality of his breeding is among the top in the country.

You are more likely to get something checked by the local dog warden.  If the person is selling lots of litters and is a puppy farmer they will need to be licenced.

> This isn’t about money I just want some reassurances that the person I purchased the puppy from is genuine and most of all that his dogs are well cared for. 

Just like others above have commented, I too think your main worry should be the health of your pup. You say it's not about money, would you say the same if the puppy is ever diagnosed with hip dysplasia and requires £5000-£7000 surgery? Or an illness that will cripple him and instead of enjoying your lovely boy, you would end up watching him suffer...

Preventing puppy farming is great, but you've just bought this small being and without info about its parents and their health you have absolutely no idea what is awaiting you around the corner.

It is highly likely that the parents of your puppy are not KC registered. There are other so-called kennel clubs that will issue registration certificates based on the unchecked information that these so-called breeders supply - push it and the chances are that he will come up with a Dog Lovers Kennel Club, (or similar), document. These are often little more than a jumble of names. A recent one that I checked drew heavily on random names taken from the old pedigrees from a highly respected breeder. The so-called dam of the puppy would have to have been around 20 years old when she produced the litter!

You have been duped, and it hurts, but I fear that the fight is going to take more out of you than it will the callous breeder, who will be used to worming their way out of trouble. Your puppy is here now, needing your love and care, and I agree with the advice about taking out a decent level of insurance. If were you I would choose a name that you like, and register your puppy on the KC Activity Register. There is no need to supply any details of parentage. If you did decide to go ahead and have the health tests that concern you done, those results will become official and form part of the dog's KC record.

Yes I can kick myself for being to trusting.

You've had a valuable learning experience >about yourself<. From now on just learn to enjoy your dog 'as he/she is' not what he/she may or may not be......
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>Not sure you get my main concern which is whether the breeder is is supplying fake pedigrees, which is fraud, and whether the breeder is is telling the truth and whether the breeder is the owner of the dogs.

Neither of those things are of any concern to the RSPCA because they're not welfare issues. If you could give them evidence that the animals were being ill-treated(did you see any evidence of that when you visited?) they might look into it.

rspca will not inspect or investigate without clear evidence.  I reported a breeder to them a couple of  years ago selling a pup online with its ears cut off in photo-still healing &  they refused to investigate that so you have no chance. 
without evidence of who sold the pup to you & on what terms trading standards likewise will not get involved as breeder will just deny selling pup as no receipt etc
regarding parentage etc entirely possible dealer does not even know himself- whole litters can be bought from puppy farms to be sold on at profit from domestic house.  I met a dealer  years ago  who told me a whole litter of weimaraner pups could be bought & imported from Ireland for approx 1200-  then my spayed pet bitch weimaraner could pretend to be 'mum'
I would just concentrate on your  pup,  don't let the mistakes made in purchase ruin your pleasure in him.

the other thing about the dealer I met.. he was a very likeable man.  tricksters are- they are very very good at convincing people.  this is how they catch people out.

it was an interesting if horrific conversation.   I did ask him how to avoid getting caught out. he said you get pedigree names before seeing litter and look them up- make sure they are real and what health tests are recorded offically.  he said you never say what breed you are asking about when call- just say the puppies and if they say which ones means multiples, do  internet search on phone numbers and address used.  if mum not with pups probably not mum regardless of excuses, and he said always check the milk bar on mum. litter was hand reared as bitch had no milk is common excuse when not the mum
o and you never hand over the cash till all paperwork has been read and is in your hand.

too late for you and I am sorry- these people are very skilled at deceit and have caught out thousands.  and will continue to do so.  you aren't the first and you won't be the last sadly

Silver fox, I know you said you drove a long way to collect your pup, but maybe if you could go back on that long journey and speak to the breeder at the house you might get some answers one way or the other. You have possibly said and I've missed it, but how did you make the initial contact with the breeder, where was the pup advertised, did you have a choice of pup or was yours the only one available. Hope you get your answers

> Not sure you get my main concern which is whether the breeder is is supplying fake pedigrees, which is fraud, and whether the breeder is is telling the truth and whether the breeder is the owner of the dogs.

That is a matter for Trading Standards.  It is important that you keep a copy of the advertisment and any descriptive paperwork.

Unfiortuantely the RSPCA can only check n food water and shelter being provided for the animals, adn that they are not being ill treated physically.

That is a matter for Trading Standards.

Maybe, but some of the things OP is saying seem to indicate a criminal 'deception' of some sort has taken place, if so & if there is enough evidence then it's a criminal act of some sort & the perpetrator charged by the police, who on earth has ever heard of a refusal to give the names sire & dam of a pedigree dog........ah well, first time for everything I suppose..........or maybe not suppose
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Doesn’t sound right for me.
First thing my breeders have done is introduce me to the parents or send me full details.
For my Akita who I’m importing I was sent the full pedigree database which showed the lineage of the pups breed.
Don’t get me wrong it’s stressing me out having to wait another week till he can be delivered but I know the breeders history and those who know him in the uk vouched for him too.

The only thing you can do is tell your concerns to your vet. Maybe get them to do blood tests and move forward that way. Then you’ll know they’ll be fine and out of harms way if this was the case.

Why, not only is it not a veterinary problem, here in London at any rate it's a £40 fee just to see the vet, everything else is additional. Why blood tests? what malady is suspected & why? I did not read anything at all from OP about suspecting the dog is ill, which is all vets are for + microchip.
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The OP has suspected that the breeder is a possible puppy farmer. Due to the fact they’re not providing the information that they have asked for, therefore asking a vet to do some checks to make sure that there is nothing underlying would be the sensible thing to do? No?
Could possibly be different in London but here in Scotland you request a check up and they oblige, particularly if you have any worries, and contrary to popular belief they don’t just do things to make a quick penny.
First point of ownership, be prepared to pay a vet fee ... no matter the issue. Best to pay that for a check up than to have to deal with later life problems and higher fees because of an incompetent breeder.
My boy has had all vaccinations etc but I’ve still booked him into my vet for when he arrives for a quick health check.
In my opinion, always better to stay on top of it and go to regular check ups than miss something and having to rectify it later at extreme cost.

It's totally the same here in London and the rest of.the UK. Most people take a new pup.to.the vets for a health check after a few days and it sounds like.the vet has seen pup as he asked about wormer. Bloods are unlikely to be needed unless a health issue suspected and bloods don't show everything.op hasn't mentioned any health worries that could  be checked yet more missing info and non communication. The wormer bit is easily sorted as it doesn't have to be the same make
I wouldn't want to subject a young pup to bloods at this time  unless absolutely necessary .u want their experience at the vets to be positive as often as possible

> Why blood tests? what malady is suspected & why?

There re many DNA tests now available for hereditary conditiions, which may or may not apply to the breed this poster has bought.

For my breed which has a low clinical incidence iof hereditary health issues, we ca now DNA tes for prcd-PRA, breed specific Glaucoma and breed specific Dwarfism.

If thsi was one of my breed I( woudl certainly want to know the status for Glacucoma so if it turned out to be genetically at risk I could keep regular checks on teh dogs eye pressures to prevent the pain and blindness (tyhere is no clincial predisposition to check for).

If I had a pup of unknown parental health, I adlso want to Hip and Elbow score at appropriate age so as to know how to manage the diogs lige in relation to orthopaedic health.  Obviously the latter ohly applies after a year, unless using the Pen hip scheme.

There are a number of DNA tests fot Labs, also eye tests under the bva scheme plus hip and elbow scoring

It could be the person you brought your puppy from did not breed this litter but brought it to sell on. Dealers will buy litters from puppy farms or pet breeders for cheap and sell them on for a profit. This could explain why their supplied pedigree hasn't got to the parents names on it as they don't know what they are. Were the grandparents names in it? if they were id check mykc to see in any litters were registered between those dogs, it could be they have just picked some random names for the grandparents. It would also explain the different email accounts under different surnames, dealers will sometimes sell the litters of different breeder under different names to throw off puppy buyers.

I have heard of one breeder telling a puppy buyer they will register the pup later once they have seen them again a bit older, they then later refused to register it as they didn't like it and didn't want their name on the pup. But its not something any breeder id touch would do.

Brainless Quoted Euro
> Why blood tests? what malady is suspected & why?

Brainless wrote
There re many DNA tests now available for hereditary conditiions,

Euro
What has my quoted post got to do with your post on DNA?
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Jostockbridge how do I find out what litters have been registered

Get a MYKC account on the KC website then use "the find a dog link" to check the apparent KC names on the pedigree you were given. The progeny link for the dog gives you details of litters/puppies registered to the dog. You can also check health test results for the dog

> Jostockbridge how do I find out what litters have been registered

if the pedigree has kc names for the grandparents you can go to the mykc site and put their names into the dog search, if the names are real you can then see on the dogs page what offspring they have and with who.  if there is no litter between the two grandparents or the names arnt real then you know its all lies.

If you like you can pm me the names and ill have a look for you

Thanks jostockbridge, I have just checked one pedigree looks ok the other pedigree there is no record of a mating between the sire and dam. One is meant to be a Russian import so I have contacted the breeder.  The dam of my puppy is meant to be a French import but the pedigree is a KC pedigree but no record of the mating

> What has my quoted post got to do with your post on DNA?

???? You asked what blood tests, you would have a vet take blood smaples to send off for DNA testing.  some labs also accept buccal (cheek) swabs

I answered your quoted question: > Why blood tests? what malady is suspected & why?

I think by now you realise you have bought a puppy who will never be KC reg and has most probably come from a puppy farmer. You can have all sorts of DNA testing done if you wish, it will give you some idea of what kinds of things your pup could be carrying, PRA seems to be your main worry so it may be worth having it done to put your mind at rest, but to be honest it could just make you worry more. What would you do if it proved you have a carrier ? The parents should have been tested but its too late now for that and you have the pup. I think the RSPCA will not be in the slightest bit interested unless you felt there was some welfare issue to the health of the dogs, they are not concerned with health testing at all. If you feel the advert was wrong and was promising something that you did not get then you could take it down the legal route, but if the advert did not specify health tests or KC reg then I am afraid you got what you paid for. Maybe you paid too much but that's your fault, you could have walked away, you did not look at the pedigree or it seems anything else just paid the money and took your pup. It's a nasty stark reminder that the responsibility to check for yourself is a priority, if you choose not to confirm what someone tells you and have it backed up with paperwork then its a huge risk to take.
I would just enjoy your puppy for who he is, I assume you did not purchase with showing or breeding in mind as you do not know the parents names (and surely if you were looking for a show or breeding prospect you would know that before you ever answered any advert or approached the breeder, how else would you know what bloodlines you were getting ? ) Forget PRA or hips/elbow problems and take life as it comes, deal with any problems if and when they occur and don't worry yourself silly over what may never happen.
Tuck all the information away so that in future you choose more wisely and with better knowledge of what to look out for. Its sad and distressing to find you have been "had" but in reality there is little if anything you can do about it.

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I pup turned out to be a carrier there is no problem as long as he isn't bred from as he will be healthy but carry one copy of a fualty gene.

>What would you do if it proved you have a carrier ?

Brainless beat me to it.  No probs if you have a Carrier.  You don't want to have an Affected though...

Personally knowing what may be ther is better than not, s yu can alter environmental factors to compensate, put more money aside for dealing with things etc.

Forewarned is forearmed.

just do not do any tests until had insurance a couple of months