Hi, I’m new to Champdogs, so hello everyone and it’s a great forum.
After 22 years of breeding we have produced a puppy with Liver Shunt. The puppy is now 1.5 years and only diagnosed by new owner after routine blood test before spaying.
The puppy did stop growing, but other that that appeared well and happy when she went to her new owner a year ago (Feb 2017).
The dam produced 18 puppies spread across 4 litters, litter 4 was a different sire, litter 4 was the litter the liver shunt occur f.
Have any breeders seen liver shunts produced from either of the same parents more than once? 
Im holding back on the sire.

Your bitches already had 4 litters in the UK you would not be able to register any further puppies from this bitch & TBH if your bitch has not produced a puppy worth breeding from in it's own right in 4 litters, it's doubtful that she will in another litter & for this reason alone I wouldn't breed from her again. Add to this it's believed that in some if not all breeds there is a genetic link believed to exist(Yorkshire Terriers, Irish Wolfhounds, Cocker Spaniels, and Maltese for example)

A responsible breeder would not risk producing e other puppy with this condition.

Has the owner of your puppy been offered a surgical solution?

> if your bitch has not produced a puppy worth breeding from in it's own right in 4 litters, it's doubtful that she will in another litter & for this reason alone I wouldn't breed from her again.

Niether would I - and neither did I !!

Hi Tomee,
many thanks for your reply.
Yes I am perfectly aware of the 4 litter maximum, I actually kept a bitch puppy back who has had two litters of 4 with no problems. A male from a litter is also now an American champion. We didn’t just breed her for breedings sake.
My question is really about the sire of the last litter that produced the liver shunt puppy. (The other 3 litters were not by this sire.
I’ve been breeding for 22 years, first liver shunt. .... is it the sire? I believe it has nothing to do with “combinations”, I just want some opinions about the liver shunt and if it is considered hereditary.
Thank you

Hi MamaBas,
why do you presume I never kept any puppies?

Is this congenital or acquired. How old was the dog when it was diagnosed or showed symptoms?

> why do you presume I never kept any puppies?

With the greatest of respect, why do you presume that's what I thought?   I just said I'd not see any point taking more than 2 litters from one bitch if I didn't get what I wanted from the 2 litters.   If you kept a bitch and a male from her, sounds as if she's given you all you really need so now this has happened, you can retire her?   I'd have to check how liver shunt is inherited (or not) - but you can do that too.

Add -  I found this from a quick search -
"Is a liver shunt hereditary?
Liver shunts are hereditary in Yorkshire terriers, Irish Wolfhounds, Cocker spaniels, and Maltese, and are suspected to be hereditary is several other breeds. Dogs with liver shunts should be castrated or spayed, and the parents of the affected animal should also not be bred.5 Jan 2015"

The mother retired in 2017.
The 4th litter was always going to be her last, but we bred her to a new sire we had imported.
I suppose what I’m really asking is “have any breeders on this forum produced a Liver shunt puppy from the same sire with two separate dams?
I have spoken directly to some top breeders who feel it’s just one of those things, and would try the sire again.
That won’t be happening.

Diagnosed at 17 months

Until there is a diagnostic test for Liver Shunt no dog that has produced 1 offspring with LS should be bred from again, plus any offspring from the dog should be viewed as a possible carrier.

In BCs the ISDS reduced incidence of CEA by removing all bitches that had produced 1 offspring & males with 2 offspring(on the wise grounds that breeders know the dam, but the sire could be another dog) with CEA(pre DNA testing days)this reduced incidence from 20% to less than 0.01% & subsequently DNA testing has confirmed carrier status to less than 0.01%

Those"top"breeders need to do some research before making such a foolish statement. LS is NOT just one of those things

I really think you need to be speaking to a specialist regarding this. Congenital and acquired are 2 different things and congenital shows up in the first year. Aquired can be any time. Can you have a chat with the owners specialist about it and their feelings.
There are tests for it but not sure if that shows genetic markers or just shows whether the dog has it 
I know people in IWH have litters checked and any with LS are pts there and then.

So you have imported a male to use on your own and possibly other people's bitches, I don't think you should use him as he is sire of a liver shunt puppy unless you can prove that it is not hereditary and you are willing to be totally open about what has happened which you seem to be.  Personally as a bitch owner I would not be prepared to use a dog which has produced any genetic issues since there are always dogs who have not got a question mark over them. I do hope you get this sorted out as it must be so disappointing for your breeding programme.

> the parents of the affected animal should also not be bred.5 Jan 2015"

That is the issue, existing offspring, some of whom have been bred from with no issues, should you end a line for a maybe??

Hi Sue, thank you for your reply, it’s congenital.

Yes, I realise these things can skip generations.
We have already made our minds up not to breed from the sire. I was just hoping for something a bit more conclusive. ... information wise really.

What I was trying to say is that as yoru bitch has also produced the puppy should you be terminating the lines fom her offspring.  As we don't know if it si inherited or the mode of inheritance you don't know if yoru bitch line is implicated also.

It's a hard one.

We have in my time had two eye diseases that DNA tests became available for.

the first in 2008 all my girls were clear, in 2015 half of them were carriers of the second issue, even though in 8 generations I have not produced an affected puppy of either disease.

We can never know if and what bad genes are carried by our dogs, and every generation with another mix of genes you may get something you didn't have or even get.

Until you know for sure the heredity, damning the offspring of the parents that are healthy may be short sighted, (throwing the baby out with the bath water) but extra care will need to be taken when researching the background of future mates.

> Until you know for sure the heredity, damning the offspring of the parents that are healthy may be short sighted, (throwing the baby out with the bath water) but extra care will need to be taken when researching the background of future mates.

Very true.   Do you know whether the two lines that produced this litter have been put together before?   Could be that both parents could be carrier (which would produce 25% clear, 50% carrier and 25% affected  - Mendels Theory) but up to now, your 'maybe' carrier bitch happened to be mated to a clear male (clear to carrier would produce 50% clear and 50% carrier).     Obviously your bitch would be retired now in any case, but her offspring could be carrier, so care has to be taken to make sure who she is mated to, isn't also carrier?    Assuming this shunt wasn't 'acquired'.

I know it's hard to have to change directions, or even end a line (which I did when I later discovered an outside dog I'd used developed epilepsy after I'd used him, and did his mother).   But in my case, and none of the puppies from that mating developed epilepsy, I decided the buck had to stop somewhere - and yes, ep. does jump generations.   I guess it boils down to how would you feel if others started getting liver shunt in the future?

Getting the unexpected often happens with an outcross mating.   You can get wonderful - but also something far from that.   The challenge of breeding, however many tests are available.

Eye conditions are not life threatening, Liver Shunt is. Sorry but like TNS & CL in Border Collies which are both life threatening ending lines in which LS occurs is the ONLY way to restrict the occurrence & spread of the condition until it's DNA status is defined. Truly responsible breeders will make this hard decision for the welfare if their breed & the dogs of the future. It worked for Border Collies & no breeder can consider themselves truly responsible for not taking this hard step.

I’m already on 3rd generation puppies/dogs from the dam’s first two litters, all is fine.
I’ve read that it only takes one gene, not two. I guess this is the information I’m seeking clarity on.
There were 5 puppies in the litter with the shunt puppy, luckily non of the pups went to breeding homes.
I’m also very aware of genetic disorders skipping a generation, I sadly had to end a very beautiful line because of that.
What I have learned (although I wish I hadn’t) is that A bile acid test will be required before I introduce any further dogs:Bitches into my programme. ..... that will prove very difficult I imagine

There is no way on God’s earth that I would ever want to produce another liver shunt puppy and all the heartache and suffering that goes with it..... knowingly... with the knowledge I already have. 
I took advice on another line that had a genetic fault from a top breeder, I sadly followed that advice, didn’t breed too close and suffered the consequences when the disorder skipped a generation and reared it’s ugly head further down the line.
Never again! All sterilised and castrated!

> Truly responsible breeders will make this hard decision for the welfare if their breed & the dogs of the future. It worked for Border Collies & no breeder can consider themselves truly responsible for not taking this hard step.

That is responsible, but here we don't know mode of inheritance, but as so often the mode is recessive, both sides of the parentage have to be suspect.  It is the late diagnosis that makes things unclear, as you say normally it is life threatening and pups don't live long unless they have surgery and even then results are often poor.

The pup may have a case of acquired shunt, rather than a hereditary issue. Difficult, as your talking of removing two generations that have bred on here.

Did the KC not advise breed clubs a few years back to have a nominated Geneticist adviser.  Think the breed club needs to get some solid advise.

> Did the KC not advise breed clubs a few years back to have a nominated Geneticist adviser.  Think the breed club needs to get some solid advise.

I think they did advise anybody intending to do a half brother / half sister mating to take the advice of a knowledgeable peer but I don't know about a breed club 'nominated Geneticist adviser'.

This was before the ban on closer mattings and MYKC and the health results tools.  I know Bruce Cattanagh was the one for our breed.

Giardiasis was masking the symptoms apparently , they were treating the that. They did a pre-op blood analysis and the ammonia levels were way off. The kidneys are calcifying, so vet agrees pup was born with shunt... although he is surprised her symptoms were mild.

" ......they did advise anybody intending to do a half brother / half sister mating to take the advice of a knowledgeable peer"

I have been known to be wrong but the KC advised this for the registration of a litter from half brother/half sister matings, which wasn't banned.   The ban was (Is?) for the registration of puppies from father to daughter, mother to son and sibling to sibling with the extension that the above, half brother to half sister, be done with the advice first, of an experienced peer.   Of course that may ALL be changed now

The breeder of my current hound took back a very sick youngster she'd bred (another litter, different parents to mine) who suffered liver shunt.   Despite all her efforts, with her vet, sadly the only option was to put the lad down, to end suffering.  I can't think (but can't be sure!) she knew the puppy was in trouble when she sold him however.

Imported?