I'm reading the Book of the Bitch and it has a section about taking a bitch puppy "on breeding terms". Is this actually still done by reputable breeders? The only times I've seen it offered it was by large breeding operations of designer mongrels and it all sounded fairly off to me.

I had a breeder try to spring  this on me 2 days before  I was due to take home a pedigree kitten.  I only wanted a pet & had made that plain from start.  I refused & was refused kitten.  disappointing but no way was I  going to send my pet to live with breeder for months so breeder could get  litter.    I  think it is a v bad idea.  it caused a lot of ill feeling. breeder was furious with me as had clearly counted on money from me buying kitten but I would not take on terms. had it been terms when first saw kitten advertised weeks earlier I would not have gone after her-  she seemed to think springing it on me after weeks of excitment of new kitten would mean I would be unable to resist.  Was not a nice person when turned down . o & for privilage of her using my  pet I would  get to pay top price for purchase of kitten & keep paperwork in her name...

This is  NOT something I'd do.   I had a friend who, years ago and not in the UK, was persuaded to take 2 bitches, on breeding terms, by a fellow breeder who ran a big breeding/show kennel.   She was flattered by this breeder who said 'she didn't do this for everybody'.   What happened is my friend reared the bitch(s) from puppy, had to take her back to the original breeder to use one of their stud dogs, whelped the bitch and reared the puppies and said original breeder swept in, chose what were, in her opinion, the best two puppies, and off she went.   In other words, much as my friend was able to keep the two bitches (and same happened with the other one too) which were of good quality admittedly, she did all the work and the original breeder took the proceeds, doing none of that work.    If I wanted a good potential brood bitch, I bought and paid for her.

Similarly with stud work - I prefered to take a stud fee up front rather than get into a puppy in lieu situation and I'd do the same with outside studs I used.

Sometimes it can work, but equally sometimes it gets 'messy'.

I have done this with my last litter as I am at capacity and refuse to rehome my girls once they've finished breeding. They are my family first and foremost. But I do not want my lines to die out.

My agreement is with two of the bitch owners (6 pups, 5 bitches to choose from), that when they reach 2yrs old and have been health tested (which I will pay for) and are good examples of the breed, I will arrange for cytology and take to a stud of my choice. I will only breed from one of the two unless sods law gets involved.

This bitch will stay at home until 5-6 weeks pregnant and then come to me. I will pay for all vet appointments and added food costs until then. She will stay with me until pups are completely weaned and SHE chooses to have no more to do with them.

Most of my pups stay on as we breed for working purposes but if there are any that are more suited to pet homes, new owners can visit while mum is still with us and then she will be present at collection.

The bitch owner then has a choice of being reimbursed the price they paid for her or a pup. This will depend on litter size but I cover this in my contract.

I must add that both owners have had a dog from us in the past. They were asked for their consent when they showed interest in another pup and I did not take this step lightly. They have paid for their pup upfront  and should I deem neither is suitable then its my loss, not their's.

You have to be able to have trust in both parties or you are doomed for disaster.

Yes it is still done. I've had two bitches on breeding terms. Gave me some wonderful lines without paying. Both bitches never went away to have pups, they were at home with me. There has to be a lot of trust involved,  and everything put into writing. I know some people who fell out over whether a bitch on breeding terms should be bred from or not - one wanted to, the other had concerns over the quality of the bitch.

weimed

Given the huge disappointment I am sure that she was banking on you to find it far too difficult to leave without your chosen kitten.  I have huge respect for you staying strong enough to tell her no.

It can be a good way way for breeders to keep numbers down and help keep some more diversity in the breed (more diffrent dogs being bred from than just a few) HOWEVER it's open to problems, you would have to be very careful as you both need to know where you stand and the breeder must be able to trust the puppy owner will stand by the agreement and prevent accidental litters.

I was considering doing it with my litter if there was a nice girl. I wanted a male and don't have the room to keep a third dog. If I had a nice girl and could have found an owner I felt I could trust I would have offered her on breeding terms. They would have gotten a free puppy, it's health testing payed for by me and all it would cost is her coming back for one litter later on.

Although it seems a good few commercial breeders have picked up on the practice as well.

Some great answers, thank you.

I bought the Book of the Bitch fairly idly. I don't own a bitch after all and with two young dogs am certainly not about to. If I do decide it's something I'd do in the future it would be 5 or more years into the future and after very significant research.

The reason I wondered is that it actually seems like a good way to learn if one has a mentor who would let you have a bitch on breeding terms and allow you be walked through the whole process with her. And would mean the mentor didnt have to put in all the hours and advice ONLY from the goodness of their heart.

But the only time I've encountered it before is one of these huge designer doodle type operations where you pay a reduced cost but still have to pay the rest after a 3rd litter, you get no choice in whether the bitch is bred at all and she goes back to the breeder from mating to weaning. If you dont want breeding terms the bitch is neutered at 10 weeks before you can collect her and if you do she is neutered after her 3rd litter. The whole deal sounded selfish and horrible for both bitch and new owner. Very convenient for the breeder of course.

I am appalled that anyone would spay at ten weeks. Poor little baby.

Apparently it's quite common for shelters in America to spay/neuter before rehoming, as young as 6 weeks for both kittens and puppies.

> Apparently it's quite common for shelters in America to spay/neuter before rehoming,

That's not confined to the USA.   It was happening with bitch puppies in the well-known (not the RSPCA) Shelter I worked for.   Hate it.  The excuse being it's 'not a big surgery'!!   Hum.

I would not sell a puppy on breeding terms.  If I were concerned about keeping my lines going, I would maintain excellent contacts with people who had males from my litters and - if necessary - I would buy in a suitable bitch to be bred to a male from my lines - and keep my lines going that way.  If the owners had not health-tested, I would offer to pay for health-testing for the male if I wanted to use him.

That would be my preferred option, but sadly so many of the pups I have sold over the years the vets have persuaded them to neuter as young as 6 months, so more recently I do stress the negatives and furnish them with this article that gives a balance of pros and cons: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Yes, I share that one too

I bought a GSD bitch on breeding terms many years ago. The breeders were friends of mine. I had just lost my dog who I had competed with in obedience and wasn't really looking for another at the time. This litter was related and one of the pups reacted to me in the same way that her uncle had reacted to me at the same age and I fell in love with her. Unfortunately this was the bitch the breeders wanted to keep. They rang me up a few days later offering her on breeding terms so that they could keep their line going and I could have the pup. Unfortunately her hip score wasn't good enough to breed from so the line ended anyway. It was all done in a friendly manner although documents were signed to avoid any possible disagreements later.

I have been a host to breeding terms girls and have girls out on breeding terms ( I keep something to myself from each litter I breed). So far never had an issue. It is actually veryvery common in Nordics for breeders to keep numbers down at home ( most breeders do not have kennels) but have larger genepool in their hands. Very common for those interesyed in breeding to see what it is anout and learn under experienced breeder. Kennel clubs have forms that must be used for breeding terms contracts.

I will never use this method for a stud again. My bitch only had 2 females and I was keeping one. Not much of a choice.  The stud owner didn't really like the female left, so he asked to switch to a male when the pups were 5 weeks old. The problem was, I had owners making their picks, and I did not think it was fair to take away from them.
In the end it all worked out well, but this is something I will not to again.

I tell my puppy people while there welcome to come see the pups sooner they can't pick which one untill 6 weeks as that's when I make my pick.