That's true. I guess until it comes into force nobody knows how it's going to be interpreted. It's not giving people time to prepare though if they don't know if they need  to have a licence and have a litter planned

True, my bitch is due in season in October.

To be honest, though the councils that consider any sale a business now will still do so, and those who have not considered it a business activity until you reach the mandatory licence limit (like my own) will continue to do so.

How could any Council look on taking a litter, say, every couple of years, as most hobby breeders do for their next generation, as a business.   Make money - hah, if only.  We were lucky if we broke even, listing all that's involved in outlay, with perhaps one or two nice puppies going forward

I remember years ago overseas when the Tax people there started what turned into a witch-hunt vs people producing litters without declaring the income.  It all started with some chancer who was producing numerous litters, without declaring the income.   And that then affected us all.   And the equivalent of Inland Rev. became very officious when it came to us listing ALL our outgoings = income!!

I wonder what they will deem to be a profit.

With health testing, stud fees, travel to stud expenses, maintenance of the bitch, advertising litters, taking unpaid leave, CHV, scanning, progesterone, whelping kit and supplies, puppy packs, chipping and vet checks... The list is endless. What about the extra utility bill expenses, the cups of tea and biscuits during visits? How is that all quantifiable?

Who will police the expenses? What can be Included/excluded? Can health tests be included each time you breed?

What happens if you need to take a pup back at some point in it's life? Will you be due a refund because the expense for that litter has gone up? It's a minefield.

How will they expect this to work in practice?

> What can be Included/excluded? Can health tests be included each time you breed?

I have a copy of HMRC - Business Economic Notes 14, (archive snapshot  taken on
12/05/2010) and there is a lot that can be covered as costs. They are no longer on-line (well I can't find them)

The cost of rearing the bitch to breeding age and her upkeep during her productive life.

So if you take two or three litters from a bitch in a 7 year period you will never make a profit from her before she reverts to the status of pet in an average priced breed. I believe they say it costs about a £1000 a year to keep a dog.

Then there are the costs of the litter, wear and tear, on home, vehicle, show expenses count.

Quote:
"3. Breeding of pedigree livestock
The word `Pedigree' is used commonly to denote an animal of pure breeding, one that is registered with the appropriate breed society and inferring formal recognition that it has been bred from a line of registered animals.
Breeding arises from two principal and distinct motivations. Competitive or show breeding is concerned with establishing and/or developing and improving pedigree stock. Income from the sale of offspring or other associated activities is welcome but is neither the only or main motivation. On the other hand commercial pedigree breeding is simply a business venture and is concerned with pedigree only so far as it influences the marketability of offspring. ........................."

"Breeding economics
The principal factors which determine the possible income generated from any breeding unit are basically similar and can be summarised as follows.
•  Breeding capability of female
•  Average size of litter or batch of eggs
•  Length of gestation
•  Average maturity rate, which is age at which offspring become independent.
The young, of course, are not sold or ready to leave the breeder as soon as they are born. The breeder has the task of nurturing the young until they are mature. During this delicate period the breeder will incur
•  cost of feeding, and special dietary requirements
•  veterinary bills for examinations, treatments, vaccinations and so on
•  heating and bedding costs
•  cost of nursing and possible additional staff costs.
Once the litter or fledglings have reached maturity, the breeder may then also incur costs of any pedigree registration and advertising.
This expenditure will be in addition to the normal maintenance and feed expenditure incurred in the breeding establishment, which typically will include most of the following.
•  Operating expenditure and associated costs
o  Cost of new stock
o  Stud fees
o  Food costs
o  Heating costs
o  Maintenance to accommodation
o  Staff wages
o  Transportation costs - attending shows and so on.
•  Miscellaneous small equipment and consumables
o  Sterilising fluids/disinfectants
o  Bedding - ordinary and special bedding for welping
o  Printing stationery and advertising
o  Miscellaneous equipment such as bowls, brushes, towels, bins, collar, leads, and so on.
•  Fees and subscriptions
o  Breeding licence fees
o  Veterinary fees
o  Show/exhibition or other competition fees
o  Journals and other breed circulations
o  Registration fees - Clubs, Societies or Associations, for example, registration of puppy with the Kennel Club.
In considering the level of bona fide business expenditure relating to the establishment, a common problem revolves around the head count of productive animals. That is, animals which are actively used for breeding or showing, or are in any other way essential to and make an active contribution to the establishment.
A substantial number of breeders, especially in the dog world, become very attached to members of their stock and contrary to good business practise may continue to keep and maintain animals that have become non-productive. They, in essence, revert strictly to the status of `pet' rather than a business asset.
Ascertaining the true position appertaining to business stock or private pet, in the majority of cases will not be clear cut and where relevant will require careful consideration of the facts in each individual case.
Hobby or business
Most people involved with breeding, whether it be dogs, cats, pigeons and so on, take their activities seriously. This is not to say, however, that they also take the commercial side of breeding seriously or are motivated by a prime objective to make profits. As is often the case, the process of selective breeding can be a slow and costly exercise. The breeder will retain young that show promise. These will, in turn, depending on their eventual quality, be bred from, further enhancing the blood line and so the process will continue.
Inevitably, the creation of a blood line will result in a gradual increase in stock of animals and ensuing costs. Depending on the success of the breeder, demand should also increase, for use of stud animals or for young stock, thereby increasing the potential for profit.
It must be said, however, that this is not always a natural progression and even if success is eventually achieved, the time scale can be variable. A breeder may have to support a growing establishment, with no realistic prospect of enjoying an equally good inflow of receipts, for the foreseeable future.
The breeder may, of course, have been content to subsidise his/her interest and enthusiasm, but as costs increase, may be forced to consider one of two options.
•  To trim down stock of animals, selling off stock to other breeders or as pets
•  Increasing breeding activities in order to raise the required flow of receipts by selling young into the pet market.
Depending on individual circumstances, such additional breeding purely to increase income may become a permanent feature or be undertaken at different times, either to cover expenditure peaks, fund capital expenditure and so on.
Whether the activities amount to the carrying on of a trade profession or vocation so that the profits are assessable under Cases I or II of Schedule D or is merely a hobby, is a question that can only be determined on consideration of the relevant facts in individual cases.
4. Advertising
The majority of competitive and show breeders will advertise their establishment and champions or winners in order to establish or build up their reputation. These type of specialised breed advertisements are placed in breed directories, annuals and specialist magazines. By so doing, reputable breeders normally can create demand for stud animals and also build up a pool of prospective owners for any future offsprings, thus making any additional advertising unnecessary.
Smaller or one-off breeders may find it necessary to advertise and will use club or specialist magazines and local newspapers.
Extensive advertising may also be undertaken by commercial breeders, usually in local newspapers and magazines such as Exchange and Mart, as also will commercial pet shops.
5. Income from competitive events"

Sorry for such a long cut and paste, but I only have the saved Word document, the archive no longer seems to be publically available.

This should show the Powers that B thought processes.

Thanks brainless.

For me, keeping ex breeding stock - or in other words the girls that are a part of the family is still a grey area. How can the foundations to your line revert back to pets?

I understand that they are no longer being bred from and therefore not generating 'income' themselves BUT a lot of puppy buyers want to see what has come before their pup and keeping generations shows not only a snapshot of what the lines produce before you in the flesh, but also your integrity as a breeder. Selling on/rehoming all ex breeding stock at a price just screams that you are in it for the money and simply making more room.

Yes, sometimes it may be better to rehome a girl who struggles with pack life etc but on the whole, the majority of members here keep their girls for life. They are the 'advert' so to speak.... So how are they not generating interest - which then may turn into a puppy sale?

Or am I completely missing the point?

> your integrity as a breeder. Selling on/rehoming all ex breeding stock at a price just screams that you are in it for the money and simply making more room.

Utterly incorrect.

Everyone is entitled to opinion monkeyj

That's mine.

> Selling on/rehoming all ex breeding stock at a price just screams that you are in it for the money and simply making more room.

and I assume that not routinely doing so, is part of what would show HMRC that a person is a hobby breeder.

Of my 5 three are 10 - 15 years old (my only retired to another home at 5, is now 8), the next is 6, all our spayed except the Maiden 3 year old.

I'm in the same position as you. Two retired, one on her way and the others are too young at the moment. But we are at capacity and will not be rehoming any.

> we are at capacity and will not be rehoming any.

Me too, so plan is to mate Ridl in November at over 3 1/2, and then keep one from a second litter two years later, hoping that will take us down to four then, as second eldest will be 12 in December, but if she is still kicking around then we can live with five for a time.

Ive got what defra deem as breeding for profit and it's NOTHING to do with HMRC.
Basically if you try and stay under the threshold and start 2 litters every 12 months and advertise and its a repeated pattern this is what they deem to be for profit, a 1 off litter every few years doesn't fit the pattern DEFRA are considering trading.
So those who have been breedung 3 or 4 litters under the threshold and then reduce to 2 litters every year then yes that could put you in needing a licence.

However a lot does depend on what individual council wishes to apply.

The point of trading and breeding for profit is exactly the same wording as there is now, no changes to that. Only changes as it stands is the number of litters however councils may decide to tighten up.
Also the kc have to follow the law and they will know what each council area is applying in terms of needing a licence and they will ask for one as they do now with 5 litters or more in a 12 month period for your licence number.  No licence no registering of litters.

rather than licensing the 2 litters per year breeder a registration number should be issued by council so they are under the radar aswell so to speak.the effort to be licensed is too much finacially in lot of cases.ie planning permission and change of use.its just too much and rather crazy tbf on the small homebreeder who breeds couple of litters per year.also everyone should have to display hmrc code on their advertisements like france.

> and I assume that not routinely doing so, is part of what would show HMRC that a person is a hobby breeder.

The assumption here is again that re-homing retired adults, even routinely, is necessarily done for profit. And it is wrong.

A hobby breeder can rehome their adults purely for the desire to ensure they lead the best lives possible - and that the new generation which is remaining with the breeder to carry the line further also lives the best lives possible. The best lives possible means lots of individual attention, lots of opportunities for the dog to take part in many of their owner activities, much greater chance of being fed the best food because consideration of expense of having to feed the pack no longer apply, and so on.

And yes the above is true when the breeder charges money when rehoming their adults, this in fact indicates that the breeder is responsible. Needless to say the chance of making any profit would be virtually non-existent...

> Also the kc have to follow the law and they will know what each council area is applying in terms of needing a licence and they will ask for one as they do now with 5 litters or more in a 12 month period for your licence number.  No licence no registering of litters.

The KC is not a body for enforcing the law. There is no bar for KC to register the litter where the breeder is unlicensed, just as there is nor bar for KC to register the litter when the breeder failed to microchip their pups for example.

Of course they can choose to to so, to encourage breeders to comply with the law, but they don't have to.

They said they have to abide by the law and if a council sets a limit and so has defra they cant be seen to allowing something pass through which is essentially breaking the law and they would be complicit.
This was when i called them up asking a few questions. Its as it is now 5 or more litters in a 12 month period they ask for a licence number

The KC can never be *legally* complicit unless they actively encourage breeders to break the law. Registering dogs regardless of whether they were bred in compliance with a license is not such active encouragement, it is simply registering the dogs. In other words, there is nothing illegal in wishing to maintain a record of purebred dogs in the country, as opposed to a record of legally bred purebred dogs in the country.

But of course failing to acknowledge the distinction between law abiding breeders and those who could care less, will make the KC complicit *in public eyes*,  unless they have a good reason to fail to make that distinction. And the KC needs to maintain their image of the body which encourages responsible breeding and so on. That is why they may choose to ask these questions, refuse registrations when the litter was bred illegally, make registration conditional upon the breeder microchipping their puppies and similar. But legally, they don't have to.

> have a copy of HMRC - Business Economic Notes 14, (archive snapshot  taken on <br />12/05/2010) and there is a lot that can be covered as costs. They are no longer on-line (well I can't find them)

Found them: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/bens/ben14.htm#c

Shocked with this post and all it entails for hobby breeders. 

Re the puppies away from the mum at 5 weeks ..... 1 of my springers (very domesticated) left her litter at about 10 days.... thankfully they lived in the home and were nice and warm but I had to force her to sit and feed them.  She looked after them well, kept them clean etc but just wanted to be beside me all the time, my mum has been breeding/showing dogs for over 40 yrs and on her advice (we had never had this before) I got puppies onto solids at 3 1/2 weeks and they thrived thank god.  Litter she had following yr she stayed with them about same time, she is a very relaxed some might say lazy dog :-).

> on her advice (we had never had this before) I got puppies onto solids at 3 1/2 weeks and they thrived thank god.

To be honest thst is pretty noormal, mine satart on solids as soon as they show an interest in Mums food, or first taste at 18 days (have ben known to start as soon as eyes open).

Then it is entirely up to Mum how much time she spends with them and how often and for how long she feeds.

They can get an awful lot on board in a short time when nursing.

I had one smallish litterof 4 where Mum seemed just to pop in and out, and was cross with her, only to find when weighing that they were oputting on weight at a very fast rate.

http://www.petcare.org.uk/index.php/licensing-regulations-2018
its been published now

Thanks for this.  I am still unclear though.  I am considering having a litter at the end of this year (last litter was 5 years ago).  I will not be giving away the pups for free and will be charging the new owners the going rate.  Does this mean I need to get a licence for this one off litter?

What is the definition of commercial breeding as I can't see it.is that anyone who sells a puppy or more than that ?

It would seem these are the relevant bits

(a)  makes any sale by, or otherwise carries on, the activity with a view to making a profit - the only way to avoid this would be to give puppies away or keep them as stated here

1.  Breeders who can provide documented evidence, if requested, that none of the puppies were sold or that they kept all of the puppies themselves. Documented evidence will need to include records of the new owners of all of the puppies and provide details on why there was no transaction involved (including in kind).

6. Breeders that breed a small number of puppies (i.e. less than 3 litters per year), and
that sell them without making a profit.

and how can you know if you will  make a profit on one litter?  My last one only had 5 pups, one of which I kept and the costs far exceeded the money I received, however, that may have not been the case if there had been, say, 11 pups.

Thank u .

But its the point doing it with the view to making a profit and a 1 off litter i doubt anyone will do it just for money if they are doing things right and have the breed at heart.  So they wont be having the litter for the purpose of making money

> the only way to avoid this would be to give puppies away or keep them

I doubt the mere fact of selling the puppies is going to make the breeder a business. The way it reads to me, "makes any sale by, or otherwise carries on, the activity with a view to making a profit" the focus here is on intention i.e. "with the view to". So if the reason for breeding, and then selling the puppies, is to make the profit, then the activity would be classed as a business and licensable regardless of the number of litters you breed.

Unfortunately despite its proud name "Business test" the Part 1 of the Schedule doesn't provide any test at all. It simply says that "the circumstances which a local authority must take into account in determining whether an activity is being carried on in the course of a business include, for example..." Very typical of our legislators when they couldn't come up with a test but felt that "something" must be included...

So what happens if the reason for breeding is something other than profit? The guidance notes and Hansard debates mention HMRC definition of trade as relevant, ultimately however it is up in the air so far as the Regulations are concerned - and as such it will be possible to bring the council to court to dispute their interpretations.

Interestingly showing dogs is also covered by the Regulations and it will require a license if the person is deemed to show dogs as part of the business. Think professional handlers in the first place I guess, but the same ambiguity is here regarding the non-existent business "test". Reading Hansard:

>"...some of the animals at these shows become very valuable if they manage to win championships. I have not found an answer in what is before us as to whether they would qualify and need a licence, or whether they are not regarded as a business, although they might be a business. It is fairly fine line and I would be grateful for some clarification."

It will be interesting to see what happens when the councils start applying the Regs....

It appears that anyone making £1000 profit or more from a single litter will need a license. So the question is what counts as profit. I've heard people say you cannot take expenses into account as hobbies are expected to cost you money. I am so glad I'm booked into a  Trevor Cooper seminar in October!

> Everyone is entitled to opinion monkeyj. That's mine.

I never said otherwise, only that your opinion is wrong.

>It appears that anyone making £1000 profit or more from a single litter will need a license. So the question is what counts as profit. I've heard people say you cannot take expenses into account as hobbies are expected to cost you money.

I think that anyone making £1000 profit from a single litter may need a licence. I'm pretty sure though that you can't have a cake and eat it, if the person is seen as engaging in hobby then they cannot be classed as a business, and the other way around.

HMRC guidance on the business test: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-business-non-business/vbnb22000

and also their nine badges of trade: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim20205

On a related issue re business, what a bout Dog clubs that run shows???? Are they a business, some of the big shows have a tidy reserve, and of course they charge us punters to enter????

And so is yours....

> And so is yours....

I didn't express an opinion, but a fact.

It is wrong to assume that "selling on/rehoming all ex breeding stock at a price just screams that you are in it for the money and simply making more room" due to the fact that many breeders rehome their adult dogs purely for the desire to ensure the dogs lead the best lives possible, and that the new generation which is remaining with the breeder to carry the line further also lives the best lives possible. The best lives possible meaning lots of individual attention, lots of opportunities for the dog to take part in many of their owner activities, much greater chance of being fed the best food because consideration of expense of having to feed the pack no longer apply, and so on. And that charging money when rehoming the adults indicates that the breeder is responsible. Needless to say the chance of making any profit is virtually non-existent.

> On a related issue re business, what a bout Dog clubs that run shows???? Are they a business, some of the big shows have a tidy reserve, and of course they charge us punters to enter????

They could be a business, but for the purposes of Regulations it doesn't matter as the Clubs/shows are not covered by this law. It appears to be aimed at people/organisations who keep animals more or less long-term (as opposed to welcoming them for a day or two) to ensure the animals' welfare while in this keepership. In the guidance among activities which fall outside the scope of the licensing are:

"Animal shows where animals are exhibited (e.g. Crufts, animal trade shows). If individual participants are in the business of exhibiting animals and receive a fee for doing so, they will need to have a licence, but the show itself does not require a licence as it is not responsible for the animals exhibited."

(Just tagging on to the end.) Advice from the KC:
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/1159843/breeding-regulations-faq.pdf?utm_campaign=Breeder+eNews+-+July+2018&utm_source=emailCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=

It is interesting that the KC mentions nothing about the license for showing, it's not as widespread as in the US but we do have handlers who charge money and they are pretty much seen as professional handlers so clearly a business....

the kc ARE nothing to do legally with AAL they are just a dog registry and have no legal powers.in the guidance for the AAL which will be governed by your local authority there is a section on exhibiting animals which states if you are in the business of showing dogs a license will be needed.the kc do not mention it aswell as the AAL is not currently live and with not be till october the 1st.your local authorty are the law regarding the new licensing regime.even kc assured breeders are not exempt from obtaining a breeders license if it applies to them .if they give puppies away or keep them all and have documented evidence available to be inspected by LAand they do less than 3 litters they are exempt from the license.otherwise they be classed as been in the business of selling dogs and require a license if they fail to get a license for 3 litters or above or 2 or less and be in the business of selling dogs they will not be able to breed legally.

No but they had said if someone needs a licence like they do now on the more than 5 litters they require a licence to register litters.

> there is a section on exhibiting animals which states if you are in the business of showing dogs a license will be needed.the kc do not mention it aswell as the AAL is not currently live and with not be till october the 1st.

Well I was wondering because the KC did provide advice on licences for breeding, but not on licences for showing.....

> if they give puppies away or keep them all and have documented evidence available to be inspected by LAand they do less than 3 litters they are exempt from the license.otherwise they be classed as been in the business of selling dogs and require a license

This is not what the Regulations say. The mere fact of selling the puppies (as opposed to keeping them or giving them away) does not make the breeder a business.

This is not what the Regulations say. The mere fact of selling the puppies (as opposed to keeping them or giving them away) does not make the breeder a business.

under AAL regulations if you make a profit or intend to make a profit deemed as over £1000 per year you are deemed to be in business and therefore need a license irrelavant to the number of litters even one litter.

this is in the businness test section.

> under AAL regulations if you make a profit or intend to make a profit deemed as over £1000 per year you are deemed to be in business and therefore need a license irrelavant to the number of litters even one litter. this is in the businness test section.

But again, the mere fact of selling the puppies does not mean the breeder is making a profit or intends to make a profit.... That is why it is possible to breed one or two litters per year, sell the puppies, and not require a license for doing it.

I'm not sure what AAL regulations you are talking about, I understood that this thread is about The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018. In these latter regulations and guidance which accompanies them, there is no such deeming provision in the business test - selling the puppies and making over £1000 profit does not necessarily mean that the breeder will be classified as business. Instead it is a consideration to take into account, together with other circumstances, in determining whether or not the breeder should be regarded a business and therefore require license.

AAL is animal activities license

making £1000 profit plus  does come under hmrc as been in the business. whether you intend to or not .the government s formal guidelines april 2016 formalised this.its all on the business test in scope and out of scope in the guidance notes.therefore you can breed 2 litters per year and not be in the business of selling dogs if you do not make 1000 year profit and can proove it.obviously its still income and you must declare it to hmrc.

http://www.petcare.org.uk/index.php/licensing-regulations-2018

I have also noticed this only applies to England. Will it become across the board in Wales, N Ireland and Scotland?

2. Will I require a dog breeding licence?
Currently dog breeders require a licence if they breed 5 litters per year or more, or they run a business that breeds and sells dogs. Under the new regulations dog breeders will require a licence if they breed 3 litters per year or more, or run a business that breeds and sells dogs.

Basically the only real change from current wording is the number of litters, anyone breeding three or more litters automatically needs a Licence, where until October it is still 5.

The issue is, and has always been the interpretation by LA's of the "or they run a business that breeds and sells dogs."

Brainless it also states if you make a profit of more than £1000. So in most breeds you would need a license to sell just one or two puppies in a 12 month period. There seems to be a LOT of confusion as to whether you can deduct expenses or not -many saying no, as it will count as a hobby.

> its all on the business test in scope and out of scope in the guidance notes.therefore you can breed 2 litters per year and not be in the business of selling dogs if you do not make 1000 year profit and can proove it.

It is necessary to read precisely what the guidance says.

>In scope criteria (activities that fulfil one or more of the following criteria are subject to licensing):

>1. Anyone breeding three or more litters of puppies per year (unless they can show that none of the puppies have been sold).
>2. Anyone breeding puppies and advertising a business of selling them, as defined under the business test outlined above. This is irrespective of the number of litters produced per year. This is not restricted to registered businesses – individuals can also be classed as a business depending on the extent of their activities.
>3. Factors that should be considered when determining whether someone is “advertising a business” include:
>The number, frequency and/or volume of sales - systematic and repeated transactions using the same means of advertising are likely to indicate a commercial activity.
>High volumes of animals sold or advertised for sale could indicate a business.
>Low volumes of animals sold or advertised could indicate a business where high sales prices or large profit margins are involved.
>High range and variability in the breeds traded. A wide variety of breeds being advertised could indicate the commercial nature of the activity.
>High numbers of advertisements of puppies for sale, including on classified websites, could indicate commercial behaviour, even where there is no actual sale taking place via the internet. This could be high numbers of advertisements at any one time or over a short period of time, and/or regularly.
>Advertising through a variety of sites, forums or media could indicate a commercial activity.

As you can see, none of the above says that making profit of £1000 and over will necessarily result in the breeder classed as a business. Now looking at the out of scope criteria:

>Out of scope criteria (activities that fulfil one or more of the following criteria are not subject to licensing):

>...
>6. Breeders that breed a small number of puppies (i.e. less than 3 litters per year), and that sell them without making a profit.
>
>Guideline indicators of “out of scope” activities - the following may assist consideration of the criteria listed above:
>
>The Government announced in Budget 2016 a new allowance of £1,000 for trading income from April 2017. Anyone falling under this threshold would not need to be considered in the context of determining whether they are a business.

As such, breeding one or two litters per year, selling the puppies and making less than £1000 in profit, is likely to result in the breeder being classed as a hobby. Breeding one or two litters per year, selling puppies and making £1000 or more in profit, could result in the breeder being classed as a business, but not necessarily will.