Not wanting to hijack another thread, but interested to know why gundogs (often from working lines) are so often described as "hyper", "box of frogs" etc.  Am I wrong in feeling that in the field a "box of frogs" is liable to be asked "not to work here again", if not to "go home now"? Focus, yes; keenness, yes; but uncontrolled hyperactivity would surely spoil the sport for everyone?  Which leads me to think that these breeds need to be properly trained and employed to channel their natural instincts.

What do other Gundog owners think?

I have Cockers (now on my 3rd and 4th), and from that small sample have found that calm training and praise is better for them than the sort of "geeing them up" which seems to be promoted at some general dog training classes. One of my current ones would be confused and made anxious by the sort of "encouragement" which is seen with (for example) flyball collies; the other would indeed become a "hyper box of frogs" (if not a "super-duper-hyper-bof" ). They are both show types, but the second is more "worky" than the first, although both will happily hunt.

What I have found with all my Cockers (2 mixed types, 2 pure show types) is that I have to be on top of my game with them all the time, if I slack off they will take advantage.  (That's good for me as it stops me becoming complacent or idle .)  My working lines Labrador was an easier dog (but I was much younger then) but still needed me to know what she was up to, although she would very kindly give me some easier days during the week.

I think you mean my thread were members have described Irish setters as hyper ect.., I would love to know the awnser my self as everytime I talk to an Irish setter or flat coat owner I'm always told there hyper, mad , never tire and won't rest in the house or that they bounce of the walls, so I'd like to know why people always say this but then breeders and owners I spoke to say the opposite.

I would guess they are described that way as they are bred to work and have the drive to enable them to work all day. In the same way as children (and some adults), if energy is not directed in a positive way it can lead to hyper or uncontrolled behaviour. I know of some spaniels that are wired to the moon and others that are happy as kennelled dogs who work and the main difference between them is that the ones who have been trained and whose behaviour is directed are much nicer dogs to be around.  Dogs that need a purpose but don’t have one are more likely to end up being hard work.

> In the same way as children (and some adults), if energy is not directed in a positive way it can lead to hyper or uncontrolled behaviour.

This!  The majority of gundogs (and any dogs) do not end up in working homes, and this I think is where this reputation comes from.  They can be very driven dogs, which I think is a much better description but put in a pet home with insufficient stimulation, and you've got a loony on your hands.

A perfect example with a pup I worked with recently (and a similar one a year or two ago), of a cockerpoo.  I suspect working cocker in the parentage rather than show and that dog was NUTS.  He was not getting enough training or stimulation at all, and he was absolutely bash1t crazy.  He's been probably one of the hardest dogs I've had to work with.  Took us over a month to get him to stay in one place while any human walked a single step away from him.  By contrast, I've seen gundogs in homes that get much more to do and think about and they are well adjusted, relatively calm dogs.

There is a bit of 'busyness' about spaniels though which I don't like - but that's just personal preference.  I happily live with a malinois who has to be into everything I'm doing (literally, most of the time) but spaniels have that extra bumblebee-like busy personality that just drives me potty!

I'd suggest it depends on the particular bloodlines.   My neighbour had, amongst a variety of other dogs over the years, 2 Large Munsterlanders.  They came from different kennels.   One was way more gentle, loving and comparatively easy to live with than the other who, the moment he reached the outskirts of our small hamlet, would switch off and be TOTALLY focused on the open fields.   I know because we sat them/exercised them.   Sadly one day he took of on his owner on a very hot day and was later spotted lying in a ditch in the full sun by a passing rider.   I helped her got him home and attempted to cool him down, but he started fitting.   We got him to her vet but they couldn't bring him out of the fit and he died.   He really was a nightmare to live with and clearly should have been in a working, not a pet home situation.   Not that she should have kept exercising them just after mid-day regardless of the weather

I would just say her first Munster, the more gentle one, was afraid of any guns and thunder.   When the local shoot came round, he was a basket case!!   Some gundog eh.

> I would just say her first Munster, the more gentle one, was afraid of any guns and thunder.   When the local shoot came round, he was a basket case!!   Some gundog eh.

That's interesting - I wonder if the gentle nature of that one was linked with his dislike of bangs and comparative lack of working drive?

> they are bred to work and have the drive to enable them to work all day

Yes indeed, and in adverse winter weather too.  My Lab was always very good (=non-destructive) in the house until the time I was in bed with flu for over a week: the first day she brought me her biscuits, the second day she brought her ball, the third day she started on the furniture and I had to put jeans and jumper over my pyjamas and give her a decent walk (on the subsequent days my Dad drove over and walked her).

> There is a bit of 'busyness' about spaniels though which I don't like - but that's just personal preference.  I happily live with a malinois who has to be into everything I'm doing (literally, most of the time) but spaniels have that extra bumblebee-like busy personality that just drives me potty!

A bit of "spanelling about" as they used to say in Sussex. For me, it's part of their charm and shows me aspects of their world, but I can quite see that it can be really annoying.

Very much what they were bred for: good for putting up birds even out of deep cover.

But they should also know (be trained) how to control themselves and wait for direction, if only to prevent them getting into the line of fire or take off after the wrong sort of game.

The same applies to other breeds, I read/heard somewhere the comment.......

Border Collies NEED a job .....if you don't give them one they will become 'self-employed' ........YOU WON'T LIKE IT!

I had an Irish setter many years ago, he came from show lines and looked fantastic. He was quite easy to train although he benefitted from some firmness nd endless repartition. Training methods in those days were very much the Barbara Woodhouse way with check (choke) chains etc which didn’t do him any harm as he was always full of beans and happy as the day is long. He was pretty good off lead having a pretty good recall, but if a certain smell took him then he would be off like a rocket flushing out birds right left and centre. He was great fun to live with, always wanting to know what you were doing and full of fun. He had some very endearing habits which made as roar with laughter. I always said we would have another if we had our own land as they are dogs that love to run and run, well he was anyway. It’s what  I meant when I said he was as mad as box of frogs, not a mad untrainable restless dog.

I’ve had a number of golden retrievers mostly with some working dogs in their pedigree to one degree to another. One came from wall to wall show dogs, was very skatty and difficult to train well. She was totally gun shy and terrified of thunderstorms and the heavy rain that accompanied it, very much a relief when she went deaf.
The golden I have now is dual purpose bred (show lines sire and working lines dam) and I’ve found this is a very good combination. I know one of her siblings and he is pretty much the same. She’s been easy to train, greats to take for a walk as her recall especially to a whistle is the best I’ve had, yet she is able to switch off in the house and relax.

> so I'd like to know why people always say this but then breeders and owners I spoke to say the opposite.

Different expectations and requirements.

My Pet dog training class instructor who had done competitive obedience for decades, says the average owner wants a dog that is thick and lazy.  I would say with the largely sedentary population (I have read that many people do less than half an hours walking a week) then a Pet owner may expect to walk their dog for a half hour round the block, maybe not when it's raining, and take it on a longer outing at weekends.  The rest fo the tiem the dog is required to happily blend into the background and sleep.

Breeders and breed aficionados generally are doing a lot more with their dogs.

So the untrained Pet dog with any sort of work or hunting drive will be stir crazy and untrained, the dog with an owner who understands it's drives and needs will have a content settled dog after it's daily activities.

> There is a bit of 'busyness' about spaniels though which I don't like

> spaniels have that extra bumblebee-like busy personality that just drives me potty!

Yep, know some lovely ones but could not live with one.

I think you have got the nail on the head brainless.

Very much a personal thing then.  A family member always has ex-racing greyhounds, very laid-back and super-calm which they like but for me (used to the busy spaniels) they seem very boring.

It has been interesting to read the replies. Thank you to everyone who replied.  It does seem to come down a) liking and accepting the basic temperament and b) to consistent training and keeping active minds and bodies employed.

Must admit I love my Cavaliers for the way they are busy and active when we go out to shows or training days, but at home will just lounge on sofas and laps and not be constantly wanting to do stuff, it's ideal for me! And I agree the way that collie people 'gee' their dogs up, which obviously works for them, wouldn't work for mine, I remember with my 2nd Cavalier, who absolutely loved working obedience and rally, how a collie friend tried to get her more geed up before working once and Ellie just looked rather alarmed as if suspecting that the human had gone mad.

I have a working lines Golden - my heart dog. Full of energy when needed and a couch potato when asked. I also have a collie who is a failed farm dog and he too is wonderful indoors when needed to be calm and relaxed. I do agility with the dogs (GR now retired) but that is once a week so although my dogs have a job to do they also have a lot of days when they aren't "working".

Border Collies NEED a job .....if you don't give them one they will become 'self-employed' ........YOU WON'T LIKE IT!

Teaching my dogs to settle down and relax has been a great thing for them both. My collie was a rescue and spent his early life on a chain so he made his own entertainment - he has been hard work and the car chasing is still a work in progress although he can be walked alongside a fairly busy road now. Agility is a high energy, high arousal "sport" so being able to relax and come down to a level where he is able to listen and respond to commands. When he first started training I couldn't have him around the other dogs when they were running as it sent him way over threshold but, by teaching him to relax and lie quietly whilst others are running, he is now able to remain in the training venue for the whole session.

Teaching a dog to have an off switch is, to me, as important as any other training you give them.

> Teaching a dog to have an off switch is, to me, as important as any other training you give them.

So agree.

I have spaniels, clumbers and they are very very laid back unless its something they want to do then they can move!
We meet many cocker crosses and cockers and springers and all rung rings round my two. Mine just sit there watching and I'm sure they're thinking what the flippin heck are they running like that for!
I have fit slim clumbers os show lines, not the old heavy type.