Hi guys, could you put me to right direction please?
I deposited for a Maltese male puppy back in november last year from the Czechs Republic, waited for him 4 and a half months when he could have been brought here to the UK, breeder seemed nice and helpful, the pup was fine, other than I was missing one of his testicles (I requested the pup for breeding) so I thought I take him to the vet in the next couple of weeks to check that out. He came in the beginning of April this year so he was here with us for 3 months, when today suddenly he collapsed. He was fine a few minutes later but had urine around him and was crying. Also had an almost white gum. Then it happened again within 40 minutes so I took him to the ER vet who said that he has a level 2 (from 6) heart murmur and what I described as he thought having a congenital problem rather than a fit or anything else. Told me to take him home and watch and if it happens take a video of him. It happened again but much more severe like an hour later and he had blue tongue, gasping for air then stopped, we thought he was gone. Straight back to vet where vet said its best to put him down as he doesnt have much chance of getting better at all and from video it looks very severe. So unfortunately he was put to sleep :((. Also was checked earlier in the afternoon for a retained testicle vet said it was almost like he wasnt developed properly because one of his testicles could not been found anywhere!! Now breeder does not believe that he was gone so quick, saying she did not know about these problems!! (he was supposed to be vet checked numerous times to come to the UK), she wants me to do an autopsy at an organisation, she wants me to go to!!! What are my rights please? Can I take her to court? If so how and how much would it cost me? Can I threaten her at all?

Problem is that in effect your not buying a finished item, but something that is still in the process of being built so to speak. There are unknowns and risks that cannot be foreseen with any living thing.

As long as pup had a clean bill of health when he left the breeder, and there is no reason to suspect there was any history of heart issues in the parents then really it is pretty much bad luck.

This very hot weather with a small breed, may have turned a very mild issue into a serious one depending on the contributing stressors involved.  Overheating exercise etc.

If this was a Private sale, (most dog breeders worth their name breed as part of their exhibiting/sport hobby  activities) and not someone in the course of business, then really it is buyer beware, just the same is you bought a second car from a Private person as opposed to a dealer.

Even if you had grounds to take action the costs would be quite prohibitive.

Why did you agree to take a pup that did not have both testicles if you wanted him for breeding? That seems very odd to me, and for the breeder to agree to such a sale. Sure some drop their testicles late, but really they should both be there at 10 weeks and it's not worth taking a risk when you import -also I wouldn't want to breed from a late developer as it can lead to more the same.

A grade 2 murmur is not really a lot, but obviously not something you want for breeding. It is however not likely to cause problems. Sounds like the pup possibly had epilepsy, and it's perfectly possible that there had been no signs before you got him, no matter how many vet checks.

Whether you can sue or not -no idea. Did you get a contract or a guarantee stating anything? Some breeders abroad seem to; when I imported from Belgium I got a signed statement from the breeder saying the dog did have two testicles and correct bite. You could contact their kennel club. I do think the breeder's request for an autopsy is understandable -they want to know what happened and why. A congenital problem is simply something the pup was born with, it could be anything, and it doesn't have to be genetic.

What are my rights please? Can I take her to court?

It is a civil court (common law) matter in UK & UK civil courts have no jurisdiction outside UK, so, no you cannot take her to court here in UK.

farkywelly
I deposited for a Maltese male puppy back in november last year
.
Euro
It's crossed my mind as to 'how' 'what means' you paid for the pup, if you paid by a Visa Direct debit then you can get your money back by doing an indemnity on them, my bank is Santander & they put the money back into your account straight away & then do the investigation, Visa would just take it back out of sellers account after their investigation. I don't know if all banks act so quickly.

Did you know that the pup was missing a testicle before you received him here in the UK though?  From your post, it sounded like you only realised this when you got him here in the UK.

I think the missing testicle issue is a totally separate issue to the other health issues you've mentioned and what ultimately happened, though.  If you accepted him here with a missing testicle for 3 months, then it seems you accepted that situation and you can't go back to the breeder and say 'and I want more money back because he has a missing testicle' - because you accepted this.  If, the first time you saw the puppy, you immediately contacted the breeder when you learnt he had a missing testicle and demanded a refund or replacement or something... then I think you'd be perfectly entitled to something if you had previously made it clear you wanted the pup for breeding.

As for what happened:  On the one hand, you say he had a grade 2 murmur.  But as others have said, that by itself doesn't really explain his symptoms.  Instead, you had him PTS for some undiagnosed condition (albeit on veterinary advice).  Personally, I would have wanted to know the reason and would have asked for a referral to a specialist centre where he could have a diagnosis made (as long as he was stable and not suffering and this could be done quickly before it happened again).  I wouldn't have just had him PTS on the hunch of an ER vet with an undiagnosed problem, just because I've had many vets' 'hunches' be completely wrong in the past and ended up being happy I didn't go with the recommended course.

As a courtesy to the breeder, I would request his medical notes from your vet and send them on to her, so she can read for herself what happened and see that it was done on vet advice.  I'd also give permission to the vet to speak directly with the breeder so the vet can answer her questions and explain why they advised PTS.  Hopefully this will take you as someone to blame, out of things. 

She cannot 'make' you get an autopsy done at a specified organisation - but if she is paying for it, why not??  I'd agree to the autopsy but she would need to pay for it, because it's her who wants it done.  It may be important for her future breedings, to understand what happened to this pup and investigate whether it is congenital.  This sounds like a responsible breeder who cares, to me.

I don't think there's any reason to be talking about courts and costs and threats - why are you even using that language, in having these discussions with her?  She has lost a puppy that she has bred and placed overseas a long way from her, and you have lost a puppy that you thought would be a companion for a long time.  You have both lost something, and now you need to work together to see how to proceed in a way that satisfies you both - not be talking of courts and threats!

No, i didnt know any of these problems, she even said he is fully healthy and knew I needed him for breeding. There was no contract signed though, only facebook messenger conversations. There was no time for sending him to a specialist as he detoriated within hours yesterday. I did not want a post mortem as it was £300 and the breeder wanted me to send the body of his to a specialist she specified!! So even if I would have paid the £300 for post mortem, the breeder would not have accepted it, and this puppy already costed me around £2000 so was unwilling to spend more. I went in this morning to my vet and asked for a print of the medical report, which I sent over to the breeder proving what have happened. She still insists on post mortem (which now can't be done) and says that the dog was perfectly fine when he left. I have contacted the vet who signed his pet passport and looked after him before he arrived, but of course no answer.

I paid via Visa Debit card, not sure if I could do what you saying. I will phone them and try. Thank you

I paid via Visa Debit card, not sure if I could do what you saying

I am 'meaning', in UK law a dog (& horses) are legally classed as 'property', from whats been said the 'property' was (legal terms) 'Not of merchantable quality & suitable for the purpose intended'...European law says 'Goods must be fit for purpose', when you received the 'property' (pup) it was not fit for purpose on top of which, according to your expert (vet) the dog was not 'fit' enough to support its' own life let alone anything else.

If your bank is Santander take your vets report & a copy with you, copy for them, tell them you want an indemnity on the deal, you get a refund immediately, BUT, I don't know if there is a ceiling limit that, Visa do their own investigation but they're known (Ive heard) are long drawn out it probably because it has millions of users. 

You need to get moving very quickly so it cannot be claimed something happened at your end (after you got it).
.

The pup should have been seen by a vet for a health certificate before he left his own country (it it's anything like what my friend had to do before she exported her pup). If this was done and nothing found then the puppy was indeed in good health when it left the breeders. Without knowing what it was you can't know what caused it, it could be something genetic that didn't show up at time of sale or it could be caused by something external, it could be its linked to the heart mumer it might not have been. I've know of some pups who a vet a said it has a heart mumrer for the same pup to be checked by another vet and giving an all clear.

Without the autopsy its unknown what caused the pups condition so blame can't be layed with anyone. The breeder can't make you do it or do it with a specific place if you didn't want it done. But as you were hoping for court action you would of needed to know that the condition was to know the cause  and if the breeder was liable or not, so you should have gotten the autopsy. As it stands now it could of been anything so you can't prove the breeder is any any fault for this aS it was sold healthy and was fine for 3 months with you before it got this mysterious problem.

So the breeder never Informed you the pup didn't yet have 2 decended testicals? This would be your only standing point, if you brought the puppy for breeding but was sent one that only had 1 testical without your prior knowledge of this then you could say the pup was not fit for purpose. Did you not take this up with the breeder as soon as you got the puppy? Does the breeder have proof the pup had two when it left them (they can go up and down but if ur vet couldn't even find the other one I'd wonder if that's likely to be the case).

When a friend exported a ISDS/KC dual registered BC abroad the KC paperwork for the export pedigree had a veterinary section to state the dog had 2 testicles, I would presume the Czech equivalent would have to have the same to be accepted by the UK KC.

No I have a friend who imported two litter mates.  She knew all along that the male just had one testicle but he needed a home and was sold for a much reduced price and she uses him for agility. I've just checked and he is KC reg'd here.

> What are my rights please? Can I take her to court? If so how and how much would it cost me? Can I threaten her at all?

No. Whether or not the breeder had the puppy health checked, as a buyer you were expected to bring the puppy to your vet in the first few days of the puppy's arrival, to register it with the practice and to ascertain the puppy's health (especially given that the puppy travelled and all).

If you did this, your vet would have listened to the puppy's heart as it is the standard part of the puppies' health check, and had there been problems the vet would have informed you there and then, and you could have taken it up with the breeder. If you didn't do this, or no problems were discovered during the initial health check, then you have no grounds to sue the breeder three months later.

The only possible "rights" against the breeder you could have in this situation, would be discovering that the puppy was suffering from an inheritable condition, and that either one/both of the puppy's parents were suffering from this condition and the breeder was aware of this, or in the breeder's country it was expected to test for this condition prior to breeding. This however is a non-starter as you don't know what the puppy was suffering from and it is too late to find out.

What I meant was that the export pedigree records that the dog is/isn't entire as non entirety is disqualifying fault under FCI rules & possibly this is noted on FCI equivalent of the UK export pedigree. The KC will not accept a request for an export pedigree without the vet part being completed.

As there are no disqualifying faults in the UK breed standards whether or not a dog is entire is not recorded by the KC & would not affect registration.

then you have no grounds to sue the breeder three months later.

If the dog arrived here with its tail missing, 5 legs & a monkeys head in place of a dogs head the OP still would not have any rights to sue someone in Czek because in civil law UK has no jurisdiction outside uk & the sale of goods act or any other consumer rights laws (the relevant act(s) in this case) does not extend outside UK.
.

I have exported and imported and in both cases the Kennel club Paperwork (export pedigree) has a section to be completed by a Vet to confirm entirety.

If you were importing hoping to breed surely you would have had the kennel club paperwork, or a Vet health certificate noting it?

> What I meant was that the export pedigree records that the dog is/isn't entire as non entirety is disqualifying fault under FCI rules & possibly this is noted on FCI equivalent of the UK export pedigree. The KC will not accept a request for an export pedigree without the vet part being completed.

I wonder if that is different for different places. When my friend applied for one for her pup that was going abroad we did it online and it said while you should have a vet sign to say the pup has 2 that you could apply without it but it could result in the foreign kc refusing it. The owner hasn't come back to say there was an issue and I know they planned to show and breed.

>No, i didnt know any of these problems, she even said he is fully healthy and knew I needed him for breeding. There was no contract signed though, only facebook messenger conversations.

Without a contract, you don't really have a leg to stand on, legally.  And as I said above, you had the puppy in the UK with one testicle for about 3 months before disaster struck - you didn't go to the breeder and demand to know where there was only one testicle and try to address that situation when you took ownership and learned of it.  As a result, I don't think you can do anything about the one testicle situation - even if you did make it clear to her that you wanted him for breeding.

>There was no time for sending him to a specialist as he detoriated within hours yesterday. I did not want a post mortem as it was £300 and the breeder wanted me to send the body of his to a specialist >she specified!!

Well, the only thing wrong here is that the breeder seemed to want you to pay.  I would have said - sure, have a postmortem, wherever you want - but you pay for it.  Since the breeder wants it, that seems only fair.

>She still insists on post mortem (which now can't be done) >and says that the dog was perfectly fine when he left. 

Of course, that is probably the case - especially if he was vet checked to leave the country.  If she had a pup with a known health problem, it would be far easier to home him without a vet check locally or in the same country, than to sell him overseas and see him have to go through vet checks - as well as keep hold of him till later, due to the Pet Passport scheme.  It's very unlikely she would CHOOSE to sell a pup with a known health problem overseas - and that, if she had done so, she would then be requesting a postmortem on him.  Surely she would not want whatever it is, to be found, if it is a known problem??  A post-mortem would be the last thing she would want, if she was fiddling you. 

Sorry, but sh*t happens.  Pups can be healthy at time of sale and then not be, later.  She sounds like a responsible breeder to me and is wanting answers on a pup she has bred...

Hopefully your puppy was insured, so you can now claim on full purchase price from your insurer??

If you read the ad at link, the 'contract' *offered would be valid & could be heard & judged by a UK county court judge in a UK court if one or the other party breached the contract in any way, despite the fact the, despite the fact the pups are of non UK origin.

https://bit.ly/2ISJ88H
.
*People need to absorb & be  very careful of every word of a contract, if a breach is 'claimed' judges go on every word.

> I've just checked and he is KC reg'd here.

He would be registered but the Export Vet health part does have a section to confirm (or not) entirety.

> Sorry, but sh*t happens.  Pups can be healthy at time of sale and then not be, later.  She sounds like a responsible breeder to me and is wanting answers on a pup she has bred...

Two years ago I sold a puppy to a knowledgeable family, the owners both vets and the mother who pup spent days with a former breeder, and now a behavioural specialist and trainer.

On the hottest day of the year with soaring temperatures on picking pup up from Mums she was a bit lethargic had some sickness and diarrhoea, they put her on a drip but she didn't make it.  Autopsy found nothing wrong, but she had a complete circulatory collapse, probably brought on by the heat, who knows she may have fallen asleep in a  hot spot unnoticed etc, Just 14 1/2 weeks old.  We were all heartbroken.

Got you Tommee, sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

Facebook Replies:

Annaliese Britton says:  I would ask the vet to send the dog for a private autopsy so you 1. Have answers for your own piece of mind and 2. If you do go to court you have evidence of a problem due to the breeding and should have been picked up before the pup was exported to you, if you had a contract with the breeder it would also possibly invalid that giving you a stronger claim

Emma Judson says: I would ask her to pay for the autopsy, it is not cheap and it is for her benefit not yours. Then I'd proceed based on that - but its quite possible there was nothing she could have known or done and if thats the case you can't sue her. Im not sure what you want to threaten her for, or with - did YOUR vets pick up on anything when YOU had the puppy checked?? If not, why would you think hers would?

Julie Bon Bon Mutimer  says: This is a very sad story. Unfortunately not all puppy’s are born healthy just like people I did all revelant health checks. A year ago my dog had a beautiful litter of puppies which were vet checked and seemed fit and healthy. Unknown to us one of the Male puppies had a liver shun and the family decide to put him to sleep. As a breeder I was so upset I spent so much time with him it was devastating news. Luckily this was covered by the KC Insurance I took out. Are you covered by this. Just to add all his brothers and sisters are 1 years old and thriving.

Suzanne Ellisson says:  Very sad and am sorry you have lost your puppy. Firstly, you need an autopsy to ascertain exactly why the puppy has died; retained testicles maybe inherited condition. Secondly, if he did have a congential heart condition, are there tests available in the breed? If so, are the parents tested? If not, the breeder maybe liable but as you wanted to breed it could be said you did not take due care and attention in researching before purchase. Either way, think you need to seek legal advice but definitely have the autopsy, your insurance may pay for this.