Managed to watch the Working Dog Group Judging on UTube last night and immediately picked out the BC,  stunning,  can't remember if it is a boy or girl but was so pleased when it won Best in Group.  Anyone else agree?

Working group was won by the Newfie, it was the pastoral group the collie won.

I didn't watch last night ..... did the GSD make the cut and what was it like?

The Border Collie (Pastoral Group) was stunning. I do like collies :-)
While I was watching, there was only a very brief glimpse of the GSD.

Hardly saw the GSD, it wasn't picked out. In the brief glance given it looked to me that the handler had his foot behind its feet to stop it putting its leg back. Couldn't see its gait from the view given by the camera

Oh blow!  My favourite breed and I didn't watch.  Serves me right - I've just checked TV times and will definitely watch now.  I just hope I get the chance to see the BC.

The "BC"is a bitch imported from Australia. Very thick in the head & apart from the size looked like a male. Not impressed as not a working dog in my eyes. Be interesting to see if she has a working test certificate.

Can never understand why they stack & hold up the ears on show line BCs

Lives in Ireland and not my type of BC either although she was presented in beautiful coat and condition.

She, the Group Winning BC, certainly has an Australian background BUT if she was imported, I wonder why she's not shown as an Australian Imp?  I don't know enough about the finer points of the breed, but she struck me as having a much fuller coat than is normally seen.   I'll have to look at her on the move, in the BIS competition tomorrow.   I did think a lot of the Hound Group BOBs, which I did watch yesterday, had odd front movement, coming towards.   Maybe ok for their breed tho.   The BOB Basset (so many overseas exhibits + actual imports in the entry!) was def. not exaggerated (unusual colour for a Switherland ) but she wasn't very eyecatching!!    Still at least she made the cut.   Loved the wire Dachsie.   And of course, the Whippet - so like mine for colouring at least.

She was definitely imported from Australia but to Ireland where the Huntly kennel is based.

No idea on border collies but she looked short on leg? Or was that the coat hiding them? Tv can be deceiving.
I always felt they were on average taller than her in the show ring? Working collies are a totally different kettle of fish i understand that

Just to clarify the origin of the "BC" winner she is from the Nahrof Australian Kennels & is an import. Typical of this kennel with a very overdone head even for a male let alone a female. The showline dogs are sadly very short on the leg in general & with too much bone. As they are shown stack & held in position in stance it is difficult too assess the underlying conformation & structure especially carrying such a heavy coat. On the move as with a lot of show dogs the choker is tight under the ears & the head carried higher than is natural if the dog has correct conformation & in hard dry condition. The last group winning BC was from abroad to & moved in a very in typical way.
Watching her move on YouTube & being handled she looks a very introverted character, she had to be held in place & yes moved on a tight lead & choker. Lacking the low head carriage despite what the commentators said, Peter Purvis even called her him !!! Not an athletic dog at all. So very sad the pubic see this type of chocolate box "BC" as a "good" type

Well I used to own a border collie and I thought that this one was lovely.

But not a dog that could work for a living sadly as I wrote a chocolate box dog & typical of what happens to a breed adopted by a foreign country & inbred to produce clones.

This kennel by the way exported a dog to the UK that was allegedly CL clear, unfortunately he was a carrier & used on several bitches before this was disclosed after a puppy he sired died(CL affected dogs all die) One of the penalties of importing closely bred dogs from abroad, which have been bred only for their appearance. I did think at the time when these first foreign "BCs"arrived in the UK that they would bring unknown genetic conditions due to the very close breeding behind them( they trace back to a handful of working dogs exported many decades ago & some lines include a Kelpie bloodline although this is now denied) & sadly this was true. At least as far as I know none of the offspring were bred from & registered with the KC as "BCs" whether any were bred from unregistered I don't know.

The beauty of the working sheepdog should be it's ability to work & watching a sheepdog control stock with just it's natural behaviour is always amazing, sadly from this bitch's tucked tail carriage, liplicking etc it was obvious she was not a confident strong bitch, her handler had her tightly held at all times another sign that she lacked confidence. I'm not surprised the Dog judge could not accept her as BOB

Why don't you think she was able to work? A big arena can with the crowd could get to many a normally confident dog.

I thought she had a very feminine head  

The term working sheepdog is usually reserved for collies that aren't registered with the KC - my "Border Collie" is on the KC Activity Register and his breed had to be entered  as a working sheepdog due to being a rescue who was an unregistered farm bred collie. He worked sheep and cattle on the farm and is of a similar build to the one in question although with a finer head.

I know BC's that are shown but also hold their own in agility and, of those, some  also work sheep and are of the same type of build as the BC competing for BIS.

Watching a BC or WSD doing the job it was bred for is always a wonderful sight - whatever it's build or breeding

Actually the ISDS register dogs as Working Sheepdog(or Border Collie) not the other way round as correctly Border Collies are from the borderland between Scotland & England

You can register ANY dog as a WSD with the KC activities register it doesn't really mean anything as regards bloodlines or breed. A well known line of KC WSD come from a bitch who was part Labrador. Some alleged KC WSD look nothing like an sheepdog at all.

I have all 3 coat types amongst my dogs & was asked by a well known working trials WSD handler what one of my smooth coated ISDS registered dogs was crossed with !! He comes from borderland bloodlines so I told them with a smile he was a cross between two real Border Collies.

This bitch's head is typical of the kennels & is almost identical to her father's which is hardly feminine.

I was told many years ago that working dogs needed brain room so required quite a broad head, but you should be able to tell dog from bitch at a distance by the head.

A real working dog needs medium bone for maximum use of energy in movement. The heavy bone of the showline "BCs" precludes them from being able to work for full days to maximum extent. Look at the breeds bred for endurance none have heavy bone in proportion to size. The same change in bone has occurred in Bearded Collies a breed developed to drive stock long distances. The original working bearded that were KC registered back in the 1940s look nothing like the show dogs of today, they too have excessive coat although they tend to be much bigger than the working type

Thought she was gorgeous, but sadly looked slightly spooked in the BIS ring at least at first, so we had to take her off our list. We were rooting for the Newfie, he really caught our eye!

JeanSW look on Youtube for the full group judging. :-)

> You can register ANY dog as a WSD with the KC activities register it doesn't really mean anything as regards bloodlines or breed. A well known line of KC WSD come from a bitch who was part Labrador. Some alleged KC WSD look nothing like an sheepdog at all.

It means a fair bit though if you do agility with a dog registered as a WSD

Really ? All it means is you have a dog registered with the KC in order to take part in KC licenced activities, nothing more nothing less.

There is/was a very well known(& successful)breeder who had all ISDS registered foundation dogs, they chose NOT to use the ISDS registrations to KC register their dogs & puppies & always only Activities register the puppies they bred making their dogs KC WSD not BCs. Did you know that you can now full breed register dogs from unknown histories(reinstated many years after it was stopped by the KC)?

I could have registered my ISDS dogs as BCs with the KC they would never win prizes at shows being the wrong colour for example(I have a White & Black) a terrible"breed" fault that doesn't stop a dog from being a brilliant worker whereas having to short legs would.

Not sure why registering a dog as a WSD affects agility, there are lots of XBs doing agility very successfully(the late Pudsey was an Ag Ch I believe & he was a XB)

> Really ? All it means is you have a dog registered with the KC in order to take part in KC licenced activities, nothing more nothing less.

There are often separate classes for BCs/ WSDs and their crosses - and then there can be classes for ABC dogs - Anything But Collies.  With BCs being the most popular breed of dog to compete in agility the ABC classes  exclude them and can only be entered by any  breed that isn't a collie type. Non registered BC type dogs are registered as WSDs on the activity register and would thus not be eligible to enter an ABC class. Hence why it is important to have your dog recorded correctly on the register. There seems to be a fairly even split between registered and non-registered collies in the agility world.

> Not sure why registering a dog as a WSD affects agility, there are lots of XBs doing agility very successfully(the late Pudsey was an Ag Ch I believe & he was a XB)

There are some amazing XBs and amazing ABC dogs who have earnt the title of Agility Champions - it's what I like about agility - any breed or combination of breeds can achieve the highest level of competition. Ashleigh now runs another XBreed, Sully,  who I believe is a chinese crested x poodle x collie and he too is an agility champion and won at Crufts this past week.

It still doesn't mean that a dog IS a certain breed. You cannot register a dog as a BC on the activities register, the KC transferred dogs on the old KCOWTR to the full Breed register only if the dog had proven pedigree going back to ISDS dogs in 1976. BCs are the ONLY breed that this applies to.

> You cannot register a dog as a BC on the activities register,

Which is why BC types are registered as Working Sheep Dogs My Golden Retriever - another rescue but I don't have his KC papers or registered name as the rescue wouldn't let me have them or let me know any details other than he was registered with the KC - is also on the activities register and his breed is registered as Golden Retriever with unknown parents. My terrier cross is registered as a cross breed.

My original response to your post was about using the term WSD and I was pointing out that if you have a dog that resembles a BC then you have to register it on the AR as a WSD if you wish to compete in agility with that dog. I wasn't saying this guarantees they are pure bred or was an ISDS dog that the breeder had chosen not to register with the KC as per the KC rules. My rescue WSD, as I said before, had to be registered as a WSD due to his  appearance and because I know he was a home bred farm dog from home bred working parents and I am an honest person. His physical appearance would support that and if I entered him as anything other than a WSD in an agility competition that would be cheating and would most certainly be queried, and rightly so, if I entered him as an ABC dog.

At the end of the day I am not in the slightest bit bothered about his registration other than in how it validates his eligibility to take part in agility competitions in the correct classes for him His working ability at the job he was bred to do has never been in question

I've seen dogs that look like BC/WSD that are in fact known xb with no sheepdog in their make up, however according to your logic they should be reg as WSD with the KCAR because of their appearance, totally wrong & incorrect. This is the problem with judging dogs on their physical appearance especially if the dogs are used for breeding as some purpose bred WSD are for KC activities. Because of unknown parentage the health testing aspect done correctly would have to cover all breeds. I've seen a BC/Poodle that could pass for a Bearded Collie

There are first cross Golden/WSD(or BC) that bear no resemblance to WSD & have the drive of the sheepdog part of their bloodlines & can easily be passed off as simple mongrels allowing them to compete in ABC classes(& it does happen). There was a lovely GSD/WSD who simply looked like a GSD longcoat. He was a brilliant WT dog & highly successful Obedience dog. He was honestly registered with the KC despite many people thinking he was a GSD including GSD people.

> 've seen dogs that look like BC/WSD that are in fact known xb with no sheepdog in their make up, however according to your logic they should be reg as WSD with the KCAR because of their appearance, totally wrong & incorrect.

It's not my logic but what I was advised to do when I rang the KC to ask them what I should register him as. By your logic maybe I shouldn't have registered my GR as a GR on there either because I don't personally have proof of his parentage - but again the KC told me that was how he should be registered. I have seen papered GR's that look far less like a GR than he does - and crosses that look more GR than some purebred GRs.

Agility requires any first cross with a BC/WSD to not be eligible to compete as an ABC dog so I guess that is down to the honesty of the person who registers them.

> There was a lovely GSD/WSD who simply looked like a GSD longcoat. He was a brilliant WT dog & highly successful Obedience dog. He was honestly registered with the KC despite many people thinking he was a GSD including GSD people.

I didn't realise crossbreeds could compete in Working Trials - I thought it was for KC registered dogs rather than Activity Registered dogs - I have learnt something new

The GSD/Collie cross has produced a remarkable string of champions and ticket winners in Working Trials. Many of these have the word Little forming part of their registered name, and were bred by the same person.

Only breed or conformation competitions are limited to full breed registered dogs, the Activities Register was originally the Obedience & Working Trials register, predating Agility, Flyball, Canicross etc

Unlike the FCI & other foreign registers the KC has for many years encouraged non pedigree dogs taking part in their activities.

Working trials predates Obedience & was originally developed by ASPADS, Association of Sheep, Police & Army Dogs Society who also used to run breed & Obedience shows. You might like to research them, they now only run WTs. There have been many different WT champion breeds & of course the dogs can gain qualifications without having to win trials but gaining a level of points in all exercises to do so. The only this I dislike about WT is the use of the Scale jump & the fact that smaller dogs have to complete the jumps at the same height from WD upwards

> The only this I dislike about WT is the use of the Scale jump & the fact that smaller dogs have to complete the jumps at the same height from WD upwards

I wanted to try diffrent things when I got my first vallhund. I looked at working triles but the idea of a 13inc dog doing a 6ft scale and 9ft long jump seemed too much of a stretch. Flyball is the same under the KC, small dogs must race on full height jumps the same as bigger dogs. Why I prefur the BFA.

Working Trials is reasonably small dog friendly up to WD. I know a 10" Heeler who has his CD Ex, and my veteran Beagles have had no problems with the under 15" heights - the 10 minute out of sight stay scares me far more. Working Trials are great fun, and I would encourage anyone to give at least the Intro stake a try. It is a great feeling to win a stake, but it isn't really the point, as everyone competes to gain points - and the qualification is available to all.

> I didn't realise crossbreeds could compete in Working Trials - I thought it was for KC registered dogs rather than Activity Registered dogs - I have learnt something new

Are you thinking of Field Trials, which are limited to full breed registered gundogs?

To do "Gundog Trials" though the dogs have to be pure bred on breed register.  All other working disciplines apart from Bloodhound Trials are open to any dog.