Continued from HERE

Thank you everyone, sorry for not replying sooner but it's been hectic here, kids are off for summer holidays so been dealing with them and also our beautiful mum and pups.

The reason for wanting her spayed isn't just because of this happening again, it's more because I've witnessed 2 dogs be put to sleep due to pyomtra because it wasn't caught early enough and the vets have said spaying stop that happening. She will be 2 at the end of the year. But your right about me not allowing it to happen so there isn't an awful rush to have her spayed due to another unwanted pregnancy. It was just my vet who brought it up when I took her and the puppys down to be checked.

About the worming of the puppies, they are already booked in with the vet to have their first dose of wormer on 15th July and the vet will be giving me the stuff to bring home to do it at intervals after that. Then they will do it again when they go back for their health and wellbeing check before going to new homes.

About the price for them, I did a search online after reading on this post about asking for a payment and yes I can see the prices people are asking for crossed breeds, it's eye watering but I can alsp understand when you take into account all the things that the breeder pays out during the bitches pregnancy and pups being with them. I can't however imagine asking for the kinds of prices I've seen people ask more for the fact that it wasn't something I planned and it's not a litter of full breeds
I do understand however about attracting the wrong type of buyer and as the puppies future is of paramount importance I'll ask for £300 in the hope it deters the wrong type of people. I do know for certain that I'll be very aware and looking for the best homes as possible and will trust my gut instinct when it comes down to it also.

About the vaccines before them going to new homes, again I'm just going off what my vet said when I phoned and asked how it would work if I kept them a bit longer than the 8 weeks, these are all things I should have focused on researching more about so I knew better but instead I focused on the pregnancy and whelping and how to make sure I knew when problems arised so I've been totally irresponsible in that sense as I should have been looking at every aspect of what was needed.

Lastly I have a question, is it normal for mum to have diharrea? I can't remember if someone already posted about it. It's not lots but she had it last night when she went out to pee then some again thus morning.

The breeders among us will give u info on her tummy but given how much u have had to learn and how well u have done I am not surprised that u havnt yet fully research all.the alternatives for after you have the pups.its good to talk to your vet but also continue to ask others who have  experience and of course reading .That way u will make your own informed choices. U keep learning all.the time .I've certainly changed my views and things I do  over time thanks to other experienced  dog owners .

Samjam, I do feel quite sorry for you(!) - because you have been thrown into the middle of learning an awful lot, very quickly, and having to pick your own way through probably all the hot potato issues in DogDom - all at once - which is a lot to navigate - all whilst raising your first litter of puppies. 

Given your head is probably full of puppies at the moment, and that is enough to fill anyone's head, without also trying to decide what they think about all these controversial issues, it's understandable if you're confused.  It's not that you are irresponsible.

It is very normal for mum to have diahorrea - she has probably eaten lots of placentas (which cause runny poo), plus presumably you are feeding her a lot/she is eating a lot more (than the nothing she was eating before!) and so all that is going to be going through her body as well.  She may also discharge some dark clotty blood stuff when she urinates for many weeks after whelping - which is also very normal.  I guess this could look like poop if you don't inspect it closely!  Don't give her anything with milk in it - including puppy formula milk, cows' milk, cream etc - as many dogs can't digest lactose and that can cause diahoorea. 

With the vaccine situation, IF you are going to be Ms Totally Conventional Following Vet Advice:  You would vaccinate at 8wks, and then again at 12wks, with whatever the vet gives - which will include a lepto jab, either lepto 2 or 4.  That will mean that you give the pups the first jab and then probably their new owners will do the 2nd jab.  If you want to do anything other than that, you are going to need to think for yourself, pick through the information coming from different sources and make a decision for you and your puppies.  That is not a dodgy thing to do, it is what good breeders and knowledgeable dog folk do all the time.  I would really encourage you to take that approach to everything.  NB:  If you do give only the 1st jab, you will need to make sure the owners' new vets have the same brand of vaccine as your vet does - or their vet will want to restart the vaccines from scratch to make sure that both vaccines are the same brand(!).  If all your puppies are going locally, I would recommend their new owners go back to your vet for the 2nd vaccination - just to be sure the same brand is used and available and to avoid that situation.

My take is:  If you are keeping the pups past 8 weeks, you need to socialise them to things away from the house - that's a given.  You can be careful about where you put them down on the ground, but I think that if you never put them down anywhere, they will lose out in terms of socialisation.  I think socialisation is more important than anything relating to vaccines - because far more dogs are PTS for behavioural problems due to inadequate socialisation, than the small number that die from a vaccine reaction or from catching something they could have been vaccinated against.  So I always prioritise behavioural health, whenever making a decision about vaccination.  If you are going to be reluctant to take the pups out anywhere at all or put them on the ground without any vaccinations, then I think having the first jab at 8wks would be best.  (I would advise NOT having the lepto 2 or 4 jab - you will need to insist on that, with your vet!)  If you believe you can carry the pups about, expose them to things in your arms, and put them down in safe areas where other dogs won't have toileted, then delaying vaccinations until they go to their new homes and letting their new owners do all the jabs, would be best.  You have 8 weeks to think about it all though! 

I agree that asking for a reasonable price for them, is best - and will also reflect the care you are now giving them.  Which is much more than many people would. 

With the wormer, you really don't need to go to the vet to get wormer for your puppies - you can buy it online without a prescription and it comes with instructions on when to dose and how much to give etc.  Look at Panacur 10% paste in the syringe - that is what many of us use.  You can buy it online from any pet pharmacy.

With spaying mum, pyometra really is mainly a risk for older bitches - from the age of 6 years+ the risk of pyo increases.  Interestingly, having a litter of puppies reduces the risk of pyo in many breeds.  And the majority of pyo cases, whilst an emergency, are successfully treated.  So, your young bitch which has already had a litter, is not at a great risk for pyo.  And meanwhile, there ARE risks for spaying - if you read the links I posted in the other thread that got locked, you will see those.  Unfortunately there is no choice which eliminates all risks of everything - it is about choosing which risks you want to take, not finding a perfect answer.

Hope that helps!

It's like every day is a school day lately with all the stuff I've been learning along the way. But yes I need to get all the information and choices and then make a decision on things on my own with help and guidance along the way. I've been uneducated about this stuff and I had always imagine breeders having pups and looking after them then giving them new homes when the time comes, but this has opened my eyes tremendously to what actually goes into the whole process and the time, emotions physically and mentally that breeders must go through when rearing pups. Don't get me wrong it's been an amazing experience over the past couple of days but the work you have to put into it and decisions that need made are extensive.

In regards to the vaccines it's good to know about them having to be same brand, so I'll be sure to take that into account regarding that decision.
And in regards to spaying I'll be sure I get onto those links tonight and read up on it all. I've been keeping a little book that I write down topics to research since joining this site so I've got a few of the things written down so I've got that to read up on tonight after all my kids are in bed.

Once again, thank you to each and every 1 of you for your advice and support.

Also what does it mean that I thread got locked ? I see it has a little padlock.next to it.

Please do NOT let your vet vaccinate your puppies & worm them on the same day. Many years ago a friend allowed this to happen(twice once with each vaccination) & his puppies were found to have no immunity 2 months later when they all contracted Parvo. My vet was horrified that the vet had gone against all sensible veterinary practice. It has now been found that doing both on the same day continues to affect immune systems.

My current vet has never done this & tries to persuade new owners to either titre test before vaccinating. under 10 week olds or to wait until after 10 weeks of age. He has very few if any reactors to the vaccinations this way & is a very experienced vet. He doesn't charge the earth for the in house titre testing & includes it in the cost of the under 10 weeks vaccination

Some breeders would suggest that eating all of the afterbirths may cause diahorrea

No no I wouldn't let the vet do it. Luckily my vet has the same thoughts on that and did my girls vaccines on different days to her worm and flea treatments and its the same practice I've taken the pups to and will continue to use.  I didn't know there was reason to do it on different days, I just thought that's how it was done anyway.

Samjam, threads are just locked once puppies have been successfully delivered - so that the same thread doesn't continue for pages and pages, and people can start a new one with each problem/issue they have.

Ah right I see. That makes a lot more sense.

I always time my worming so that it is likely to fall in between the vaccinations to avoid too much at once, same for flea treatments etc.

We have always wormed our puppies, at 2 weeks and on, using Shirleys Worming Syrup which is gentle and has never caused a bad reaction.  I've done this from years ago and of course, products alter so you may find something more up to date.   If you worm at 2 weeks and every 2 weeks going forward, there should be no clash with the first vaccination.

Re pyometra.   I have a theory, and it is only a theory based on the fact we have NEVER experienced this with any of our bitches, most of whom were spayed when retired, so over 6 years old, that our bitches never left our properties when in season so there was no risk of them squatting and picking up infection - mine being a low to ground breed.   FWIW

To anticipate a question re eye opening - the brighter the light you have the puppies in, the later the eyes, generally, will open.   Conversely if they are in muted light, their eyes may open at the normal time.    Do NOT be tempted to open the lids ..... you will see little slits appearing with the eyeball just in view, at first.

> To anticipate a question re eye opening - the brighter the light you have the puppies in, the later the eyes, generally, will open.   Conversely if they are in muted light, their eyes may open at the normal time.    Do NOT be tempted to open the lids ..... you will see little slits appearing with the eyeball just in view, at first.

Thank you, I've read online that it's around 10 days after birth that the eyes will begin to open. I didn't know that about the light affecting when they open though so that's good to know thank you.

Hi again everyone, I'm back here for everyone's knowledge as I have no clue where I stand. I've posted here so if there is anyone who doesn't know about the journey I've had can see but if it should be a new post then I'm sorry and I'll make it as a new post.
First of all though just an update on the pups, they're all thriving well and mum has been great with them, 2 of them have their eyes open so far that opened yesterday.
Anyway the thing I need to know is, where do I stand with the owner of the dog who sired the pups ? After no contact from them since us finding out about the mating they messaged yesterday demanding a pup, when I informed them that all pups had homes already they have demanded money.
I don't have £500 to give them, but they've said because it was their dog who sired the litter they are entitled to a pup of their choosing or a stud fee.
I don't know very much about stuff like this because it's not something I wished to do but I'm pretty sure that's the rules for if it's an agreed breeding and not 1 we signed off on so to speak. I've hardly slept because I'm worrying and don't know where I stand in this situation. Do I have to give them money? Giving them a pup isn't an option as I won't let any of the buyers down by saying they can't have their chosen pup. I know and trust all the people who are taking 1 of the pups also.

Please don't give them any money or a pup.  Its appalling that they shpilf even consider asking .i very much  doubt they have any claim on u at all given the whole circumstances  but others with better knowledge will confirm . If u wish for low cost  legal advise to put your mind at rest ring Trevor Cooper at dog law.he has an excellent 1 21 advise line that for a small cost a max of £30 from memory and is knowledgeable  on all things legal
Some people!!! Maybe they would have liked the vet costs u could of accrued! And risk to your bitch

That's exactly why I don't have the money to give them, I've paid so much already for mum to be checked at vets and paying for whelping box and kit, not to mention I'll be paying for all the flea and worm treatments, microchips, 4 out of 5 pups I'll be getting their first vaccine also (other  future owner is in different town so will be using a different vet so want to get them done themselves)
Were keeping a pup, 3 other pups are going to 2 family members and a friend so I've asked them to split the price for what it's costing to have my dog spayed as I don't want to ask for crazy money for a cross bread, the 5th is someone from a town 5 hours away and ivr asked for £200 but that's only for peace of mind that the pup is going to someone caring, the fact they are willing to travel back and forth to visit the pup shows that though as they could easily get 1 closer to home but they've decided they want 1 of these ones. So I'm not event making £500 from 1 sale. I now believe this was deliberate and they knew exactly what they were doing but played dumb to us just to spring this on us now. I'm just struggling to cope with the stress of it all.

Hmm.does sound suspicious or someone has made a.commemt to them.anyway iI am sure others will.confirm.there is nothing they can do if u dint repsond but a phone call to dog law will put your.mind at rest.after all you only have their word the father is.their.dog . I am sure they dont want to get involved in paying for DNA. I would ignore them.
Even if.u had.the.money I would still ignore they have no recourse to you.for.this it was an accidental mating

As the litter was not planned, (far from it) then they have a real cheek and have no rights whatsoever.

Wonder if they would be so eager to put their hands in their pockets for the costs if you had to have a C section, not to mention all the ongoing costs, and your precious time..

Might text them back and ask for a contribution to your vet costs, whelping stuff and your time.

> <br />Might text them back and ask for a contribution to your vet costs, whelping stuff and your time.

I did reply saying it would have been nice for them to be as concerned about mum's wellfare than what they are about money or a pup. I've stopped replying to them because I don't know where I stand legally and don't want to get into any sort of trouble over this. It's been a worrying journey already and had only began to start enjoying having the little babies around. My husband has said he'll speak to them and deal with it but he is refusing to hand over any money and thinks it's absurd for them to even think of this when until now they denied all knowledge of it happening.

I wouldn't say anything else to.them at all but get your legal position confirmed then u really know where u stand 

I wouldn't ask for.anything from them just in case it alters anything
http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

Oh goodness sake, Samjam, I am so angry on your behalf!!!!!!  I am spitting feathers!

NO WAY do these people get 1p off you for this mating.  Whatever next?!  As others have implied the responsible thing to have done, would have been actually to OFFER you money, since their dog had a part to play in all your expenses at the moment and the cost of all this.

These people sound like greedy £-£ mongering so and sos, with nothing but money to think of. 

Rest assured, there is NOTHING they can do legally, they don't have a leg to stand on.  As someone else has suggested, if you need further assurance, call Trevor Cooper of Dog Law (google him) for advice.  But you don't really need to do that because it's really clear - you owe them nothing.  There was never a stud contract for starters, it was an accidental mating!

Am I cynical, but what if it was accidentally on purpose? Keep quiet, claim no knowledge and then steam in with demands? Best bet is to get the proper legal advice as others suggested.

> Am I cynical, but what if it was accidentally on purpose? Keep quiet, claim no knowledge and then steam in with demands? Best bet is to get the proper legal advice as others suggested.

This is what I'm now beginning to think has happened, that they've known it happens or allowed it to happen but deny all knowledge of it and because they know I pretty much don't have a clue about this sort of thing they've demanded something in return thinking I would instantly agree. We've not spoke anymore with them about it, there was never any conversation regarding what would happen with the litter or payment because it was denied on their part and said nothing happened between the dogs. Gees I didn't even know that I should ask for something for each pup because they aren't pedigree. I'm just reeling with shock that they have the audacity to demand such things. They haven't even asked if mum or pups are ok or if there was any complications during labour. I will Google this man you've recommended and if they contact us again I'll be sure to get in touch with him so I know exactly what's expected.

Go to the link above it will go straight to his website

Unless there is something in writing regarding puppy in lieu of stud fee(stud fees for dogs are usually paid on the day the mating was done & is only for the dog to mate the bitch not like breeding horses where it is usually no foal no fee)then the dog owner has no rights to the puppies at all. What a bl**dy cheek ! As you did NOT give consent for the dog to mate the bitch he was even less than zero rights he owes you money for all the vet visits etc.

Glad I don't have entire bitches, this guy is a right piece of work

> he is refusing to hand over any money and thinks it's absurd for them to even think of this

and he is quite correct, it would be like a rapist wanting access to his child.

Thanks for all your advice. We've stopped replying to the messages after my husband told them they had no rights and that if they continue to harass us we will have no choice but to seek the appropriate legal advice and then the police if need be due to the amount of messages that they have sent us since yesterday. Hopefully that will be the last we hear from them about it. I still can't get my head around it all never mind adding this into the mix.

> there was never any conversation regarding what would happen with the litter or payment because it was denied on their part and said nothing happened between the dogs.

Well this is pretty hilarious, I'd just throw that right back at them:  Since they are so sure nothing happened, it can't have been their dog that was the sire.  Say that it must have been another dog she played with in the park.  (Even if you both know this isn't true, they can't have it both ways...!).

> Well this is pretty hilarious, I'd just throw that right back at them:  Since they are so sure nothing happened, it can't have been their dog that was the sire.  Say that it must have been another dog she played with in the park.  (Even if you both know this isn't true, they can't have it both ways...!).

That thought hadn't even crossed my mind to say to them, I suppose it would mean they would either have to leave it alone or admit the truth. Even if they admit they did it on purpose it won't change facts. I wouldn't give them a pup anyway because as far as I'm aware they had planned on rehoming the dog anyway as partner of the friend or brother didn't like having him around as he was hyper and barks all the time, so there's no way I would be giving them 1 of the pups.
Just hoping that's the end of it now. It's been such a stress with not knowing if mum would birth ok or if the pups would be ok and then making sure all was fine after they were born and now this.

Wait, I've got an even better reply!!

Say:  "Well, actually I did see a dog in the park humping her just after we got her back.  Would you like to pay for DNA testing on the puppies?  It's £72 a puppy, plus mum and dad need to be tested too." 

Think that might shut him up!

> Wait, I've got an even better reply!!<br /><br />Say:  "Well, actually I did see a dog in the park humping her just after we got her back.  Would you like to pay for DNA testing on the puppies?  It's £72 a puppy, plus mum and dad need to be tested too."  <img class="fsm fsm_lol" src="/images/epx.png" title="lol" alt="" />

There is no way they would pay for that, I know that for certain. So that could be my next reply if we ever hear from them again. They would no doubt know I'm lying though cos it's something I wouldn't allow to happen lol.