Good afternoon, newbie here and just wanted to get some advice/opinions on the below situation, before I get started though I just want to say that I know breeders do not have a crystal ball, I know dog owners are responsible for the health and wellbeing of their dogs, that there is still hope that it will drop as far out as 12 months and I know that sometimes shit happens… the advice I seek is not related to those points, these are all known and accepted.

We have had our GSP puppy for two weeks now and he is around 10 weeks old, and sadly he only has one dropped testicle, not the end of the world but we did hope to keep him as natural as possible and stud him at least 1 or 2 (ideally so we could have one of his sons with us) both of which were made clear to the breeder from the outset. We found out about the testicle issue when we took him for his first vaccination and it was a surprise to us as we had not been informed of this issue by the breeder before we collected and paid the full amount.

Now here is the important bit before crystal balls get mentioned, when I raised this with the breeder she told me that she was aware as her vet had mentioned it, but she forgot to tell me before I paid and collected the dog.

The initial response from the breeder was bring him back and we will refund him, now he is our family dog, and we had already brought him into our home and committed to giving him the best possible life we could, therefore returning him now is not an option. It would have been a tough decision before we collected him due to the fact we had visited him a few times previously, but had we been informed when the vet informed the breeder, we would have had a better chance to consider our options.

I really want his ball to drop, I really don’t want to have him operated on if I can avoid it (for his welfare, we have insurance) and we are going to wait as long as we can to see if it drops…. But, under these circumstance should we have been sold a dog, at full price, with a pre-existing condition, without being informed? Especially as all the other boys from the litter have two dropped balls and the previous litter didn’t’ have this issue, therefore this should have been considered ‘normal’.

The main thing is he is healthy, and he is an amazing, gorgeous, loving bundle of energy, but I can’t help that feel this isn’t how it should be done and that this isn’t just a case of ‘shit happens’

Thanks any advice or opinions on this 

Scott

> But, under these circumstance should we have been sold a dog, at full price, with a pre-existing condition, without being informed? Especially as all the other boys from the litter have two dropped balls and the previous litter didn’t’ have this issue, therefore this should have been considered ‘normal’.

If your purpose is to obtain some sort of reduction in price from the breeder, I personally would never ever do this to the buyer of my puppy, but instead offer to bring the puppy back for full refund as your breeder already done.

If you are just wondering whether the breeder wronged you somehow, my answer would also be ‘no’. Your puppy does not have a pre-existing condition as there is still plenty of time for the testicle to drop. If having both testicles in place at 8 weeks was important to you, you should have ensured it was so before buying the puppy. As for the breeder it’s perfectly reasonable that she may have forgotten to tell you, as it is nowhere a big deal given the age of the pup. Plus the fact that the breeder offered you a full refund, to me only confirms that she did and meant nothing wrong....

Thanks for the response, it is good to see a 'breeders' perspective on this.

However, anyone who is not a breeder and who owns a dog for genuine reasons like love and companionship would know that 'bringing the puppy back for a full refund' even after only a week of ownership is a worthless offer, what kind of decent person would just give a puppy back under those circumstances, its a pretty heartless act.

I would argue as most dogs (80%) have dropped both testicles by 8 weeks and that the other 3 boys in the litter had dropped both, then this should be considered at least as a potentially pre-existing condition, as stated on the original post I would be over the moon if it drops and I can forget all about this, this is about principle not money.

I wonder how many times as a breeder you have used the 'perfectly reasonable to have forgotten' line when you forgot to mention an issue with a puppy... if you bought a new car and the dealer forgot to mention there was an engine management light on I doubt you would be as relaxed about it.

Nice to see breeders have each other covered, would be good to see the opinion of any buyers out there...

Many puppies at 8 weeks do not have both testicles descended, just because the other puppie did then it doesn't mean that yours would. Testicles can go up and down like yoyo's when puppies are small and this is probably why the breeder thought and meant to mention it to you but forgot.
The breeder sounds perfectly good to me, you have been offered a full refund, many do not.
What exactly do you want, a cheaper puppy who you think might be defective and won't be suitable for what you had in mind, why not hand him back if he is so unsuitable. Besides which the missing testicle may we'll drop in time, they often do

Edited to add. I am not a breeder, never has been, I only ever have been someone who buys a puppy to be a much loved pet

> <br />I would argue as most dogs (80%) have dropped both testicles by 8 weeks

Incorrect. They can & do take much longer so all is not lost.

I've always checked if they are both there

> anyone who is not a breeder and who owns a dog for genuine reasons like love and companionship

I think it is also a shame you think that someone who has a litter from their dog doesnt have it for genuine reasons like love & companionship :(

Oh for pity's sake, this is a 10 week old puppy, many years ago one of my males had alternating descending testicles until he was around 5 months old. His breeder wisely told me to leave his"bits"alone & ignore an "expert's"advise to have him castrated pdq(the expert being a young locum vet who did his bloods for his titre test aged 14 weeks) his testicles settled at around 25 weeks & they were carried very high. If you keep pestering him he may well draw both testicles up & they may develop under the skin in his groin & become too big to descend down the inquinal canal into the scrotum. I know of one dog that had 2 descended testicles, but who's new owner's vet told them to check them daily the result was the pup got so upset the testicles ascended into the inquinal canal & grew to big to descend again. He had to be castrated(quite a complex operation I understand)in the end.

As to breeding from your dog just to get his sons for yourselves that is no reason to breed from a dog, you do not know at 12 weeks whether or not he will be worth breeding from, what if he develops hip or elbow dysplasia or an eye condition ? Are you in a position to find homes for the rest of the litters or rehome any puppies that become unwanted ? Dud you tell his breeder(s)that you were buying the puppy to breed from ? Are you going to work or show him ? Responsible breeders will not use a dog that hasn't been worked or shown & hasn't been FULLY health tested.

I do not breed, but all my bought in dogs have had full breeder back up including taking the puppy back at any stage & refunding the price. A good breeder will always offer this it's good practice & shows true concern for the fate of their dogs. If you are looking for a discount & to keep the puppy that is wrong. It is NOT a pre existing condition as in a physical defect or disease or genetic condition. Male puppies can & do draw up their testicles in the first 6 months to a year, no matter what it says on the internet sites you may have visited. Perhaps you should have this dna test done to prove or disprove that your puppy is a cryptorchid or not. By the way is it the left or right testicle that is retained at the moment ?

> However, anyone who is not a breeder and who owns a dog for genuine reasons like love and companionship would know ...

This actually made me laugh - it would appear in your mind the breeder has wronged you at the outset, by daring to own a dog for no genuine reason.... Oh wait, wasn’t it your intention too, to breed from your puppy?

Perhaps you may want to reconsider your ‘principles’

>> However, anyone who is not a breeder and who owns a dog for genuine reasons like love and companionship would know ...

<br />This actually made me laugh -

I didn't laugh.  I went WHOA there wait a minute!  Anyone who implies that I don't have dogs FOR GENUINE REASONS doesn't know me, and how dare they insinuate.  You laughed - I was mad as hell at such a rude person.

If this dog is eventually used at stud -  I hope he does what some stud dogs do.  And piddles all over the owners furniture.

I bred my last litter in 1989, and kept a male puppy with one gonad down, the other being discernable by touch in the inguinal canal. As he got to 5 months, some days it would almost be in place, but other days it was too high, and my vet thought that I should have him castrated and placed in a pet home, but I wanted to keep him as he was the last of his dam's line. By seven months he was in the ring and his anatomy was completely normal. He was never used at stud as his sire was the better dog for both size and breed type.

For me the breeder should have made sure you were aware this boy didn't have both Descended espicialy as you had told them you hoped to use/offer him at stud later on. No I don't think a reduction on his price would have been valid as it can be common and as you have said can come down after 8 weeks.
It could be they did simply make a mistake and forget they are only human after all and having a litter and finding good homes is often tough and tiring on the breeder. Once you contacted them informing them about it they offered you the chance to return the pup for a full refund if you wernt happy with him anymore as any good breeder should if a home changes their mind or has doubts for some reason.

If the other one doesn't drop you can still keep him as natural as possible and just have the retained one removed and the dropped one left where it is.

> if you bought a new car and the dealer forgot to mention there was an engine management light on I doubt you would be as relaxed about it.

That's not quite the same as the car has something wrong with it and is faulty, where as an 8 weeks old pup not having both descended yet isn't a faulty pup it can just be slower coming down. Also in the Instance of the the faulty car you would be in your right to return it for a full refund as it was sold not fit for purpose or as described, which the breeder did offer you.

A friend brought a pup who at 8 weeks they could feel both. But it then kept going up and down, one day they could only feel one down the next both were. On it went untill one day one went up and stayed up never to come down again.
My own pup I bred I could feel any, my friend could only find one. Was getting worried untill he had his vac at 9 weeks and the vet could find both they were just tiny. They grew in after a couple months

Did you tell the breeder that you wanted to breed? Is the puppy's registration endorsed or not? Personally I always endorse my pups "No progeny to be registered", simply because I don't have a crystal ball. A retained testicle is only one small part of it - good breeders will not want to commit to any pup they've bred being used for breeding until they have had their relevant health tests once adult (that should mean at least hip scoring for this breed, although I would definitely add eye testing to this) AND have proven themselves to be good examples of their breed, whether it is in a working or show capacity or both.

Then you have to consider the temperament (which may change after being allowed to sire litters) -is it good enough, correct for the breed? And is the dog generally healthy in all other ways -again once adult. In other words, WORTH breeding from for all the responsible reasons. It's the bitch owners who approach stud dog owners, not the other way around, and they have the entire world available to them to choose the best. Any bitch owner who asks to use a dog without health test results, show or working qualifications etc, is somebody just wanting to breed a litter to earn some cash. Which surely is not the sort of people you'd be wanting to produce pups from your dog. Those are the people who will sell a pup to anyone, no questions asked. I have stud dogs, I have never agreed to allow a stranger use any of them - I'd lay awake at night worrying about the pups -what if they ended up in bad homes, in a puppy farm, etc. If I already know somebody that wants to use one, then I will consider it. You see, us breeders care not only about OUR dogs, but the offspring they produce as well, even generations down the line. They all become part of our extended family -the dogs and the puppy buyers.

I will lift endorsements from dogs/bitches I have bred if the relevant breed specific health tests have been carried out with good results, if the dog has the correct temperament, is healthy overall, and has been shown or worked, proving they are a good example of their breed. I will never lift them for a dog kept as a pet only, and my contract states this.

On the other hand, if I sold a pup where I knew the new owner may want to show in future, then I would not sell them a pup that did not have both testicles at 8 weeks. In my experience it's a lottery -sometimes the second one drops, other times it doesn't. So unless both are there at time of sale I will only sell such a pup to a pet or working home. But obviously the buyer needs to tell me of their future plans.

Now I'm off to bed -assuming there is space as five of my show/breeding dogs sleep in the bedroom and/or the bed with my husband and I, as they may be showdogs and breeding dogs, but they are above all family. Which explains why I have a 12 year old bitch asleep on the couch next to me, and an almost 16 year old bitch asleep on another couch.

Lots of great advice and opinions here, sounds like there is still hope on the second testicle, and then I should be more relaxed about it!

Thank you

Goldmali - fantastic post!

As a retired breeder -

1.   Yes, the breeder should have 'remembered' to tell you the puppy wasn't complete at the time of the sale.  If only because if the missing testicle didn't appear in time, it would have to be found and surgically removed to prevent cancer in that testicle.   Sound 'convenient' to have forgotten.
2.   Regardless of your idea about using him at stud, good breeders sell ALL immature stock with endorsements, to be lifted only if, having seen the puppy again later on, close to when he might be used, he felt he was good enough to be used, and so remove the not for breeding endorsement.
3.   The breeder offered to take the puppy back.  I'm sure he/she understood that even after one week, you would have bonded with the puppy, but all that was legally required of a breeder, was done.   It's your decision whether or not to return the puppy but if you decline, then the breeder has done all they could do.
4.   Using him at stud would involve having your dog tested for all the relevant problems within the breed and finding an owner with a suitable bitch, who has also been tested, who'd be interested in using your pet (unshown?) dog.  It's not usual for the owner of the male to look for somebody to use the dog - owners of bitches normally approach the owner of the dog.  And there'd be no guarantee any resulting puppies would be 'like your dog'.   There may only be those who take after mum.  And you would have to have some knowledge of the breed and the various bloodlines before allowing your male to be used at stud.  
5.   You would probably have been looking at paying the full price at the time you bought this puppy because testicles are only one part of the whole (having a nice pet) even if in my opinion you perhaps should have been made aware of the situation so you could decide whether to buy this particular puppy, knowing that eventually (and this could wait until he's at least a year old) he might need surgery to find and remove the missing testicle.

Buying a puppy is very much a 'buyer beware' situation I'm afraid.

anyone who is not a breeder and who owns a dog for genuine reasons like love and companionship

stud him at least 1 or 2..... doing this would actually make you a breeder, at which point - on your logic - you stop owning him for love and companionship

my view as a buyer (looking to buy a dog to breed with) and breeder is that i get the impression that you had already planned to use the dog at stud before you brought him home? if this is the case, then you are planning to become a breeder yourself and should have done your homework and checked the puppy yourself before paying and taking him home. you mentioned that you visited several times, so assuming you had plenty of opportunity to check this.
yes, the breeder was wrong not to tell you of the situation, but personally i dont feel they are fully to blame.

as others have said, 10 weeks is still early and you may find that it ends up not being a problem :-)

To  be fair as someone who only keeps bitches, and as I sell most of my puppies as companions, so entirety or lack of at age 8 - 12 weeks has never been an issue and to be honest I never feel for them at that age.

I have yet to be told that a pup wasn't entire, I assume I might be told if that were the case when pup was seen by owners vet.

Anyone who ahs had ne they wanted to show have3 checked themselves, as they have usually been existing exhibitors.

I am crap at finding them, can usually tell there is something there but not if it is one or two, but then my breed doesn't really have an issue with undescended ones as a rule.

> But, under these circumstance should we have been sold a dog, at full price, with a pre-existing condition,

AS many pet owners choose/are encouraged to castrate their pets anyway this does not impact on him being a pet, and if that is what he was sold as, then yes full price is fair as he isn't defective.

The vast majority of pet males especially are never destined to be bred from.

As far as pre-existing goes, it is very likely that it will appear in due course, and there is no urgency to operate if it doesn't.

I have been in that position myself, having bought a puppy who was inspected by the breeder's vet and given a satisfactory health report. He turned out to have a small hernia and was cryptorchid. I informed the breeder so she was aware that the mating should not be repeated and had the dog in for surgery at the age of 15 months to remove the retained testicle only. I wasn't offered any money back nor did I expect it. That was more than a decade ago, and it has had an impact on my attitude as a breeder. My last litter is now 15 weeks old. One of the males reserved only had one testicle descended when he went to his new family at 8 weeks. I informed the family before they were due to collect him, explained that the other testicle might still drop at some point over the next few months but offered them the option to withdraw from the sale if they wished. They were very clear that they wanted him anyway. I have asked them to let me know how he gets on and if he ends up with a retained testicle I will pay for his surgery. That is my decision--no pressure at all from his family.

Did the breeder know you wanted him for stud?  Is the pup endorsed for breeding?

As a breeder I always tell owners 'if' a testicle hasn't dropped and my vet writes it on the pups report, and I declare it on the puppy insurance before they leave,  but it's not a health issue, puppy is fit and healthy

We returned a pet dog of around 12 weeks whose testicles had not dropped - not something we had encountered before and had no way of examining for. The vet advised us at the puppy's health check the day after we acquired the puppy that in the event the testicle/s did not ultimately drop there may be the need for abdominal surgery as there can be numerous issues associated with a retained testicle. Yes we were told the testicles might well descend: but then again they might not, and we would have the cost, heartache, worry and aftercare of a dog after major surgery. The utterly inexperienced and ignorant breeder was appalling and treated us like dog abusers when we returned the puppy having had it for two days, during which we incidentally identified it as having ear mites. The cost to us of the vet inspection was of course not refunded. Breeders should have lifelong responsibility for any dog they breed, and would soon be a lot more careful if they knew that vet costs relating to inherited diseases and failures of care of puppies were to be their worry. That would make puppies a lot more expensive of course - which would make more people think carefully about taking on puppies: what's not to like?

Really ? The breeder responsible for any veterinary costs for the life of the dog ?? Thank god the pup is no longer with you

Did the testicle make an appearance in the end? I feel for you as my collie, who had 2 pea-sized testicles when I bought him at 7-8 weeks of age, had a testicle go back up again. It never reappeared and, on the advice of my vet, he was castrated at around 14 months old. After the op the vet said it was a good job he'd had the castration as the retained testicle was quite tricky to find. In his opinion it would very likely to have lead to cancer if he hadn't removed it.

It was more in the way of a thought experiment than a serious proposition. Hard to police and very possibly bad ultimately for a puppy's welfare since many breeders would undoubtedly deny responsibility for problems later in life. One reason I would never breed was the worry of being responsible for the sort of terrible disease which for example ended the life of Bouvier de Flandres a friend owned - dead from cancer at 2 or a Bracco italiano similarly dead from skin cancer very young - or a black lab crippled by hip problems and dead at 6. In each case the owners bore the emotional and financial costs and in each case the breeder did not - I am not saying the breeders were heartless and they may have offered to take back the dogs - I don't know - however breeding should be seen as a very very serious responsibility. If the creation of new life was seen as less of a hobby and more of a professionalised endeavour with serious financial implications in cases of poor practice or of reckless indifference to the consequences of mistakes then perhaps that would be a good thing. This is a far cry from the topic of testicles of course - nonetheless to brush off any concern about puppy development as being trivial when it may have serious implications for future health seems to me to be wrong. If I had bred a male puppy with a testicle waiting to descend I would not dream of selling that puppy or indeed giving it away until the problem was resolved - same goes for any other health problem in a puppy.

Wow so breeders should keep ALL puppies until they have 2 permanently descended testicles, all their adult teeth, bitches to have a normal season, be old enough to be hip & elbow screened, their ear carriage is correct, etc etc. They would NEVER be able to sell/part with any puppies as conditions like epilepsy/cancer/glaucoma may not manifest until late in a dogs life & you canmot DNA test for ALL condition especially those that are multicausal.

Basically what you expect is a perfectly healthy puppy & breeders to be responsible for the health of their puppies for the dogs full life.

Are you aware it is yet to be proven that any form Cancer is genetic ? Skin cancer can be caused by exposure to UV rays & outside of the breeder's control.

The effects of HD can be exacerbated by exercise & diet-things which are outside of the control of the breeder.

Epilepsy can be caused by disease or drugs, again outside of a breeder's control.

Yet you would hold the breeder responsible if a dog they bred developed such a condition ??

Unfortunately, even our children can suffer from health problems which have possible genetic links. Who would you wish to hold responsible for these cases?

Wow I really can't believe what I am reading. Breeders responsible for everything that could happen ! .crystal ball anyone ?

And many diseases that as yet we don't know the cause of or can't  test for.is that the breeders responsiblity too ?

The best that any breeder can do is to minimise the risk of any puppy not being healthy (by breeding from sound, healthy parents and rearing the litter correctly). A good breeder will require a new owner to have a puppy checked by their vet within a week of purchase (at their own expense) and if any problems are discovered that hadn't been pointed out to the new owner, then the puppy is to be returned for a full refund. However after that the new owner has far more influence on the puppy's health and welfare than the breeder and so the responsibility is theirs. If the owner's circumstances change and they can no longer keep the dog, a good owner will do all they can to help - perhaps taking the dog back themselves, or by finding a suitable other person to take it.

However ther's absolutely no way that a breeder can guarantee that a dog will be healthy for its whole life, any more than parents can guarantee that for their own children, mush as they'd like to!

Sorry but i think that you should forget about ever owning a dog if you expect the breeder to be responsible for its lifetime! As soon as i own a dog it becomes MY responsibility to ensure that it receives the best possible treatment for any problems it may develop.  Just my opinion.

Not just your opinion goldenfrenzyy but mine too and I suspect many others.

No one forces anyone to become a pet owner & with pet ownership comes responsibility. It doesn't matter whether the pet is a Shire horse or a mouse or anything inbetween the responsibility, in the end, lies with the owner.

I breed sheep & anyone getting a tup or ewe from me takes the risk that it may or may not be exactly what is wanted, the animal may be infertile or become infertile & as sheep do, drop dead the next day for absolutely no reason, all I can do is take all steps to produce a healthy animal.

In a perfect world everything would be perfect, but we live in a very imperfect world.

Good breeders the ones we should be supporting and looking to buy from do feel responsiblity and do all they can to avoid problems.                              
the pups are their babies  and they want nothing but a good home and health for them .
the things u cite very sad would not be something a breeder could forsee or prevent.
I lost my gsd recently to cancer .one common in the breed.same with my flatcoat a breed who is known to have problems with cancer and that research is being done.
should I blame the breeder ? Should I claim the 7k it cost to have her treated and still I lost her
.bloat was,that the breeders fault ? It's now thought there is a breed predisposition .
Allergies ? The breeder ?
I could go on but think ive said enough

Best thing to do ? Don't have dogs or cats for that matter. Living beings have things happen maybe we should take as much care when breeding humans !

As long as the new owners weren't conned/duped into buying the puppy at the outset, there surely has to be a limit as to for how long a breeder is responsible for that puppy.   Unless something shows up within a few weeks of the puppy going home, and especially if it goes with a full health check from my vet, then it was 'over to you', new owner.   It can't be anything more unless an individual situation says otherwise.   To protect my reputation, I'd view each problem on it's own merits.

I see no reason in principle why a breeder should not have some sort of responsibility for a puppy lifelong though as said I realise it is not possible in practice to enforce that. For example in the case of a feckless owner: if I was the breeder I would absolutely want to take the puppy back and rehome it or care for it if an owner suddenly decided they could no longer keep the dog. Or if the owner died: who better to care for the dog than the breeder? In the case where there is a dispute as to responsibility between owner and breeder as the result of a health problem developing: even if I felt it was an unfair imposition on me, if I were the breeder I would still prefer to take the dog back and deal with the problem. I may confidently say that because I have no intention of being a breeder, of course. But in principle I do feel that way. The fact is that in the pedigree sector there are many known examples where breeds may tend to develop painful or life-threatening conditions, often fairly young,. If you don't want to take responsibility for a puppy duly developing such a condition as a dog: the 100% sure way is not to breed. We saw a litter advertised and did a kennel club check on the inbreeding coefficient: it was 25%. We once owned a dog who was the product of first cousins (not in itself very unusual though his health from age 8 to 12 was only so-so and included three years of dry eye) and he had had a 13% coefficient; so the litter I came across was twice as close in breeding as first cousins: this seems to me bad practice though not an inevitable cause of problems. Did the breeder volunteer that the pups were unusually inbred? No - it was caveat emptor. I was told by a canine ophthalmologist that one of my dogs had the eye physiology suggestive of developing glaucoma in mid life and I should not breed from him (not that I was going to). As it happens he has not developed glaucoma. But there is nothing to stop me breeding from him still (except he is very old now!) except good conscience. If I did breed from him would I be responsible if the resulting puppies lived otherwise normal lives and then developed glaucoma around age 7 or 8? I think so: not because the line of cause and effect is definite but because I knowingly took the risk. Anyway the breeding community as represented by comments here is very unwilling to even consider the idea that their hobby produces consequences for which they are responsible even if they are unintended or unprovable consequences ... twas ever thus in unregulated businesses where producers hold the cards. And yes, replying to earlier comments, if there is slow or unusual development in a puppy or sickliness or uncertainty about some condition then it is fairer to everyone including the puppy to act on the precautionary principle. If - and I don't know how much research there is - there is increased incidence of cryptorchidism in any given breed then I would like to think that breeders in that breed with a puppy who *seems* to be cryptorchid would accept there may be a risk and see how the puppy develops. At the very least they should know about it and disclose it to buyers.

Every breeder should defernatly be willing to take back a dog they produced at any point in its life if needed and is of course something any good breeder would do.

Financial Responsibility for health problems I would only agree on for problems that could be either chances reduced or eliminated with testing and the breeder didn't do the test. Past that we are not talking about a machine where all the parts are made by someone and checked so any issue past normal ware and tear or misuse could likely be put down to human error. when talking about a living thing I don't think a breeder should be financially liable for a health problem if it's something they had no way of preventing or reducing the risk of. You can't guarantee things like that with a living thing, a good breeder will do what they can but even with aol the testing in the world it's still no garentee a dog won't ever get something later.
So if say a lab had hip problems and the breeder had not bothered to hip scored the parents that's totally different to a lab having hip problems but the breeder had tested the parents, grandparents, great grandparents ect and all had low scores. Although I do believe buyers should also take some responsibility, if you brought a puppy from a breeder who doesn't do the breed recommend testing (or in the case of crosses tests recommend for all breeds in the mix) then you chose to take that unknown risk more fool you.

In my last litter the puppy we kept had one retained testicle. We opted to have him neutered at 18 months old and the operation and recovery after surgery wasn't really any different to a normal castration. I really don't see how you can expect a breeder to be responsible for any health issue throughout the life of a dog? I ensure that my litter's parents have all the required health tests before breeding them and provide copies of the health certificates. They go with 5 weeks free insurance and a letter from my vet saying the puppy was checked by them as fit and healthy the day before the pup leaves me. I provide a contract that says the pup should be taken to the new owners vet within 24 hours of moving to it's new home and if the vet finds any issue the pup should be returned for a full refund. I will also provide a full refund if the pup is returned to me up to 12 weeks old and a 50% refund if the pup is returned to me up to 6 months of age. My contract also states that the pup should be returned to me if the owner cannot keep it for the life of the dog.

I always recommend that my puppy owners continue to insure their dog but I can't enforce that.

I agree that in some breeds there are known health issues. I would always advise that anyone buying a puppy does their homework, waits for the right puppy and if at all concerned should choose a different breed. Ultimately it is a case of buyer beware.

It seems to me that there’s a lot that the breeder can do to give their pups the best chance to be happy and healthy (health testing parents, careful mate selection, socialising and rearing pups well, etc) and certainly *some* breeders could be doing better with these things.

But realistically there are going to be problems occasionally that no one could predict, no matter how careful the breeder was. I suppose if that happened to me, I would certainly expect support from the breeder and for them to work with me to figure out if there was a genetic cause. Not because I’d want them to take the dog back or pay for treatment, but to try to reduce the risk of problems in their future litters.

And I’d expect the breeder to explain any potential conditions the breed is prone to and if there have been any issues with any of their dogs, before I even saw any pups.

I’m almost completely convinced I couldn’t give up a pup after I’d started thinking of it as mine, whatever the health problems. I’m just a bit soft I think!

Nope you are normal

If I had rejected my main working dog because one of his testicles was slow descending at 12 weeks, I would have missed out on the on the dog of a lifetime. His "flaw"corrected itself at 10 months & he is a joy to own & work with.

Trouble is we live in a blame culture, if something goes wrong someone has to be to blame. Sometimes things just happen for no reason at all, ask any shepherd or sheep farmer that

> For example in the case of a feckless owner: if I was the breeder I would absolutely want to take the puppy back and rehome it or care for it if an owner suddenly decided they could no longer keep the dog. Or if the owner died: who better to care for the dog than the breeder?

That is exactly what most good breeders do, some going to quite some length to get dogs back.

A friend recently was heartbroken when a relatively young owner of her pup died and both her dogs were taken in by SPCA, and she could not get him back no matter the signed contract she had with the deceased owner.

They refused to pass on his parental health screening (DNA and clinical tests)which would have been very useful re their dogs health. She asked her details be passed on, no.

She was lucky, ours is a numerically small breed and as luck would have it, the new owner joined our breed Facebook groups.So thankfully breeder and owner are now in contact.

The way I see it:

A responsible breeder will only breed from the best bitches to stud dogs who's qualities suit. Health, temperament and type are always at the forefront of any planned litters with all relevant health tests for the breed being carried out and if the score isn't acceptable, the dog isn't bred from. The bitch is taken good care of to ensure she is in good condition throughout pregnancy, whelping and rearing litter and pups are also well cared for once on the ground with the best diet, regularly wormed etc and vet checks before going to new owners. If any fault is found, whether that be a hernia, undescended testicles, or even something as menial as lack of pigment which would mean the dog isn't to be shown/bred from, the breeder would make the new owners aware so that it would then be their choice whether or not they take the puppy on. Within the contracts I've had when buying a puppy, there was a 14 day window for me to take my puppy to my own vets for a health check and if any new issue was found I could return them to the breeder for a full refund. The breeder will have done everything they possibly could to ensure a healthy litter.

It is a puppy buyers choice to take in a dog - no one else's. Breeders do not force you to buy one of their dogs, they only want the very best homes for their babies. If you haven't asked to see paperwork for the parents health test results, or seen a poor score and still decided to take a puppy then you must take responsibility for when it develops the problem (such as elbow/hip dysplasia). You also take the puppy on the understanding that you are now in charge of caring for that puppy and carrying on health care (flea and worming, vaccinations, vet checks etc) but that there are some things that cannot be prevented and is not the responsibility of the breeder eg. accidents, picking up a "bug", getting a tic on a walk, ripping a nail and that is why you should either take out pet insurance or save XX amount each month to ensure you can cover any costs for YOUR dog!

I have 2 healthy breeds with little to no known health conditions. My keeshond is PHPT clear by parentage, and my JS comes from 2 parents with no issues of patella. Their breeders did everything in their control to make sure they wouldn't develop these conditions, but it wasn't their fault when my kees picked up a stomach bug when he was 2 and I had to rush him into the vets or when my JS ripped his nail and needed surgery to remove it. It didn't even cross my mind to ask them to foot the bill, I let them know what had happened to the puppy they loved and cared for so much (and still do years later). They are still such a big part of their lives, and offer me support if I ever need it to keep caring for my dogs and that is all I can ask of them as responsible breeders.

> Trouble is we live in a blame culture,

No - we live in a COMPENSATION culture/society

Well blimey thank goodness the puppy went back to the breeder - I had a dog that also on first vet inspection couldn't find any testicles. I had intended to show said puppy but the puppy stayed. We kept him loved him and didn't care that only one appeared - no major expensive surgery occurred as on investigation he only actually had one anyway! He didn't get to be shown but all my dogs are pets first anyway!

Ps you can examine for testicles - I learnt this having had this happen - I now always check for them.

No one has a crystal ball on any issues - breeders to their best (well the good ones do!) to eliminate known health issues but in life their is not guarantees.

I've learned about checking for.them to since the only boy I've had only ever had one. The other was in the abdomen. He had both removed with not too much trouble and the insurance paid as it was consider health