Ive just registered on this site to gain some opinions. I bought a male mastiff puppy 8 months ago. Two weeks later we decided that we would go back and purchase a female from a different litter with the thought of possibly breeding. The breeders are one of the top breeders in the country. They had three litters just days apart. The male is excellent but the female has had problems walking and limping. We told the breeders months ago to which they said this is normal for giant breeds and all their bitches had that kind of walk. We even sent them a video. She has got progressively worse and to cut a long story short the specialist vet has told us that she has hip displasia and a torn cruciate ligament in her knee. Knee will cost £4000 and when fully grown hips will be roughly £8000 plus she will need spayed. We have given the breeder some choices which are somewhat controversial. 1, that they take her back and give a refund, 2. They give a refund and we keep her and put it towards surgery, 3. They give us another bitch and take her back. I have owned cane corsos, dogue de bordeauxs and neapolitan mastiffs. I am insured up to £3000. I feel that this is the worst outcome and the breeders are already saying that hip displasia cant be diagnosed until after a year and that we have over excersised them even though i have had two vets diagnose it and if anything they are under excersised as the female has always hated walking.

Firstly you have made the mistake of buying two puppies too close together in age to give them chance to developing as individuals & with large giant breeds you run a greater risk of them accidentally causing damage to each other. I would never get a puppy from a breeder who would sell two puppies from the same litter or very near in age.

Having said that having three litters within days of each other is incredibly hard work & again I would steer clear of such a breeder unless even though they may be the top breeders in the country.

Also were all the parents fully health tested for HD & ED & have scores below the breed median for hips & 0 for elbows ? Plus have they had all other tests done ?

HD can be diagnosed from 4 months of age using the Penn Hip method which assesses hips at their worse rather best as with the UK scoring. I would certainly have a potential breeding animal Pennhipped at the youngest age possible. The breeder is partially correct in that scoring can be done only at 12 months onwards.

As for offering you a full refund in 1 & 2 I would expect that from a responsible breeder in any breed. 3 is also acceptable although I would have to consider having another dog from the same source very objectively.

For a large breed I would have thought you would have taken out a higher level of insurance than £3000.

Probably not what you want to hear but it is IMHO

Firstly, welcome to the forum

Welcome to the forum, your situation is very unfortunate, IMO very few reputable breeders would sell two similar age puppies especially with the buyer stating they may want to breed from them, when you say "top breeder" is this in reference to showing, breeding a lot of puppies, rigorous health testing or the breeders own opinion.  From what you have said the bitch has had problems from early on and you have made the breeder aware of the vet's findings, I think the breeders should take her back and you accept a refund if they haven't offered to do this themselves and have made various excuses to put the onus on you then I would draw my own conclusions on their breeding practices.  I would certainly agree that with your previous large breed experience you are woefully under insured, I do hope you resolve this with the breeder as soon as possible.

I suppose the question is always how long is a breeder responsible (in terms of a full refund) for those puppies they sell.   As a retired breeder, I'd not look at making a full refund after 8 months, after all environment plays perhaps as big a part in how a puppy develops, as do genetics.  Were you in contact with these breeders recently?   Of course I'd take a puppy back, with a full refund, within weeks of them going to a new home if the buyer wasn't happy with their pup - if only to get that puppy out of that situation and back with me.   I would try to make it work - eg asking them to come with the puppy and me, to my vet for an assessment (all my puppies went with an individual health check however).   And not to suggest I'd not have concerns if a puppy I'd bred had 'fallen apart' to the extent your youngster apparently now has.

So these people are 'top breeders' - in terms of show success, or quantity!!   Of course many bigger breeders will do their litters during the 'closed' main show season but to be doing 3 in a short space of time would have alarm bells ringing for me.   And further, did they sell your puppies fully endorsed - good breeders will endorse immature stock, and even more so if they know the owners intend to start breeding.   They should retain the option to see the youngsters later on, when closer to breeding age, so they can see whether they have matured into quality animals before lifting the endorsement not to breed, to protect the breed as much as their bloodlines.   Hip dysplasia can be diagnosed early on, but not scored.

It's disappointing, obviously and worrying given the figures you may be facing but again stuff happens.   I bought, at 4 months, a male from somebody who'd been in my main breed probably longer than I have.  I hoped to get back in the ring with him, but apart from the fact that shortly after I bought him home, his stools were so bad that I had a fecal done which showed he had Giardia, and roundworm eggs (despite being assured he'd been at least wormed for that).  Further, a few months later he started showing some lameness and full x-rays showed he had premature closure of the growth plates, ulna, both sides.  He developed more turn-out in front than I wanted (even with a Basset).   I invited his breeder to contribute to the cost of all this - they sent me £100.  Hum.  If the dog hadn't been such a nice person to live with, I might have returned him - and dickered over a refund than.  As it was he wasn't going back and I've had to swallow his ongoing construction problems which have included more x-rays which now, at 8 years, show significant sub-luxation of the hips and a spine that makes me wonder how he's still mobile.   He's on Metacam for as long as he will tolerate it.

What you do about your bitch is going to be your decision, but I do question whether you should/can expect a full refund for a bitch you bought as A PUPPY and who 8 months on, has fallen apart.   It would be different had you bought her, at a significantly higher price, as a young adult, ready to be bred from.   JMO.

As they had 3 litters at the same time, which is a lot, do you know if they are licensed breeders? A licensed breeder would have to be dealt with like a business, and if you told them at the time you bought the bitch that you wanted to breed from her, then she is not fit for the purpose she was sold. An unlicensed hobby breeder (which most breeders would be classified as - i.e. not breeding to make money, and not breeding more than currently 4 litters per year maximum) however, is not covered by consumer laws. There it's a question of buyer beware -you buy what you see in front of you on the day, as seen.

A RESPONSIBLE breeder who cares about their dogs, their buyers and their reputation, would certainly help out in one way or another -whether required to legally or not.

Did you discuss with the breeder that you wanted a breeding bitch?

Your breed should be hip scored as a minimum, with elbow scoring also being recommended. Was her parents hip scored and of so. What we're the results?

Did you sign a contract when your brought her? If you did what does it say about returns?

If its the same breeder I can find who had 3 litters within 4 days of each other back in July;
The first litter both patients are hip scored but the mother's score is very high, breed 15year median is 12 hers is 33.
The second litter neither patients were tested.
The third litter only the sire is hip scored.

If it is, did they explain the hip scoring results/lack of testing?