WIth the new laws on dog breeding coming into force in october 2018  what are your views on this?
are they especially going to change the license conditions regarding premises? some of us breed from home and do not have so called commercial premises?
i breed 2 litters per year .

Its anyones guess because nothing has been passed. Its general requirements for dogs and pups as i see most people would do.
It says whether those that breed the occasional litter will need a licence will remain to be seen. The main points are 3 or more litters a year a licence is needed. If you sell pups for profit, whether you actually make a profit is neither here nor there.
No bitches to be mater before 1 year and no bitch to have more than 1 litter in a 12 month period. Lots is about animal welfare and record keeping.

Seems to me if you’re an Assured Breeder you’d follow this criteria any way to be accepted.
Besides if you breed ethically you have nothing to fear, the only thing you’d have to do is get a license if you breed 3 or more litters a year - a lot of councils already require this anyway.

If you only breed 2 litters a year the change won't affect you.

It will Jan because at the moment any one making a profit, so basically you sell a puppy whether you actually make any money or not a licence will be needed.
It was something i was discussing last night with someone who mot only breeds but helps breed resxue and has spoken to defra, kc and our local council too.
Its being finalised now in parliament for particulars. It would be nice that 2 or less litters a year wont need a licence but as it stands if you sell your pups you need a licence regardless as to how many litters you have.

well thats an end to it then.the end of home breeding for everyone.

> It will Jan because at the moment any one making a profit, so basically you sell a puppy whether you actually make any money or not

Selling the puppy and making a profit are two very different things, hence the above doesn't sound correct.

But - nothing of course prevents the law from saying that anyone who breeds puppies and sells them requires a licence, whether such person makes a profit or not. The question is whether this is what the new law is going to say?

> Selling the puppy and making a profit are two very different things

Ain't that the truth!   Through our breeding years, which we only did for the next generation (and only once did we have 2 litters, from litter-sisters, in one year), we counted ourselves lucky if we broke even with one, or perhaps two, nice puppies to take forward.

> The question is whether this is what the new law is going to say?

Indeed.  Not that it matters to me now as we are no longer breeding.   I'd hate to think this means more money for the Government (Licence fee) and more paperwork!   I think there will be 'ways' around having to apply for a Licence (what restrictions would the Council impose on the occasional/hobby breeder I wonder).  'Sell them?'  Nah, they were given away as a gift

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Annaliese Britton says:  Question is do they really think this is going to stop puppy farmers who seem to be above the law, or does it mean they will just illegally import more dogs on pet passports instead which is currently a huge problem?

Does anyone know what aquiring a licence will entail, or will this vary by council?

It should be the same across the board but it seems to be a case of contacting your local council to see what is what.

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Jean Williams Says: Why give more paper work to those who are giving the safe delivery of sound health y dogs xxxj

Miriam Fraser says:  I have to have a vet inspection and environmental health dept inspection and pay for a license and insurances and comply with pages and pages of animal welfare legislation in order to home board a dog for even one night so of course all breeders should also go through same / similar procedures.. only fair and gives client's / purchasers added confidence. Why should a breeder fly under the radar when others providing a more simple service don't.. ? Answer that please...

In a nutshell, today with all the 'evidence' that cruel puppy farms are already in operation ('Licenced Puppy Farms') SOME MPs ? (hopefully not though) may now be deciding to target the Ethical/Hobby breeders, the very ones who already breed less (Hobby breeders who breed from their home as a 'Hobby' because they genuinely love their breed).

If we start seeing less & less hobby breeders in the future, then that will open the flood gates for more & more puppy farms, hopefully MPs etc will realise how much our breeds need/rely on Hobby Breeders who genuinely love our/their breed and do all the Health Testing with a passion to breed for better Temperament/Health & overall quality.

pets for home site have issued even one litter you need a license if in the business of selling dogs.
if you are in the bussiness of selling dogs you are classed as commercial.
how can you get a license for breeding one litter from home....?
you need the following:
bussiness insurance for your vehicles if you have to take dogs to vet private insurance will not cover you in course of business if you have an accident.
commercial waste disposal as you are not allowed to put commercial dog waste in residential bins.
change of use and or planning permission.
health and safety.
first aid.
fire escapes etc.
business rates to be paid
register with hmrc.
permission from mortgage lender or landlord

the list is endless.

FIRE ESCAPE on a private residential home where the breeder, like we were, ONLY breeds the occasional litter for the next generation ..... has the world gone completely mad?

> pets for home site have issued even one litter you need a license if in the business of selling dogs.

Could you post a link to what Pets 4 have to say.   I can't find it.   Tks.

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-advice/animal-welfare-act-2018-what-licensed-dog-breeders-must-do-to-legally-advertise-their-litters.html

"Whether the licensing regulations will apply in practice to one-off breeders or people who breed one occasional litter only remains to be seen – but current information indicates that if you intend to sell pups for profit (whether or not you actually make a profit) you may need a license."

From a further link on Pets 4 - "What Breeders need to do to be licensed under the upcoming changes ........ "

Thanks for the link.   UNBELIEVEABLE.   And far too complex - for the occasional hobby breeder.   And there are points raised in this further article that I'd strongly disagree with.   Such as bitches must not be removed from their puppies (or vice versa) before 8 weeks.   Yes re sale, but my bitches were off their litters, so not to be 'dragged down' (milk bar) by the time the puppies were fully weaned onto solids - around 5 weeks.  And that helps with the settling into their new homes - they only miss their surroundings and litter mates.

Also I'd not breed again from a bitch who had ONE C-Section.   Definitely not two.

And so on.

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Jane Cox says:  most breeders may want to be licensed but cant get licenses. you cant be in the business of breeding dogs and live in a residential property.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2018/9780111165485 is this of any help ? It's rather long but if u scroll down  breed is described in a couple of places. .  HMRC  will have  a view in what do sotutrs breed I g for profit and what can be offset which may  a difference for hobby breeders  . The pets 4 homes is their interpretation  as far as i can see and may not be accurate

it isnt accurate.its a farce and scaremongering small breeders.the rspca had input into it so that says alot.
so a person who wants to breed from   their pet dog to get a puppy or a a puppy for showing needs a license.
never heard such poppycock in all my life.

"Whether the licensing regulations will apply in practice to one-off breeders or people who breed one occasional litter only remains to be seen – but current information indicates that if you intend to sell pups for profit (whether or not you actually make a profit) you may need a license."

From a further link on Pets 4 - "What Breeders need to do to be licensed under the upcoming changes ........ "

  ^     As already posted!!

pets for homes have updated this article the one litter has gone.
*** Update*** We have updated this article on 21st June, to say that you will only need a license if you breed 3 or more litters per year, or  are breeding and selling for commercial gain.  Your local council will be able to determine if you are breeding and selling for commercial gain or not, and if you are unsure whether you will need a license from 1st October 2018, we would advise that you contact your local council licensing department to discuss.

I have found this in a government document (the link is below but I though I would pull out the important bit to ease reading!)

7.11 The instrument will include new provisions, such as the prohibition on the sale of puppies below the age of 8 weeks and a requirement for a puppy to be shown with its mother by breeders prior to sale. There will be a requirement for pet sellers to provide animal care information to new owners with every animal sold. Any purchase of a dog must now be completed in the presence of the purchaser at the premises where the dog has been kept for sale by the licence holder. The licensing threshold for dog breeders will be reduced to three or more litters per year to ensure that anyone breeding dogs commercially, including backyard breeders, requires a licence. This instrument will also explicitly highlight the need for online businesses to be licensed, removing the ambiguity in legislation to date.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2018/9780111165485/pdfs/ukdsiem_9780111165485_en.pdf

I don't know if I am right or not but this seems slightly different to the pets4homes interpretation. that seemed to imply that anyone who bred would be classed as breeding commercially whereas I think this seems to mention 3 or more litters and online businesses which I am not sure are the same thing as just anyone - or am I getting my wires crossed

> you need the following: <br />bussiness insurance for your vehicles if you have to take dogs to vet private insurance will not cover you in course of business if you have an accident.<br />commercial waste disposal as you are not allowed to put commercial dog waste in residential bins.<br />change of use and or planning permission.<br />health and safety.<br />first aid.<br />fire escapes etc.<br />business rates to be paid<br />register with hmrc.<br />permission from mortgage lender or landlord<br /><br />the list is endless.

and that is why us hobby breeders do not want to need a license, not that we have anything to hide but caring for your household companions, breeding a litter in your home in the hope of producing typical pups as a custodian of the breed to enjoy yourself and for others.

Sometimes I wish that bitches only had the one pup, the perfect next step from Mum, with the desired qualities in spades, and the right sex of course.

> Sometimes I wish that bitches only had the one pup,

Well you know how to achieve that!!!   Not.   As for getting the 'right sex' - if only!    As I thought when I managed to have 6 puppies - ALL MALE which was the last thing I really needed at the time.

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Sharon Martin says:  As AB's also have to be licensed I can see them leaving their KC scheme too

Assured breeders will only need a licence if the law requires them to in terms of litters bred and what the local council requires. Being an ABS doesnt automatically mean you need a licence its still down to local councils and what they have set as needing a licence. Thats from a phone call i had with the KC just today.

Aren’t the KC having discussions with Defra regarding the need for a license for Assured breeders?

As I understand it they’re saying if you’ve had a KC inspection the council should accept that the premises are acceptable and all other requirements are in place and up to the required standard therefore the license or the inspection by the council shouldn’t be required.

That would safeguard Assured breeders and still allow the KC to charge for membership.

That would safeguard Assured breeders and still allow the KC to charge for membership

Bravo KC, always on the ball when it comes to making a few quid out of pet dog owners to put to higher salerie's for KC admin heirarchy decision makers. Not so bravo is the fact unlike mainland European breed registration clubs, there is no mandatory fit for breeding test to get a fit for breeding licence from them!
.
The penalty by Euro clubs for breeding without passing that test is that their offspring cannot be registered by the relevant breed registration club. Oh Ohhhh, that means less income for breed registration club.........

UK KC Dogs Result.....
https://bit.ly/20aJzNy
.

They said its not been granted at this stage. You will still need a licence though as it stands if you meet the criteria your council set in place

kc assured breeders or the local crossbreeder of so called designer dogs it doesnt matter in the slightest  its all down to your council.
kc has nothing what so ever to grant you a dog breeding license.
your premises and record keeping are priorities.

Sherriesmum
The KC were in discussions to decide that if you were an Assured Breeder you would be exempt from a council license......that means.... if it was agreed .....that an Assured Breeder doesn’t need to be accountable to the council only to the KC.

At this time its not been agreed. Everyone has to abide by their iwn councils decision on how the law will be implemented. My understanding was that all councils should be doing the same thing but i have been told that its down to each council to decide on what they will do. Some may just keep it at 3 litters in a rolling 12 months. Others may go less.
The part about breeding for profit and advertising is the same as it currently is so that part of the law hasnt changed as thats been in effect for a number of years however any council could look at that and make their own different decision on that too.
Defras guidelines state about determining a commerical trading is how often people are breeding and how often they are advertising. So im guessing that if a breeder decides to remain under the litters threshold but have 2 litters every 12 rolling months and advertise each and every litter they could look at that and make their own decisions as to whether that is breeding for profit.

> The KC were in discussions to decide that if you were an Assured Breeder you would be exempt from a council license......that means.... if it was agreed .....that an Assured Breeder doesn’t need to be accountable to the council only to the KC.

No this was only to do with Inspections.

The KC were in discussions to decide that if you were an Assured Breeder

Sorry but I cannot translate that, who were they in discussions with? the great God poobag perhaps!??
.

Ed Hayes at the KC had this to say about AB's and licenses:

Assured Breeders will also require a licence, though we are expecting that the new licensing model will recognise the Assured Breeder Scheme with regards to inspection frequency and cost of the licence, though as before we’re still awaiting the details from the Government.

Best wishes
Ed

Yes AB's will only if they fall into the category for needing one by their council. So its not anyone who is an AB will need a licence.

Thank you all for explaining it more clearly......obviously the assessor who told me about it earlier this year got mixed up, or I misinterpreted what was meant

Charlie Brown
As I understand it they’re saying if you’ve had a KC inspection the council should accept that the premises are acceptable and all other requirements are in place and up to the required standard therefore the license or the inspection by the council shouldn’t be required.

Euro,
Oh that understanding is 'probably' what you/people are supposed to understand if KC originated your understanding. >>Its just KC sales talk<< intended to generate more sales of their AB scheme by heightening its status by >implying< it's a government sanctioned bee's knee's standard of breeding thereby improving sales ease, status & profitability to individuals who >buy into< KC AB & >implying AB dogs were healthier than non AB dogs.
.
I remember (not long ago) when KC brought AB in there were quite a number of UK breeders very disgruntled about it because their existing breeding standards (before AB scheme) were of a higher standard than what KC were supposed to apply.........bear those elements in mind Charlie when you hear KC >originated< stuff, it's just 'sales talk', composed by KC, choreographed by KC and danced 'The Few'.

For the record, I do not breed dogs & never have, so no conflict of interests.
.

> << intended to generate more sales of their AB scheme by heightening its status by >implying< it's a government sanctioned bee's knee's standard of breeding thereby improving sales ease,

The Kennel Club got their scheme passed by UKAS, which is a standards agency.

It was at this point that many of us Hobby breeders whose goals are breed improvement left the scheme as UKAS seem to be all about paperwork and one size fits all stuff that really does not sit well with dogs lovingly reared in a home environment, but would suit the commercial element.

Thanks Barbara.

according to the itv news last night all breeders to be licensed.tbf i dont think anyone will know till the legistation comes out.

according to the itv news last night all breeders to be licensed.

I've looked on ITV site from what I understand of what ITV says individuals who might someday wish to breed from their dog & maybe sell the pups to the costs of food, bedding and 'human care' of a litter will not be affected.

That said, there is to be a consultation & if I were planning on a one off type litter (maybe to line breed) I would apply for a place on the consultation to put forward a proposal that there is an exclusion for hobby type, ie, a litter occasionally, individual owner, people who might breed their dog, I ave never bred a litter from my dogs but I would not want to be excluded in law from doing so if I wanted to.

ITVs story
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-06-29/puppy-power-leads-to-lucys-law-uk/
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well at end of the day whatever happens its entirely up to your local council to how many litters you can breed with guidance from the uk  gov site.at moment its set at 5 plus you need a license.the drafts on animal welfare act state 3 litters or more you will need a license.plus hmrc will decide if you are a business or hobby seller.as yet nothing is set in stone and the internet is full of chinese whispers about whats what.
my council have emailed me and have told me i will be within the law when it comes out with their guidance.
let us also remember that this law also applies to all pets been sold .any hobby seller will be means tested to established business or hobby seller as pet vending is also under this new law.
tens of thousands of people will have to come under the radar to be legal.whether you sell stick insects to bengal cats nobody is exempt.its your duty to determine whether you are hobby or business.u fortunetly most may be business but wont get license for either pets or dog breeding.we can therfore expect animals been dumped,rehomed and pts as a result and rescue centres at breaking point for potential failed license applications.
this law is so badly thought through and rushed.
on the dog breeding side if you are a good breeder but cant get license you are puppy farmer and people shouldnt go to you.
it would make sense to give those who cannot get licenses a registration number or a star rating system for everybody.
longer licenses aswell are no good either.inspections and renewals should be yearly.

the internet is full of chinese whispers about whats what.

....along with a large dash of BS

The new legislation has already been published, but it's rather ambiguously worded

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/486/contents/made

The relevant part says

PART 1
Business test
1.  The circumstances which a local authority must take into account in determining whether an activity is being carried on in the course of a business for the purposes of this Schedule include, for example, whether the operator—
(a)
makes any sale by, or otherwise carries on, the activity with a view to making a profit, or
(b)
earns any commission or fee from the activity.

We all occasionally sell 2nd hand items in newspaper ads or online ads, but that doesn't mean we are all operating a 2nd hand reselling 'business'.  Otherwise the whole world would be....

Which is why the definition of business is going to involve doing something with some frequency or quantity, or to a degree that it brings in a substantial amount of income - without which you would struggle financially.

I'm pretty sure that isn't going to apply to the majority of breeders on CDs.

Agree that's the case under normal circumstances, but this is with specific reference to animal activities which they're coming down on like a ton of bricks. This is the  wording that councils must use to decide whether someone is breeding, or carrying out other animal related practices, as a business. It's apparent that different councils will interpret the wording differently so it may certainly impact breeders who breed very infrequently in some council areas but not others. The whole thing is set to become a postcode lottery

> The whole thing is set to become a postcode lottery

The current regulations are exactly the same re this ambiguity of councils determining what they consider commercial activity.