She has eaten a bowl of chicken, she's drank a bowl of puppy milk and bowl of water already today. She's been out for a wee and allowed me to change the bedding in the box. She ate all the after births then was sick but by the time.i tried to clean it she had eaten that as well.

> I haven't weighed them as the vet is wanting to see her at 4pm to be sure all is ok and they said they will check weights and such

Important to weigh every day for first week.  They may loose a little weight by tomorrow but should regain the next day and start going up after that.  A digital kitchen scale will be best, best to weigh in grammes for such tinies..

The afterbirth provide nourishment but also hormones involved with getting the milk supply in.

I have digital kitchen scales so that's good to know. I'll take a note of the time the vets checks and then do it at the same time each day.

I think you've done great and I'm so pleased it has all gone easily for you, as not an easy breed to whelp.

I feel like I keep saying the same thing(!) but as everything seems to be going fine, I wouldn't really have the vet come and check... and definitely wouldn't be taking exhausted mum and newborn pups to a vet practice either. 

Due to the interventionists that vets are, they may well give her a shot of oxytocin and that will just get her all upset again and digging about, having finally got settled down and getting some rest.  Save the vet for when you really need them and there are problems...

Definitely weigh all the pups at least once a day, I prefer twice a day for the first week.

> Now your work starts lol

No.   Now HER work .... continues.   If you are lucky, once you have the actual whelping mess cleaned up, mum should be doing all the work until you have to step in and start weaning.  THAT'S when the work really starts.

If you are a novice, please take mum and her puppies to your vet, or have him call out, to make sure she is empty and to give her a shot to clear out any retained birthing material, or even a puppy who wasn't able to be born.    And he needs to check the puppies for abnormalities you might have missed.   Once that's done, you should be good to go.    Retained birthing material could make her very ill.   Let the puppies have a good feed before going to the vet, and have them on a warm pad in a box, next to mum so you don't distress her.   And have somebody either drive you, or go with you to watch mum in case she delivers another puppy!!

By the way, as the placenta is very rich, I'd keep how many she has to a minimum.    Wild dogs need this as they can't go off hunting for a while - our domestic dogs don't.   The act of suckling stimulates the milk to come down.    Also I'd not give her puppy milk - water and food but not that.

"..... the vet is wanting to see her at 4pm to be sure all is ok "     Just picked up on this add-on.   Good.  So you can avoid stressing her at this time.   She's now needing rest and quiet, with you keeping an eye on things.   Well done.   And nice gender split.... most people/breeders want bitches!   And get MALES!!!

Wow well done you, and her of course, you've both done a brilliant job. Hope it all continues smoothly. x

Some useful advice here: https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/breeding-for-dog-owners-caring-for-newborn-puppies

^     I wish I'd had access to that article before my first litter all those years ago.   It would have helped no end.   I would just say that if there's a small puppy, avoid the big back teats which may have the most milk, but which a tiny puppy may not be able to manage.   I used to put any smaller ones on one of the middle teats and first, before the big bruisers piled in and pushed smaller ones aside    Thankfully I tended to have even sized litters, all around 18 oz birth weight.   Those via C.Section tended to stop an ounce or two during the first 24 hours or so however.

Well that's us just home from the vets, they scanned her and palpated her stomach and she's completely empty, they gave her a calcium injection because her litter was so big and I already have the calcium tablet that my husband got earlier for her and she's to have 2 tablets every day.
All puppys are healthy and no problems with any of them, all have a great suckle also. So here are the weights
Girl 1 is 3oz
Girl 2 is 3.4 oz
Boy is 4 oz
Girl 3 is 4.5 oz
And last born is a tiny 2.7 oz.

Puppys have been so quiet since they got right onto mum's nipples and 2 are sound asleep while on the nipple.
Vets have booked us back in for 15th July to have them wormed and another little check.
I'm so tired and struggling to keep my eyes open, haven't ate yet either so I'm going to have a shower and something to eat then once my kids are in bed my husband will take over so i can try and get a few hours.
Hats off to all the breeders, I seriously could not do this again. It has been emotional and stressful, but now amazing that they are all here safe and well.

Given this was not planned in any  way I think u have done incredibly well by her as well as the excellent advise from some of our experienced breeders. Hope all continues well

Totally agree. This is definitely what this site does best...helping people.

Yes you have done so well. It's a surprisingly large litter but at least they are not going to turn into very large pups and that does make it easier, believe me.

I was totally clueless about dog pregnancy and whelping until I came across this website and posted myself then looked through all the other threads. I don't think I would have been any use to her or the pups if I hadn't found this website.
It's thanks to all the amazing people on here with their advice, guidance and experience.

I was wondering though, how long do they stay with mum? I was speaking to a westie breeder on Facebook and they've said they keep them till between 10 and 12 weeks but the vet said today that it would be around 8 weeks or just after that.

Is there a way to upload pictures on this thread? I feel like you have all been such a big part of this quick journey and would love to show you all the babies

Sadly no I am sure we would love to see pics. As for when they homed 8 is the earliest but I think small  breeds its often  around 12. Jeansw and goldmali are probably best to advise though

> I was speaking to a westie breeder on Facebook and they've said they keep them till between 10 and 12 weeks but the vet said today that it would be around 8 weeks or just after that.

8 weeks would be the norm for larger breeds of and fast growing pups, especially primitive tough breeds like mine.

With yours Definitely 10 - 12 weeks (with your size litter pups will be smaller so more like 12)

With small toy breeds who develop more slowly and are much more delicate as pups, they can easily have low blood sugar, if they don't eat regularly, and of course changing homes often means pups go off feed for a day or two, not good for very young toy pups. Also such tiny breeds can overheat, or the reverse more quickly than larger breeds.

Totally agree with Brainless. I have one large breed and one toybreed and they are very different in how they develop, the toys are not ready to go at 8 weeks.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, a while away from that anyway but just wanted to know as my friends mum who is a breeder said she can help with vetting and finding forever homes and alsp mentioned something about a type of contract for new owners. She said she would talk more about it in a week or 2 once puppys were properly settled and we had got over the shock of it all as it's been a whirlwind 3 weeks for us here. I Just want to make sure I'm doing what's right for them all including mum as I feel I let her down by not being there not stop this happening in the first place. Thanks again everyone.

Do a search for puppy contract here and a thread with ideas will come up.

> how long do they stay with mum? I was speaking to a westie breeder on Facebook and they've said they keep them till between 10 and 12 weeks but the vet said today that it would be around 8 weeks or just after that.

Stay with mum or stay with you, the breeder?    Some mums won't want to be WITH their puppies from a very early age, just going into feed (roughly every 2 hours) and helping the pups eliminate.   We did have our girls mainly in with them at night however.   We had one, the one who'd have nothing to do with pooh, who would want out, after a feed when they were all settled, and once out would stand by the box and whine - upsetting them all again.... she only had the one (good) litter!   Once the pups were starting to be weaned, by the end of week 3 going into week 4, and the teeth were coming through, even if most of their nourishment was still coming from mum initially, I'd have her out of the box while feeding the puppies and only letting her back in to clean up and allow comfort nursing, standing up.   At this stage mum would want out once she started feeling their ouch teeth!   By the time they were fully weaned onto solids, at around 6 weeks, our mums were off their litters pretty much completely even if we didn't let them go to their new homes until 10 weeks, other than to those who we knew and were experienced (and with a big litter), when some might go home at 8 weeks.  Not before.   Some will let their puppies go home earlier than we did, but Bassets are sensitive beings, and I preferred to have them with me to 10 weeks usually ... to make sure they were ready for the outside world!  Part of 'weaning'.

Oh and if your pups have needle sharp nails, it won't hurt to nip the pointy ends, to protect mum's 'milk bar'.!

ps  ..... and people wonder why we ask so much for our puppies..... doing a litter is a ton of work, emotionally and physically.  And the cost of a puppy really doesn't get anywhere near compensating for that, much as we only bred for our next generation and getting one or two really good puppies to go forward with, was reward enough really.

Just to add, if you keep pups beyond 8wks, you will need to socialise them individually off your property and ensure they are exposed to traffic, people, other dogs (watching them), livestock and so on.

Google "socialisation period" for more information on why this is so essential.  This is a lot of work(!) for a breeder with multiple pups.  Obviously it is easier in their new home for the new owner to give 1-2-1 attention and socialisation daily in this way.

Personally, I feel that if a puppy is going to a relatively dog-experienced home, preferably with a well-socialised older dog there, then younger is fine.  If it's a first-time home and owner, with no older dog in it, then I'd want to keep a bit longer and do that socialisation myself.  Hopefully that's not the whole litter, though...

Whilst toy puppies are physically smaller and LOOK more immature than other breeds (they have been bred to look that way, as part of their appeal to humans - to look babylike, with big eyes etc), psychologically there is no evidence that they mature at a different rate or that their socialisation window is any different to any other breed.  I wouldn't want to make decisions about how long to keep them based on what they look like - but more on their physical and psychological health and what's best for that.

If you keep them beyond 8wks, you will also need to take them all for their 1st round of jabs.....

It's all just very confusing and lots of websites contradict each other so hard to tell what is actually the best course to go down. I hadn't even thought of asking for money for the pups either if I'm totally honest, obviously it's cost me a lot so far and I'm prepared for how much I'll be spending for everything for mum and pups for the next 2 or so months but I think I'm still in awe of it all and still coming to grips with the fact my girl was pregnant and now has 5 puppies. Looks like I've still got so much more reading up on it all and making sure I make the best decision possible for these little baby's.

They are all doing so well, didn't hear a noise at all from them last night, I bed a bed on the floor next to the box and fell asleep about 3am and woke at 6am and they were all still settled next to pup. We're having to carry her out to pee as she refuses to come out the box other wise. She's eating and drinking lots which is great. I just can't stop looking at mum with them all, I'm so proud of her coping so well.

It's incorrect that toy puppies mature at the same rate as larger ones, and that comes from plenty of personal experience. Toy pups often start on solids later, suckle for longer, the mother treats them differently. I have twice had toy pups move to me at a too young age -once at 7 weeks, once at 8. They were nowhere near ready to be away from their mothers and they are the only two I have ever had to grow up to be fearful. An 8 week old small toypup is more like a 4-5 week old larger breed. It actually has nothing to do with socialisation. I've had a 14 week old toy pup come to live with me with no prior socialisation. She grew up to be one of the most confident dogs I have ever had. Had she been of a larger breed, chances are the opposite would have been true.

But there's no research, Goldmali, to support the things you are saying....

Never had a toy breed but my collies have always been totally independent by 6 weeks or so & I've collected a few at that age, must add to join my existing dogs, wouldn't want a six week old as a sole dog. I have also had pups at a much later age & had a few problems nothing serious, seemed to take them longer to tune into me, if that makes sense.

This toy breed(mother)I believe has a soft spot in skull called a molera, which closes between 4 & 16 weeks so another reason to keep them longer than a bigger breed.

No research to support.....

No just years and years of personal experience. It's not all about books and internet research is it surely? How else did we manage thus far?

you must charge for them- & not too cheap or they will attract the wrong sort of puppy seeker.- if  you feel bad taking much  you could always prepay  their future neutering at a vet  chain out of price so owners have less tó pay later.
alternately I would wonder if this cross might suit 'hearing dogs for the deaf'?  potential there maybe to donate a pup or 2 & at least  you would know they would be v well cared for. might be worth asking them...

...just years and years of personal experience..

Well said Rozzie  Retriever!
This is the whole point of the Champdogs forum in a nutshell.
Not everything can be backed up with research and I for one would certainly rate years and years of experience on a par with most of the available  research regarding the breeding and rearing of dogs.

After having a discussion with my husband and our vet, I've decided to keep them with us until 10-12 weeks, just to try and give them the best start in life as possible. The vet will also be doing their first vaccine while they're still with us so that's taken care off.
This has alsp opened my eyes and made me realise that my girls 'breeder' was not a proper breeder so to speak. I got my girl at 7 weeks, she had no microchip, no kc papers, no vaccine and was the 2nd litter between the breeders 2 Chihuahuas which she never keeps separated, she's now had 4 litters in just under 2 years, there was never any contracts, asking questions about me or my home or giving me any info on the vet check and I paid £650 for her. But I never thought any different as I didn't know how things were done. But after being on here and getting all your experiences and speaking with the vet for things that need done from now until they're rehomed and from.what ice read from other sites I now know that things didn't add up with my girl.
That doesn't matter now though, she's with me and I'll make sure I can do whatever possible to give her babies the best and get them the best forever homes I can and also make sure she knows how much she's still loved even after the pups are gone. She'll never have to go through this again I'll make sure of it by getting her spayed as soon as the vet allows it to be done.

Just fyi with regard to your girls breeder although most of those things don't sound good with regard to vaccination all my pups have come to me without vaccines. It's by agreement  as I prefer to have these done by my vet as it is often considered better that the same vaccines are used . Not always possible if vets use different ones and u cannot go back to the original vet due to distance .my pups have all  been around 12 weeks when I've taken them home including my pom x chi . I am not alone with this stance on vaccines so if it's mentioned by any prospective  puppy owners u won't be surprised

Did your vet discuss the maternal immunity your puppies will get from their mother's milk & the effect that it could have on any vaccines given before it wanes ? Vaccinating very young puppies during the period covered by maternal immunity is TBH a waste of money & will challenge the puppies' immature immune system.

I have never vaccinated a puppy under 12 weeks of age & for over 30 years done a titre test before vaccinating any dog. I understand from veterinary friends in the Netherlands that it is standard procedure there & they have a much lower percentage of reactions to vaccines that we have here in the UK. Also dogs over 10 weeks of age only need 1 vaccine Dose (as per manufacturers)

Re vaccinating before they go home - we had all our puppies given their first set at 10 weeks (and a second set 2 weeks later)*  and most went to their new homes without being vaccinated BECAUSE all too often new vets want to 'start again'!!  Those who hadn't gone to their new homes by 10 weeks, we had vaccinated with those we were keeping however.

Re charging- YESSS,  even it's a minimal charge (in line with what a Shelter might charge?).   If people have to pay for something, it makes them think twice before buying.   All puppies had some value, however small, or big.  And what you do charge will help go towards getting her spayed!

Don't be so sure you'll be keeping them to 12 weeks - you may find that in fact they do better having a one to one relationship with their new owners than the time you are able to spend with each.    Yes re 'socialising' although mine were never individually socialised, they did live with others of our hounds.   But the need for this tends to apply differently - mine was a breed where it perhaps wasn't so 'vital'.    Of course those we kept, once the others had gone to their new homes and once vaccinated, were taken to the kerb to see people and traffic early on.  But I didn't find my Bassets lacked for socialising the way I brought them up!

Don't forget to worm the puppies at 2 weeks, and then every 2 weeks to the time they go to their new homes - the owners should be given a full worming history, when given and with what, for their vet to note - and told to reworm by around 3 months.   Mum will need to be wormed when the puppies are first wormed.

*  If titres are done, then it may well be that only one set is needed.  Most people don't titre each puppy in their litters because of cost however, so (UK), two sets are given, to be sure the puppy is fully protected.   The second may not be necessary but it's belt and braces routine, just in case for some reason, the first set didn't take.

These are a toy breed so tend to gain from staying with mum longer than bigger breeds as others have said .I wouldn't be in a rush to home them early .
're spaying mum. before u do this have read around pros and cons of spaying. There is loads of research now to show early spaying can  be detrimental. With a small breed if i were to spay I would wait until around 18 months at least. Sorry can't remember her age now so this may not be relevamt .dogs need their hormones for all.sorts of development e.g. joints and tendons,  tempermemt as well .early spay  ( before full maturity)has been proven more and more to be detrimental. As a responsible owner who could  not of foreseen what happened   I am sure it wouldn't happen again while u are deciding the best for her

> I hadn't even thought of asking for money for the pups either if I'm totally hones

People who are deliberately breeding crossbred toy pups are asking from £800 upward for the puppies.

Now that is as much as I charge for my breed with full expensive health testing of both parents, champions etc, but it seems anything small costs lots.

You need to avoid the potential for selling them cheaply only for unscrupulous people to buy them to resell at a profit.

So even thought I would consider around £300 reasonable for a puppy from an accidental  crossbred litter, to cover costs, especial care needs to be taken (this obviously won't apply if pups go to family or reliable friends as lifetime companions).

> I'll make sure of it by getting her spayed as soon as the vet allows it to be done.

I spay my girls at 11 - 12 weeks after the pups are born assuming that they have stopped suckling by 8 weeks.

I would strongly recommend against getting her spayed at just after a year old.  I understand you've had a traumatic experience with an unwanted pregnancy and that you don't want to see this happen again, but the reality is that it is very unusual.  None of my bitches are spayed before the age of 8 years old.  I have had zero unwanted pregnancies.

Just some reading to start with, many, many more studies:

Long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs:  http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Early spay-neuter considerations for the canine athlete:  http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
Health Implications in Early Spay and Neuter in Dogs:  http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/health-implications-in-early.html
Health Risks and Benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs:  http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/spay_neuter_risks_benefits.aspx
Making an informed decision:  http://www.wolftucker.co.uk/blog/neutering-your-dog-making-an-informed-decision/
Speaking for Spot: New Research That Raises Questions About Current Neutering Recommendations:  http://speakingforspot.com/blog/2014/01/26/new-research-that-raises-questions-about-current-neutering-recommendations/
Spaying and Neutering: New Warnings about Health Problems:  http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2015/02/03/spaying-and-neutering-new-warnings-about-health-problems/

Mine were all spayed when retired, so must would have been done at over 6 years.   However, when I bought our Whippet, with an elderly and unwell entire male Basset in residence at the time, I took her to my vet to be spayed when she was around 6 months.   Even separated, he'd still have known about her condition which none of us wanted/needed.   My vet at the time didn't want to spay her until she'd had one season so I made arrangements with a local kennel who agreed to have her , crated with them when she came into season.  

As it happened come 11 months and still no sign of a season (and I asked her breeder about her mother and siblings and was told they were all well over 12 months before a first season), I took her back to then vet who agreed to spay.   He had cited bone development issues and the potential for spay incontinence but much as she might be a bit taller than the norm (which she might have been with or without being spayed), she's now coming up to 10 (where do the years go) and fine.

Thread continued HERE