Via social media, I've come into contact with a lot of breeders in the US.  The 'done thing' there, seems to be to leap to an AI at the first opportunity.  If the stud and bitch can't get it together, they just AI.  I'm really worried about this continuing trend and the possibility of it spreading to the UK more. 

I'm worried because 1) there is a lot of valuable info about how to successfully breed dogs which isn't getting shared or used or kept current in the minds of breeders and passed down from one breeder to the next if people are just moving to AI at the first opportunity.  Things like - substantial height differences between stud and bitch and how to accommodate those.  Bitches who protest too much and whose protests need to be ignored, versus those who are not-ready (how to tell the difference and what to do).  Bitches who may need to be supported or held up during mating.  Where a mating should be carried out so the stud feels confident.  And loads more of that 'old time' knowledge which people inherit from their mentors.

And:  2) If we just AI any dog which can't breed naturally, then we risk (long-term) passing on the genes for dogs which lack the mating behaviour to procreate their species - and potentially end up in a situation where we have to AI more and more frequently and essentially become dependent on that.  

I'm not anti-AIs - IF the dog is dead, or abroad, or if that particular gene combo is really needed and the mating HAS to happen for the benefit of the breed - or if the dog has mated successfully in the past....

But to AI maiden bitches and virgin stud dogs just because they can't get it together, seems insane on the scale it is happening.  In the US, it is considered best practice with a mating approaching to be "ready" to AI, either with your own AI kit or with vet help. 

So - I worry about knowledge being lost amongst breeders, and dogs which can't mate naturally spreading those genes....

In my breed, in the UK, I've never even HEARD of an AI being done unless the stud is dead.  If the dogs can't mate naturally - then shucks, it just aint gonna happen!!  Try again next time, or try with another stud or a more experienced stud....  

What do others think?!

I don't know of any CD breeders who use AI.

It's expensive and not very successful due to a lack of practice over here I think.

As the experience grows and price falls so will the amount its used over here. As long as the kc doesn't water down the current rules I don't have a problem with it.

We already have breeds that struggle to whelp naturally, we don't want breeds that can't mate naturally.

Well, exactly Kenny. But I worry that's where we're headed and it's only a matter of time...

Agree, and was very disappointed to see the Kennel club had watered down it's AI regulations (albeit very quietly). 

Formerly you could not AI with the semen of  a dog alive and living in the UK, except I think in Deerhounds over a certain veteran age. Also the sire had to have sired naturally and the bitch could not be a maiden.

Now we have:
"The Kennel Club will accept an application to register a litter produced by AI from either overseas dogs or those domiciled in the United Kingdom but the AI must be declared on the litter application form.

Litters produced by AI from maiden dogs or bitches will be accepted, but their progeny should produce a natural litter before they themselves are involved in an AI breeding. If the sire or dam subsequently produces a litter naturally the restriction on AI for the progeny no longer applies."

I have a very natural breed who handle their matings sensibly, able to with rely on studs learning their craft and mating bitches when they feel they are ready, though some males never get it, (to my mind they are best left out of the gene pool, ditto bitches who just won't allow mating).

Yet in my breed in the USA it is as you describe, with many males lacking in Libido, or who try to mate whatever the stage of the bitches season, or bitches that will not stand for mating whatever the day!!!  As we rely on importing new blood, often from USA rather than Scandinavia due to language etc, this worries me.

I have noticed with being in the breed for generations that mating behaviour and maternal behaviour are definitely inherited.

The thing I don't 'get', is that statistically the chances of AI working are much lower than with a natural mating.  The same goes for humans - the chance of an IUI (intra-uterine insemination) working each cycle are WAY lower than the chance of natural sex working - given equal opportunities in all other ways (timing etc). 

So, in giving up so easily on pursuing a natural mating they are actually opting for something which statistically is less effective and works less well - all just so they can get some semen in the right place and FEEL LIKE they have achieved something. 

It's bonkers, to me. 

Speaking as one who has lived in N.America, doing an A1 was done a lot, but mainly to hopefully reduce the risk of infection IF the Stud Dog was popular.   It was also the case that if a long journey was involved, at least doing an A1 meant 'something' was there if a natural mating wasn't achievable, for some reason.  This was the case with one of my bitches.  Having travelled from Toronto to Pennsylvania the male really wasn't interested much as she was flagging like mad and everything told me she was ready.   In the end she sighed, turned away from him and sat down.  She was clearly unimpressed with him.  The next morning we took them both to his owner's vet (with her permission - she had to go to work) and after testing my bitch for where she was in her heat, a collection was done and she was AId.   At least we came home with 'something'.   As it happened only 2 pups so we went back a year later and it all went to plan that time.   5 puppies.

I agree that ideally a natural mating should always be hoped for.   Is this lack of libido inherited, or acquired?   Used to be that the KC wouldn't accept anything other than from a natural mating - but how would they KNOW as registrations are taken on trust!!

> statistically the chances of AI working are much lower than with a natural mating.

Not with fresh or chilled semen, results almost as good as natural mating. Materials used have to be chosen wiyj care as some plastics etc kill sperm.

Maybe its down to logistics, easy to forget just how big America is

Inverness - Southampton 585 miles (10 hour drive)

London - Moscow 1,801 miles (32 hour drive)

New York - Los Angeles 2,777 (41 hour drive)

Figures from google map directions.

What are the success stats for AI in America ? Costs involved ? Last minute booking of flights and hotels can't be cheap, stress of flight on a bitch can't be good or predictable and would reduce the conception rate I'm guessing.

BTW, we did go back the next morning, after having the AI done, in the hope of getting a natural mating but it wasn't to be - quite possibly she'd gone over in any case.......   Many breeder would do an AI initially, from dog to bitch, fresh, and then go for a natural mating.

>Speaking as one who has lived in N.America, doing an A1 was done a lot, but mainly to hopefully reduce the risk of infection IF the Stud Dog was popular. 

The situations I'm describing (based on accounts on forums) are where natural matings have been attempted and failed.  So it's not about infection, or they wouldn't have even attempted a natural mating.  Both dogs in these cases are clear of brucellosis anyway, because part of 'good' dog breeding in the US is to regularly test all breeding stock for brucellosis - so it's not because of infection.... (The breeders I'm talking about here are not back-yard breeders, but the "doing everything right" breeders in the US.)

>Is this lack of libido inherited, or acquired?  

Like Brainless, I think it is inherited.  It's worth also (maybe vaguely hypothesising here) that too MUCH libido is a total pain in the ass for anyone wanting to compete with their dog, or train their dog seriously - resulting in excess marking, interest in females, sniffing etc etc etc.  I do see more and more that dogs with these 'annoying' issues get neutered because their owners hate these traits.  And then are not available to pass on this high libido to others.  Meanwhile, the dogs which get left intact are the ones with crap libido that can't mate.... often/reliably. 

>Used to be that the KC wouldn't accept anything other than from a natural mating - but how would they KNOW as registrations are taken on trust!!

Yes, it's true that AIs are probably used more than they are reported to the KC but there's nothing much to be done about that.  The KC could have upheld their previous position though, which at least sends the right message to breeders.

>Not with fresh or chilled semen, results almost as good as natural mating. Materials used have to be chosen wiyj care as some plastics etc kill sperm.

Oh, maybe it's due to user-error then... but I know that the results are less good.  Fewer puppies, or none at all... maybe for that reason though.

>Maybe its down to logistics, easy to forget just how big America is

Nope, not talking about distance.  I'm talking about situations where both dogs are present and people freak out when they can't get a natural mating when they think they should get one and leap to the AI kit... That's the situation I see happening over again on US forums/boards/groups.

In my breed, the stud dog owner whose stud we last used, told me about a dog which came to her stud the previous month.  He failed to mate her (she kept telling him off), they tried a different stud of hers - same thing.  Next season, she went to another stud - again, same thing happened.  She was progesterone testing and going when the tests said to go.... Third season, she gave up on progesterone testing because clearly it wasn't helping and decided just to go to the stud and find one who would allow her to visit daily until things worked.  They did that and kept going back and I think it was Day 20 that she accepted and there was a litter of 8 pups...

Point is:  At no time in any of that, was an AI even thought about by any party.  The stud owner wouldn't know what to do, and wouldn't have had a kit, and it just wasn't even on anyone's radar as an option.  Skip to 2 dogs of the same breed recently trying to mate in the US (both first timers) and the advice given BEFORE THE DOGS HAVE EVEN MET to the bitch owner was "be ready to do an AI" - before they've even met!! 

Ethically, I think it is complicated too - we are all agreed that to force a bitch to be mated when she doesn't want to be, is rape and is abusive and shouldn't be done.  (Not talking minimally holding her - properly forcing her.)  Yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable when confronted by a reluctant bitch to stick an AI tube up her.....!?!?!?  Surely the act and the result is the same?!?! 

I don't get it...

To be honest it's been done for awhile here but was just kept quiet in if the stud was here so litters could be registered. Now there is no need for the secrecy so it seems new AI clinics are opening by certain breeders. Even surgical AI which the KC and RCVS advise should be done only for exceptional reasons is done. I was told of two bitches having it done in the same week, were they both exceptional reasons I don't know but 2 in the same would suggest it's not as rare as one would think.

"The situations I'm describing (based on accounts on forums) are where natural matings have been attempted and failed.  So it's not about infection, or they wouldn't have even attempted a natural mating.  Both dogs in these cases are clear of brucellosis anyway, because part of 'good' dog breeding in the US is to regularly test all breeding stock for brucellosis - so it's not because of infection.... (The breeders I'm talking about here are not back-yard breeders, but the "doing everything right" breeders in the US.)"

Being from the US and recently going through breeding a maiden bitch and inexperienced stud dog I can attest to the fact that if a natural breeding is not obtained immediately the advice I was given was to go straight to an AI.
If it was not for the fact that a experienced breeder that I was friends with wanted to breed her maiden bitch to the same stud dog as I was breeding my bitch to at the exact same time and was willing to drive 20 hours and walk me and the stud dog owner (also inexperienced) through the breedings I probably would have gone with an AI as I had no idea of the importance of a natural breeding.  The breeder that ended up mentoring me and the stud dog owner was aware of the importance of a natural breeding and passed that information on to me but in general it is not given a high priority to many breeders here it seems to me.

Yes Jackie, I have lots of breeder-friends in the US and it's one thing that makes me very sad :(