Should I accept a puppy from a breeder that the hip score of the Dam is scored at 16 and the sire 11? The average score is 11 and it’s recommended that breeders don’t breed above this.

They have been clear for all other tests. It’s just the hip score that’s worrying me

It would me too especially in a numerically high breed. If a rare breed then I would consider it

Depends on the breed and what the parents scores were and if any siblings have been tested too. Also if the parents have offspring by them and if they've been scored also. You can look all this up on mykc.

Rare breed - Toller

Parents, grandparents, siblings etc all seem ok. All under the average score. The dam has had 2 previous litters and out of the pups that have been hip scored they are below the average too

Is the dams score even i.e. 8:8 & 1 or 2 on the individual areas ? If so I would take a chance, but have the puppy Penn Hipped as early as possible if I was going to do any form of activity like agility so I would know if it was going to be possible for the puppy to take part or if I was intending to breed from the puppy at a later date. You can Penn Hip from 4 months old

Yes the dams score is even. Thanks

I think, if I were the bitch owner, I would be trying to find a stud with a very very low hip score in those circumstances - and a low EBV value too.  A stud at the highest acceptable level, wouldn't be what I'd be looking for...

You've got to be happy with this mating. Is there a reason why they've chosen this dog? How does he complement this bitch and also does he have any progeny?

Taking an educated guess at the parents based on your info - if I’m right, neither parent has been elbow scored or eye tested. Also the dam’s last litter was only September last year and the dog (same owner) isn’t 2 until December (recommended that dogs and bitches should be over 2 before breeding and reputable breeders of the breed know this and the reason why), so when is the litter due?
Also neither parent has been shown.
The hip scores on their own wouldn’t worry me too much depending on relatives scores. Although only one pup from a previous litter is scored (12).

I was having a nosey at litters and wondered if it was that bitch. Same dog used for the 3rd time?

If the hip score of the male is 11 then it’ll probably be her own (currently underage) dog as the previous dog used scored 7.

I wouldn't want a puppy from a bitch who hasn't had a good year between litters and where neither parent has had the full health tests recommended for the breeds.

I can’t find any info on their elbow scoring. Both eye tested and clear. Mating isn’t occurring until the autumn. The pup from a previous litter that has been scored has a different Dad.

By the time the mating occurs. It will be at least a year since the last litter. All health tests have been done, except elbow tests. I didn’t think the elbow test was a must according to the KC. It’s not mentioned in the scheme/advice.

It may not be on the KC list for elbows to be scored, but as far as I am aware there are no breeds in which ED does not occur & therefore I would expect all breeds to screen for ED. I notice many NSDTR breeders screen for ED as well as HD.

I wonder if this breeder fully health tests her other breeds. I thought I recognised the name from a book she wrote & other public appearances.

NSDTR are such a versatile breed pity this breeder does nothing apparently with them other than breed a litter a year !

Thanks everyone for your input. I just want to do the right thing in all aspects of getting a puppy

Dam is hereditary clear for both eye diseases, sire is hereditary clear for PRA only - so no actual testing done, relying on hereditary status alone (and since it’s possible for mix ups due to human error, most breeders don’t rely on both parents being hereditary clear).
Neither parent has had the annual eye test unless it was very recent so not yet recorded.
The breed club recommends elbow scoring as elbow dysplasia does occur in the breed so there is no excuse for not doing it.

Also although the bitch has had 2 litters already to another NSDTR, this will actually be her 4th litter. The first was a mating to a Miniature Poodle 9 months before the first registered litter and were advertised as ‘Duckadoodles’...

Sorry, I didn’t realise the eye test was annual or the fact that hereditary clear isn’t tested clear. I’ve still got a lot to learn.

Hereditary clear ‘should’ be clear, but I know of several dogs who have been given incorrect results so it’s always best to ensure at least one parent is actually tested.

Have you looked at the health page on the club website? It gives a lot of information on the various tests available.

Embarrassing, but yes! I’m never off all the websites. Feel like I’m obsessed! Needing “L” plates haha!

It’s my breed so feel free to ask if you have any more questions :-)

Which is why the ISDS require claims for normal/clear by parentage is proven by DNA profiling of parents & offspring. Dams are always known by breeders as they give bitch, but sites can only be proven by parental DNA testing.

Interestingly the previous sire is a carrier for DM yet none of the puppies has been DNA tested for DM status. Also the bitch was only DNA tested for DM after the first litter & knowing that the dog is a carrier.

Changed my opinion run a mile is now my advice

Are you breeding soon? Haha!

> Interestingly the previous sire is a carrier for DM yet none of the puppies has been DNA tested for DM status. Also the bitch was only DNA tested for DM after the first litter & knowing that the dog is a carrier.

Previous sire is also untested for DE and the bitch was only tested last year, thankfully she’s clear but the breeder didn’t know that at the time of her 2nd litter to the dog!

Shows why it’s so important to be part of a breed community and join breed clubs if you’re going to breed.

> Are you breeding soon? Haha!

Where are all the questions to make sure my dogs are tested?

Feel free to send me a PM and we’ll see if we can point you in the direction of a reputable breeder.

oh they will come if I think you are reputable.   thanks. I will pm you later. I’m at work now.

Certainly in my breed that would be no issue as anything below a score of 20 would be functionally normal.

This sounds like a breed with overall good hips and a dog is more than a pair of hips especially if there are other health issues that the breeder has cleared the dogs for.

Also is the breed small where discarding dogs and bitches with otherwise good traits for a slightly higher score would be foolish.

My best moving bitch who took normal exercise to her death at nearly 15 1/2 had a score of 14, and her daughter now heading for 15 still does the same. 

All their descendants have had better scores, but have since used more experienced vets for the xrays.

A few points difference can happen on plates submitted by vets who don't do many xrays for scoring.

Yes a dog is more than a pair of hips but putting 2 higher scoring parents together you've got to ask what are they hoping to achieve with this mating and why haven't they done all the relevant tests in both parents.
Are either shown or worked to prove their reasoning for breeding on from this combo as well.

Sadly some people overlook health tests results because of beauty or working ability. For me that needs to be there but so does health and temperament.
I think this would be a moot point if the bitch was fully health tested and put to a male who is very low scoring and also fully health tested too.

> I think this would be a moot point if the bitch was fully health tested

I was answering only he hip score issue, as answering the first post.

I would expect all other breed relevant health tests, temperament breed traits to be a forgone conclusion.

The more testing that is available will lead to more complex decisions than a simple yes or no.