Hi all

I'm hoping you can help me , as I don't drive I'm not able to go to many shows so am hoping you can all help with recommendations of what dog breed is going to suit me.

I thought the best way to help would be by describeing my perfect dog

Exercise: I could do around 2hrs of physical exercise a day ( plus lots of mental stimulation such as brain toys ect)

Energy level: medium ( calm in the house and calm overal)

Size: large anywhere from Labrador size to rottweiler size 30kg-50kg

Grooming: I'm fine with any grooming requirements as I'm friends with a groomer and will be giving me mates rates. As well as teaching me the basics.

Coat type: happy with all apart from hairless

Training: easy to moderate ( my future breed does not need to be an easy breed like a lab I'm fine with breeds that are moderate on the training but also am happy for easy to train too)

Playful: I would like a dog who is pretty playful

Barking : I'm used to dogs who only bark for a reason so no more vocal than say a GSD. Not a breed who's prone to be very vocal.

Also I'm not a fan of drooling or overly affectionate dogs.

Interms of temperament I would like a breed who is friendly, playful, loyal, calm and living with there families and somewhat friendly with other people too but not overly.

These are some of the things I'm looking for in my future friend.

I should also say now that I have looked into gundogs but the only ones I liked were Italian spinione , flat coats and Welsh Springer's but I had to knock all three off as Italians drool, flat coats of been told are crackers and welshies are a little too small.

Goldens and labs just don't do anything for me ( there lovley dogs but I just can't see myself with either)

I know I have written a lot but Its soooooo important I get this right and feel being honest iOS the best way.

I hope there's a breed for me

Irish Setter. Mad as a box of frogs but great fun

Year but it's the mad as a box of frogs that would put me off as I want a calm dog, I nearly found a breed who ticked all my box's in the Italian spinione but they  drool and I'm not a massive fan of drool there energetic and can handle 2hrs a day but as adults ( as I know all puppies are mad hatter's) are calmer than most gundogs.

Flat coats  do take a while.to settle into calm adults but  if u are prepared to give them something to do with their brains as well as exercise they fit all.your requirements.

What type of things? As flat coats appeal to me but I'm worried about being told they never tire and are as hyper as Springer's? One person even told me that's why there not as popular as pets as there mainly to high energy for pet homes and should only be working dogs?

I disagree with that description they are fine as pets and I know a number who are just that . yes like other gundog breeds first and foremost they were bred for working but as long as you are going to be prepared for exercising them and doing some brain work then they are lovely and will lay down happily to snooze when not being asked to do something

I know many who are pets and  not out in the field working and are very happy and easy to live with or no more difficult then any puppy can be . They need gentle consistent handling as they are a sensitive breed who don't do well to being shouted but respond well to training and are very clever . They are big foodies as a rule so treat training is easy .
. They are known as the peterpan of the retrievers but that's because they can take a while to mature it doesn't mean they are impossibl eto live with for the ordinary home  they settle into   being lovely dogs.  They are very attached to their owner ime  so if you don't want a dog that likes to know where you are at all times they arnt a fit for you . that's not to say separation anxiety is a general problem but definite Velcro dogs .

mine have only ever been pets as although my brooke my current fcr was going to be shown she didn't enjoy it . so its walks and some brain work and obedience classes  , not competition level just pet.
we have goldies and a working cocker in the family and previously a springer and  I also had a gsd and a toy breed  as pups I cant say there has been much difference. The flat coats took longer to become calm and settled but not ridiculously  so but working cockers now for me that's really is a box of frogs. I think with most breeds its a lot about what you put in that makes the difference 

over all yes they tire and settle my now 7 year old has never been a problem at home except if we see a fox and I don't think they are hyper. try and contact the breed society and see if its practical to visit some  or can you get to discover dogs either in October or next march and talk to them too. the thing about fcr is that they just love life. health wise their biggest issue again is cancer but the average is 10 . my personal opinion having just llost my 3rd dog to cancer at 10 not an fcr is its problem in many breeds
hope that helps

Having lived with Irish Setters over the past 43 years, I've never had one that was crazy like people seem to think. I've had dogs and bitches and found no difference in the way they are around the house. They are active and fun loving, loyal to their family and very trainable. Mine have an hour free running every morning rain or shine and spend the rest of the day in and out the house and garden.

My current three entire boys live very happily together with no fuss. They are friendly and easy going towards other dogs and love a game of chase. I'm afraid I do feel a bit exasperated when people say Irish Setters are crazy, insinuating that they're difficult to live with. They are not.

There are DNA tests for most of the health problems seen over the years in fact it is one of the few breeds that the Kennel Club refuses to register if the parents have an unknown Clad status, and mine have certainly not had me at the vets much in their lives, living to 13 or 14 years old.

Thank you so much furriefriends, so the whole Peter Pan thing just means they take awhile to grow up like labs don't grow up till around 3-4yrs is this the same with FCR?

Thank you Dawn-R , this is now gonna make my choice a lot harder , I think if I make a list of breeds and then meet them at discover dogs. As I'm now not only interested in FCR but also Irish setters, I have always overlooked them as people said the same that there crazy never tire and for some reason I'm always told that IS are stupid? Why do people say these things about Irish's and flats if it's not true?

So Irish setters are not crazy like there not bouncing off the wall? And they can be calm dogs?

Yep I would.say similar

GSD?
My girl can go either 15 minute stroll or 3hr hike, and she's the same chilled out in the house with either.
Grooming wise, a quick brush once a week will serve the short coated
Very easy to train, playful, mine only barks if she hears someone walk up the driveway.
I would say they are quite affectionate though, known as velcro dogs, but mine will settle away on her bed if told. Not sure what you mean by not " overly affectionate" !
They're total goof balls too.
I will say that any breed as a puppy will be hard work and likely not at all calm!

Did I miss something in your OP about why you only seem to have looked at gun dogs?

Irish Red and White Setter, as the Welsh springer appealed. Less hyper than the Irish, and with the excerise and training you intend should suit them.

My personal favourite Setter though is then Gordon, one of my Elkhound puppy buyers daughter breeds them, and so I met hers on many occasions.

Even he Elkhounds might suit, (if you don't want a yes man) they can be trained not to bark for no reason, but they are more a what's in it for me re training, very bright, but need to see the point. Certainly take the exercise, as much or as little as suits you, sociable, but not fawning.  Definitely hairy LOL.

I'd suggest attending some championship shows. look at Groups outside the Gundogs too, like Hound and Utility.

Hound Group show is on 14th July at Stafford County showground, won't cost you to get in either.

Usually £5 to park if a non exhibitor.

When I mentioned gundogs it was just to say that I'm not appealed to labs or goldens as I know they might have been recommended, but am fine with any group just that in the gundog group labs and Goldens would be a no.

But I liked the flat coat , Italian spinione, Welsh Springer.

So far on my list I have the flat coat

Anyone know if Italian spinione are calm like it's says online and in books? And if they would suit me? I read the drool is not as bad as a need?

Greyhounds, lurchers, they are very calm my family have always had them.  Very trainable despite what you may hear, my mum competed in obedience with her whippet. they love a walk, after a full flat out gallop they potter close to heal for miles. If you don't want to go a walk one day they are cool with that.  ,Before a friend of mine died we used to excerise 2 GSP, 2 English Setters, a Japanese Chin and his 3 competive RACING GREYOUNDS everyday and all off the lead.  Now everyone will tell you that the greyhounds should not run with a toy dog, but they did and the key to everything with any breed of dog is you ability to train it.
Irish red and  Whites retain a lot of working instinct and will work, they cant help it, even if you have no idea what a setter is. Mine also drools and it is like wallpaper paste whenever he sees or thinks of food.  To me clean trousers are not an essential and I don't live in a show home so it is not a big deal

Flatcoats need to be exercised, brain as well as physically and they are just as calm in the house as other similar breeds. I think you mentioned that you didn't want a needy, clingy dog so that may rule them out as they do like to get close and be wherever you go in the house.
Watch your lines, I've had 6 and found the last 2, half brothers, of Swedish bloodlines the most 'hyper' of them all. They soak up exercise and still want more, that said though I've had labs with just as much energy.

> I'm afraid I do feel a bit exasperated when people say Irish Setters are crazy, insinuating that they're difficult to live with. They are not.

THANK YOU - I was just going to respond saying the same

Setters (have Gordons now but have had Irish and English) are not crazy and I do sigh when people say but aren't they mad well the red ones are - no none of them are - they will settle and are as much a sofa dog as any other dog - they like to run they like to play but how many dogs don't! My setters on the whole (English the exception) have better recalls than many other breeds - why because I spent time training them.

I have trained to Good Citizen gold and have done agility with them!

Fun and energtic - crazy no!

> So Irish setters are not crazy like there not bouncing off the wall? And they can be calm dogs?

No they aren't! yes they can

If you liked Spinones, but were put off by the drooling, have you considered other wiry-faced HPR breeds which have less flews so don't really drool?

Like the German Wirehaired Pointer, the Cesky Fousek, the Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer, the Wirehaired Vizsla - to name a few...

I am not sure if other HPR breeds might be to energetic for me as if read some can be as active as a Weimaraner which is to high energy for me.

My sister told me she knows someone with an Italian spinione so she arranged for me to meet him yesterday and I really fell for the breed and have put them on my list. This is what he told me about the breed ( I was writing it all down and he did not mind)

Firstly they are amazing dogs but not for everyone and that's why it's important you meet more of them as well as find people's experiences of them to learn more.

Italian spiniones are a member of the Gundog group and are often referred to as an HPR breed, Hunt Point Retrieve, which basically means they are an all-rounder as a gundog, they will do the job of a spaniel, a pointer or setter, and a retriever, all rolled into one.

If you have heard the saying 'jack of all trades, master of none', this is KIND of true of the HPR breeds, and that sounds bad but.. it is what it is.

The other breeds that are generally considered to be HPRs are:

German Pointers (wire, long and smooth coated), Large Munsterlanders, Brittany's, Bracco Italiano, Weimeraners and the Hungarian Viszla (wire and smooth). Theres a couple of others that you really won't see in the UK

If you take a look at those breeds you will see that some of them are more spaniel like (the Munsterlander, particularly the Small Munsterlander, the Brittany which was for a while classified as a spaniel but now isn't), some of them are very pointery (obviously the german pointers and also the Weim and the Viszla) and some are more houndy, with the Bracco Italiano having VERY obvious hound origins.

The Spinone in my opinion has its ancestry back with the hounds AND the pointers, if you look at the dogs the french have used for a long time, they have a lot of similarities with the Grand Blue de Gascoigne and the Griffon Bleu de Gascoigne, but opinions differ and the Spinone is a very old breed!

The benefit of the HPR type over the pure retriever/spaniel/setter/pointer is that they tend to be less fixated on doing just ONE job.

Trying to work around a spaniels determination to quarter every inch of ground lest theres something to flush, or a retrievers desire to always be carrying something around can be a bit tiring. Because of the 'all rounder' nature of the HPR breeds they are more likely to be open to other ideas and more easily occupied with a wider range of jobs.

Some of the HPR breeds are very fast and whizzy, particularly the Weimeraner and the Vislas, the Spinone is more laid back and really should be a fair more popular dog as a general pet than he is (certainly hes far better suited to pet life than most Weims or Viszlas and indeed many spaniels).

Expect him to be interested in following his nose, in retrieving things and I would also expect him to be generally laid back and tolerant, if kept amused.

He is fairly easily trained and easily motivated with both food and toys, which is handy as he is a big hairy slobbery type of dog and could easily upset people just by his size and the amount of filth he can track around in his coat.

Yes he slobbers but not to the extent of Newfoundlands and can easily be handle

2hrs of exercise a day is fine and mental stimulation from brain games good too , they are a laid back breed once matured and will happily snooze on the sofa with you. They can be a bit vocal but with training this can be handled.

This is most of what he told me , he then talked to me about coat care and health of the breed and the health tests breeders should do.

I have put them on my list along with flat coat retrievers and will be seeing them at discover dogs. But in the meantime I wanted to ask if anyone knows anything about the breed or can tell me what there like?

I love the Spinoni BUT hate the look of them with a full tail!!   Sorry.   Have you considered the Bracco Italiano which are, to me, rather like a short-haired Spinoni.   The Breed info. on this website will give you some information about them.

Owwww, I have never heard of them but I just did a quick search and they do look like a short haired spinoni

Before I read more about them so are they definitely like the Spinone in temperament and are they still laid back?

I like that the Spinone and Bracco are houndy looking

Spinoni are able to be legally docked

Yes, Spinone and Bracci are quite similar in many ways besides coat type.  But if it's important to have a laid back dog, I don't know if I can recommend them.  They are still HPRs, after all - bred to hunt all day and have an intense interest in finding game.  With high exercise requirements. 

Last season, we saw both Spinone and Bracci in the awards for HPR field trials and working tests - running against Weims, GSPs and Vizslas... So clearly they can hold their own in the field.  Unless you are interested in getting into at least pet gundog training, I'm not sure I'd suggest a HPR breed.

Bracci I have heard are not easy dogs to live with - I don't have experience of them but I have holiday'd/know spins and they are very chilled in my experience.

I have no interest in doing anykind of gundog training or work.

My mom still thinks I should get a Golden retriever as there very calm, laid back and mellow ( she owns showline goldens) I'm not fond of showlines that's why I said no to a golden but I have looked up duel purpose and like the look of duel purpose goldens but I'm not sure I believe there calm, laid back and mellow?

My daughter has two Bracco Italiano and my three Irish Setters are much easier managed than the Bracco. Bracco, while extremely trainable are obsessed with hunting, they shut their ears and go off to entertain themselves and come back when they're good and ready. They are fine about the house, lying around quite happily till it's time for a walk but as soon as they twig you're getting ready to take them out the hooting starts. They are very slobbery and the short spiky hair gets everywhere it's a bloomin  nightmare. Give me half a dozen Irish Setters any day of the week. I love my grandpuppies but I wouldn't have one of my own.

Amy help 're spin?  http://www.italian-spinone.co.uk/living-with-a-spinone

Spins imo arent full on energy, easy to train and very biddable. A mutual friend of mine and Rachelsetters has them and they arent what i call a busy breed. Yes they like to have fun.

Used to walk with a friends male and my Bernese and they were very similar in terms of energy.

Just be careful re eyes as i know that entropion can be a problem in some lines

>Bracco, while extremely trainable are obsessed with hunting, they shut their ears and go off to entertain themselves and come back when they're good and ready.

LOL, this basically describes any working line of gundog if allowed to learn that following scent and exploring the environment is more reinforcing than working with their handler.

No, I wouldn't recommend a 'dual purpose' golden.  I have many goldens in class and those which have any working blood in them are extremely high energy.

If you have no interest in gundogs and working them or doing an active dog sport to replace what they are bred for, why look at gundogs?  Surely there are many other dogs which would better fulfil what you are looking for.

onetwothreefour - what would you recommend then , I'm not just interested in gundogs , I'm happy to look at other breeds but I was told gundogs are the quieter group as I am looking for a breed who is not a constant Barker as my mom who visits everyday or every other day has Tinnitus and some dogs who were constant Barker's spiked her tinnitus that's why she can't go to crufts anymore as it's too loud , she owns Goldens and they rarely bark so are perfect for her but I don't feel they are perfect for me and am struggling as in truth I'm attracted to the pastel group but most I have met have been constantly barking suck as , beared collies, polish  lowland sheepdog, smooth and rough collie. But when I was at crufts they constantly barked and was told that since I'm looking for a quieter breed that none of them were right for me.

It's important that I find a quieter breed know by quiet I mean one who barks when someone comes to the door , if a cat is in garden and once I say quiet or thank you that he knows that's his cue to stop barking what I don't want is a breed who will bark at everything , every little thing he hears or sees. As then my mom won't be able to come round and I have a very strong bond with my mom.  As she already does not see a friend due to her terrier always barking at everything outside and constant barking spikes her Tinnitus , one maybe three barks fine but 10+ or just constant spikes her Tinnitus.

I copy everything I'm looking for again in hope I can get help on what's right for me.

onetwothreefour-

Ok so here goes....

Exercise: I could do around 1hr- 2hrs of physical exercise a day ( plus lots of mental stimulation such as brain toys ect)

Energy level: medium ( calm in the house and calm overal) (even though I want to go on long country walks I don't want a high energy breed as I'm a rather calm person so am looking for a breed who matched being calm and laid back but still enjoys long walks.)

Size: large anywhere from Labrador size to rottweiler size 30kg-50kg

Grooming: I'm fine with any grooming requirements as I'm friends with a groomer and will be giving me mates rates. As well as teaching me the basics.

Coat type: happy with all apart from hairless

Training: easy to moderate ( my future breed does not need to be an easy breed like a lab I'm fine with breeds that are moderate on the training but also am happy for easy to train too)

Playful: I would like a dog who is pretty playful

Barking : I'm used to dogs who only bark for a reason so no more vocal than say a GSD. Not a breed who's prone to be very vocal and again it's important because of my mom as stated above.

Also I'm not a fan of drooling or dogs who are intense and never tire of are always busy and on the go.

Interms of temperament I would like a breed who is friendly, playful, loyal, calm and loving with there families and somewhat friendly with other people too.

Just a point  regarding barking. Totally get that u don't want a dog that contually barks although part of that is down to training .It's not always the bark g it's the frequency .e.g. relative who has goldies also has also has working  cocker. The cockers bark is high pitched and goes right through u even though she doesn't over bark where as the goldies and my fcr doesn't as it's more of a woomf and a low bass sound. So worth taking that into consideration  if it's high on the priorities . I think greyhounds are well worth a look except you will have to watch any small furries around them if they arnt proofed and live with them

Rotties? Suejaw will be able to give info  on them

So a terriers bark could also be high pitched? I know her neighbours rough collies who are always barking caused a spike so I think there's could have been high pitch too. Yet a great Dane she was standing near did not cause a spike neither did a basset hound.

I'm drawn more to the pastel group and hound group , sighthounds I only appeal to the Afghan hound., So greyhound would be a no.

Rotties appeal to me as do most of the working group especially mastiffs ( if it weren't for the dam drool)

But I thought rotties were not great first dogs?

If I had to give my top three important things for my first dog in order of importance it would be

1) the Barking issue cos of my mom's Tinnitus
2) temperament
3) energy level ( I want a dog who will enjoy long walks but when we get home will just chill with me , I DON'T want high energy , intense , never tires or always on the go\busy) and will be happy with just brain games\toys?

> I mean one who barks when someone comes to the door , if a cat is in garden and once I say quiet or thank you that he knows that's his cue to stop barking.

Mostly it is a matter of Consistent , right from the start

I have a breed that is bred to track large game and bark until the hunter arrives, and in trails for the breed the dog when it finds it's quarry is marked on the volume and manner of barking and expected to keep it up, once it ahs it's prey at bay for over an hour. they are expected to track silently, so constant barking is not needed.

I live in a suburban terrace, and have had up to 6 of the breed.  I have to be mindful of the neighbours, especially with multiple dogs, and I also can't stand a barky dog.

Some terrier can be high pitched too. Tinnitus is rather Is rather individual as well which doesn't make it any easier.my mum had tinnitus and never worried about my pomx chi bark and that was high pitched so it's different for different people. An unpleasant condition

What about gsd  they tick your boxes as long as u can manage most of the general public being wary of them and crossing the road. But lovely dogs and their bark is likely to be low enough not to irritate

> It's not always the bark g it's the frequency

I agree, a similar, or slightly larger than my breed is the Samoyed, and their barking is like nails on a blackboard, it's awful, ditto the screechy noise made by the barkless Basenji

Interesting , I was told at crufts that some breeds will just bark no matter what as they like the sounds of there voices?

Such as terriers , some toy breeds and I was told some scent hounds?

I liked Samoyeds but was told they don't stop? Your breed seems suited especially if you have had up to 6 with no issues.

So I'm looking for a breed who's Bark is not high pitched.

What are your breed like brainless? Are they high-pitched or lower, I shall look into GSD.

Ok mom just watched a video ( I know it's not the same as seeing them in the flesh) of a Norwegian elkhound barking and it was to high pitched for her and her ears started to hurt and her T slowly started to go up so we stopped the video 10mins before I showed her a vid of a GSD barking and that was OK. But when I played a video of a masstif or Bernese barking it made no difference to her T. So I definitely think I need a breed were there bark is not high pitched and more an umf noise that is easier on the ear , like a newfs bark for excample more low bass if that makes any sense

My current golden is dual purpose and is very laid back when not out and about, she’s currently snoozing at my feet. She has been very trainable and given that we are in our late 60’s has not been ‘too much’ for us at all, in fact she’s pretty near perfect.

When out on a walk she is very aware of everything and keen to let us know as well, we really worked on recall so have no problems with her disappearing after small furries or birds or deer. If she does chase she responds well to the whistle and returns quickly. She’s a dog that enjoys her walks but is also happy to be quiet around the house and rarely barks. Around the house she is calm and relaxed, but likes to know what her humans are up to and will follow us about.

She picks up on things very quickly and tries to be helpful in some way. A funny for instance: yesterday evening we were sat in the motorhome with Isla cuddled up next to me apparently fast asleep. I said in conversation to my husband ‘I’ll just take Isla out for a wee’. She immediately woke up, jumped off the seat and went to the door looking back as if to say, well come on then.

So I’m afraid I disagree with someone who said they don’t think a dual purpose would be not suitable.

Her breeder used some of the Volhard tests to test the puppies for temperament and in particular how prey driven they were as he wanted to keep at least one pup to replace his older working golden (the grandsire of the puppies). I asked if any of the puppies showed a low prey drive and that was part of the reason why I chose the pups brought home.

So advice is to to talk to the breeders of what ever dog you finally decide upon about your dogs personality and temperament and what sort of dog you are looking for. A good breeder will have learned about the puppies characters over the eight weeks they care for them and will be able to steer you towards the right puppy for you

Umf noise yes that totally makes sense .sounds like Brooke looking for the fox at the back of the garden
I hope to have another toy breed at some point and the one chararacterist I can see as a bother in the three breeds I am interested in is the high pitched bark
.having done bad job of training my previous little one to bark more appropriatly I hope to do better next time

Not sure why breed still that makes an umf noise? That will suit me , at least I'm getting closer.

Was just going to suggest a video, I assume you got Elkhound hunting vid up?

> Spinoni are able to be legally docked

I'd imagine only if, like all breeds, they are going to be worked??   Those I have seen of late, have all had a full tail.

Yes plus one in the home barking too. Shame as there not but an umf type of bark is what I'm looking for, most of the giant breeds seem to do the umf noise , but most drool and Leo's might be a bit to big and there are reasons why I won't have a Bernese. So am unsure what to look at?

When people found out we were getting a flatcoat we had lots of comments about them being ‘hyper’, ‘scatty’ ‘mad’ etc if they weren’t constantly busy or given a job to do. This has not been our experience – our dog is far from hyper.  This is not to say he doesn’t possess the typical flatcoat traits. He loves his walks and is never happier than when he is retrieving a ball or hunting for one that has been hidden for him to find. His desire to chase and retrieve only extends to tennis balls: wildlife is of no interest to him. At home he is very laid back (usually horizontal), whether he has been walked or not.

As for barking, I wish he would on occasions. I managed to lock myself out of the house the other day and spent ages shouting through the letterbox trying to encourage the dog to bark and alert the rest of the family who were in the back garden. All to no avail: he just sat there staring back at me and wagging his tail.

I am no flatcoat expert but have met several flatties since owning ours. Some are trained as working gundogs, some take part in other activities such as agility and some do none of the above. All have a similar temperament to our dog and are certainly not ‘hyper’. As most of them are either from the breeder of our dog or are related to him, it makes me inclined to agree with MamaBas’ comment (in a different tread) that the temperament of a gundog has a lot to do with bloodlines.

Have a look at the breeder section here and see what breeds take your eye. U  and then ask any  questions.
Sticking with retrievers how about duck tolling retriever? All.the ones I've met seem.very nice. I know one.that is a hearing dog for.the deaf. Attractive medium sized gundog.