German Shepherds in the early days were far more like wolves (unexaggerated) and it would have been better for the breed had they stayed that way (more like wolves). Thousands of years of evoluation has produced these superior animals, to run through many miles (even in deep snow) to hunt. Nature would weed out weak back legs who's hocks knock together, who's legs don't even land on their pads, landing instead on the back of their hocks, so over angulated that their feet can't even clear the floor with them scraping their toes as the walk/trot etc.

Some so-called experts print diagrams in books etc showing German Shepherds with ridiculously high withers and a back that looks like a banana on a 45 degree angle and back legs that look like they belong to a rabbit.

Even the banana look on a 45 degree angle know appears to have a curve that has a sudden break in it (yet another obvious weakness).

Countless people outside the show-ring appear to be able to clearly see that this is extremely detrimental for the breed, to be fair there are some good breeders within the show-ring who prefer a more level back with less angulation etc (unexaggerated) yet they very rarely win with their dogs unfortunately.

People choose to post on here because they care about dogs in general (its painful for any animal lover to watch the way some of these German Shepherds move).

Here are 2 very short video clips (The Show-ring mover based on mans theory) and the WOLF shaped by thousands of years of evolution (100% free from any exaggeration whatsoever and a pleasure to watch).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnE8EkevHnc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZneSCxsvuY4

Oh dear you know nothing about the evolution of the domestic dog & the separate(totally)evolution of the Wild Wolf(as opposed to domestically bred captive wolf packs, even some so called wild packs were artificially placed in reserves etc to put back wolves in areas where they have been hunted to extinction-interestingly something the US has failed to do to wild Coyotes a close relative of the wolf)

I will never defend physically unhealthy dogs(unlike some who defend breeding from non health tested dogs or dogs with poor test results)however just because you don't like the way a dog looks doesn't mean the dog is defective. The show dogs( of any breed)are not natural they are the result of fashion & fancy, Your beloved Klodo does NOT resemble a wolf & you cannot tell how he moved or was really constructed from a touched up old photograph.

Your reliance on video clips gleaned from the internet to proves nothing. Find some clips of the early dogs moving from ALL angles to show how perfect & fit for function they were & you will have a start of your proof.

BTW HD does exist in real wild canids, however their shorter lifespan & leaner body condition masks it's existence.

To play devils advocate. I wouldn’t have either, the left ones are badly put together in general, look weird. And I dislike the German type of shepherd. The SV have a very different breed standard to the KC, as you can tell by the very sloping outline they have as their logo. The KC calls for a slight slope, so I judges bred to standard we wouldn’t have Many of the terrible examples that we do.
I own what I consider to be a very moderate dog, she has a slight slope when stacked, but stands level when 4 square. But no roached back. Would trot all day long. 
As it happens we do show at KC shows and have done well under all rounder judges, with plenty of positive feedback about her conformation. I think that if he KC wishes to make a real difference to the perception of the breed they need to make sure judges are judging to KC standard. Where some are definately not.

So you have a bitch who does well at shows despite having a"suspicion"of strangers that has recently developed. She is not of the English Alsatian type & not of the German type from your posts.

You think that the English & German standards are different(they are not, but the German standard is in far more detail than the rather vague English one)

Perhaps if ALL dogs had to perform the work they were developed to do, then types of ALL dogs would be far more standardised. I personally would require ALL pastoral breeds to have to pass a basis working test BEFORE being shown &/or bred from.

Also I would require a breed survey pass & FULL health testing for ALL show/breeding dogs.

This would fairly quickly sort some of the wheat from the chaff.

For example the(to my eyes)deformed show Basset Hounds could never hunt nor follow a drag trail for any length of time, in fact most would find any lengthy walk(especially over undulating terrain) due to the excessive shortness of legs & length of coupling

That was actually solved, and she is now a very confident dog in the ring, so she is not suspicious, and was actually a failing of mine. Not hers. You obviously have your opinion( of which I am actually not sure apart from anti KC). They are different if you read them, the KC calls for a slight straight slope and the Seiger calls for “curves”
Either way, no she is not of “ Alsatian” type nor “ German” type she is in the middle, she has a slope, but a genuinely straight slope not curved up nor down. I ( and others) find her very pleasing to the eye. I actually find I am frequently having to defend my breed against people ( showing and not showing) who think they are all half frogs incapable of a days work, and the people who I have found the most friendly in the show scene are actually the “ Alsatian” owners, I’ve never been looked down on as much by anybody as when I attempted to be friendly with “ German” owners!
I agree that form follows function, but I highly doubt many of the “ show line Germans”  would genuinely stand up to a long life of full work - or else why do the “ working lines” look so different? This is probably the closest image I could find of how my bitch looks-https://goo.gl/images/mgXxSM
Compared to a typical “ German” - https://goo.gl/images/MXVJdU

I am not anti KC after all they are just a registry that runs dog shows. They are NOT responsible for the fads & fancies of dog breeders & exhibitors. Unlike the SV they cannot refuse to register dogs from ratings they do not approve of, they have no powers to inspect litters before registration nor to insist on compulsory health testing & working assessments unless ALL breed clubs for the breed concerned are in agreement(as per the Irish Setter clubs)

Judges have individual interpretations of the breed standard hence the Coffee table type are to some just as correct as the continental type to others. Interestingly one of the Top All Rounder judges, the late Bobby James went from giving a Crufts Group to an Alsatian type to putting up the German type & insisting the dog did more than once up & down & once round the ring. He never placed a dog he could not handle without the handler having to tightly string up & stack for individual examination there after. He realised that the coffee table type were not correct.

I've never shown my dogs as they would be disregarded because they don't have the long chocolate box coats & pretty markings, however this does not preclude them from being able to work.

Which Breed standard is correct then ? The country of origin or the UK ? According to the KC they based their somewhat ambiguous standard on that of the country of origin. For example the number of teeth(ie a full set)is only desirable in the UK which is why dogs with multiple missing teeth can still win & become champions!!!!!! & be used in breeding passing on the fault.

Well I would say that each registry has its own. After all, the Americans also have their (even more diabolical IMHO) ways of showing and breeding shepherds. After all, the Gsd is one of the few breeds who dogs are so vastly different in types found in the show ring! Perhaps the SV needs a greater presence in KC shows, a class for SV reg dogs? Leaving the KC GSD classes for the “ Alsatian” people? As this basically happens anyway- look at the judge and then decide if you enter! I don’t think anything major will change, I know that I dislike extremes of either, the dippy back “ Alsatian” is just as bad to me as the “ German” banana back, my personal preference is for a nice solid working line appearance.
As a rule, I think working dogs should work, and do working titles, and showing dogs, although should be perfectly capable of working, should have more emphasis on conformation. Obviously a show dog who also has working titles is the ideal! I could equally argue that a working dog who cannot do well in a show should not be bred from either, as there are some outstanding working dogs who do not fit the standard.
But then what would propose the test be for such a versatile breed? It’s original purpose of herding? Or it’s more modern uses in police work and IPO?

Dogs shown under SV rules have to have a working qualification minimum VPG1 or HGH depending on whether the handler does sports or herding. There are also lower qualifications, a bit like KCGC,
BH(BEGLEITHUND) all dogs must pass this BEFORE doing VPG.

I would love to see a start with BH

I was aware the SV required working titles.
The BH sounds a lot like the KCGC, also known as “ stuff every dog should know” I would hope most dogs in the ring, maybe not all the toy breeds, would be capable of this! The issue with BH is it says 15 months is the youngest- whereas you can show in the KC from 6 months.
I am not sure it’d be realistic to introduce it across the board, thought there are KCGC classes.

> As a rule, I think working dogs should work, and do working titles, and showing dogs, although should be perfectly capable of working, should have more emphasis on conformation. Obviously a show dog who also has working titles is the ideal! I could equally argue that a working dog who cannot do well in a show should not be bred from either, as there are some outstanding working dogs who do not fit the standard.

This is the situation for my breed in Scandinavia.

Of course hunting here is not legal, but dogs some generations removed from hunting bred here have done well hunting in Scandinavia.

Probably as we are such a numerically small breed in the UK, and have to import regularly the hunting instinct is unlikely to die, out, after all it is very much part of the canine.

I have travelled to Finland to use a hunting and show champion dogma and also to the USA to use the son of another.

I feel as a breed as a result of the Scandinavian approach the breed has changed very little over the last 100 years

There are toy breeds that have passed the BH & a there's a video somewhere of a small terrier doing VPG successfully. In the protection phases it is not necessary for the Dog to be strong enough to detain the assistant just to show commitment & drive. There are BCs doing VPG & IPO on the continent & gaining level 3 in both.

There is of course the AD test for soundness & fitness this would be a good test for show dogs of many breeds I wonder how many of the "vunerable" & dwarfed breeds could successfully compete this successfully despite managing so called organised walks(having seen videos more like gentle ambles than a brisk lengthy walk) it would silence a lot of critism about showline GSDs being cripples although I don't think the coffee table dogs would be able to pass

Oh absolutely there’s no reason toy breeds could not compete at IPO, I saw a video of a french bulldog doing it! But if we are going at “ fit for purpose” the purpose of many a toy breed is as a lapdog? They are not required to be especially fit nor althetic.
A breed appropriate test would not go far wrong for the breeds which have come from a working origin, BC at herding, or greyhounds at coursing, corgis with cattle for example rather than a test which is supposed to test a drive which not all breeds of dog possess.
A fitness test would be a better idea for the groups which require a standard of soundness and fitness- working, pastoral, hound, terrier, gundog. I know my girl could complete that test tommorow, I also know a few show dogs which would struggle to do half of that because they’re rather portly! It would also encourage the bracy breeds to make sure the dogs can actually breathe, though perhaps for little legs maybe a slower pace.

"Completion of a distance of 20 km [12.4 miles] at a pace of 12 to 15 km/hour [7.4 to 9.3 miles per hour]."

I think the human here would be the problem, my oldest did an 11 1/2 mile sponsored walk at 13 1/2 with the rest of my guys in 3 hours 15 minutes along the Bristol to Bath cycleway (old railway line). At 14 1/2 she is still doing a brisk 2 miles each day as did her mother until the day before she died at 15 and 5 months.

Would you expect al breeds to do that test with a bicycle?

Dogs are trained using a bike, the cyclist doesn't have to be the owner & dogs are only tested up to 7 years of age.

If it was required over here I'm sure handlers could be found to help owners, it happens on the continent quite a lot

Depending on the breed the parameters are quite generous & the dog's welfare is paramount

>Oh absolutely there’s no reason toy breeds could not compete at IPO, I saw a video of a french bulldog doing it! But if we are going at “ fit for purpose” the purpose of many a toy breed is as a lapdog? They are not required to be especially fit nor althetic.

Definitely! I'm very proud that my toy dogs are fit and athletic and can do good long walks, and compete in agility / rally etc. But it does make me giggle about 'fit for purpose' - a breed specific test for mine would be perhaps to see if they could lie on my lap on the sofa for 2 hours at a time, which they would excel at!

Except that many"lapdogs"originally had a function. For example The Royal/Blenheim spaniels(now the two types of King Charles spaniel)were used to hunt Woodcock & were described as Cockers because of this & were carried by Royals & Aristocracy's men at arms when out hunting & used to flush the birds. They were also Lady's companion dogs & frequently reduced the vermin with the palaces, castles etc as well as attracting fleas etc away from the humans. The ladies dogs were the Blenheim type(from the Churchill Palace estate)

"my oldest did an 11 1/2 mile sponsored walk at 13 1/2 with the rest of my guys in 3 hours 15 minutes along the Bristol to Bath cycleway (old railway line). At 14 1/2 she is still doing a brisk 2 miles each day as did her mother until the day before she died at 15 and 5 months".

Sounds good to me Barbara (always a pleasure to read about dogs living to a good old age & being able to walk a good distance).

Tommee, have a look at the difference in these Germen Shepherds moving compared to some of today's show winner's.

They have more length to their leg, less angulation in both front & rear and a true top-line (more level back).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QCjcfkAVk

Why do people post poor quality video links that fail to clearly show long coupled dogs with toplines that are"straight"behind a dip directly behind the withers whose toplines FLEX in movement because they have too short backs & too long coupling & claim these show level toppings in MOVEMENT.  This is a fault that means the dogs have to expend extra energy in movement.

Especially America dogs who have always been too long coupled. This fault is now seen in certain lines in Bearded Collies, who trace back to a dog overused at stud & who now appears multiple times in show dogs pedigrees, in fact like certain "Alsatian"types who have 100s of lines going back to "their"wonder dog, Avon Prince of Alumvale, a very short ribbed long coupled dog behind so many epileptics around today.

Insisting in a fitness test like the AD test weeds out these long coupled soft backed dogs because they fail do to the excess energy expended in movement.

Don't forget dogs should(most breeds)have a level topline/backline in MOVEMENT to be able to move efficiently using the least energy necessary. There are exceptions like the Spinone, Borzoi(although actually hunting types are less roached), Bedlington etc

Tommee, the dog in this link is the one who's 'wasting energy' in my opinion.

Be interesting to hear/read your thoughts on this one ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A

Surely over reaching like that is inefficient, as the dog has to move legs out of the way to avoid hitting them.

100% agree with you Barbara.

Why have you chosen a video showing the"flying" or fast gait ??? The least efficient of all speeds. Shepherding is done at the trot not speed. If you know anything about horses it is the equivalent to the speed between the walk & the gallop & known as the rising trot the most efficient & comfortable for rider & horse. You still haven't posted an Alsatian shepherding to show how perfect the level in stance dogs are in motion can't you find one ??? Perhaps you can film & post YOUR dog doing this ??

Most dogs are wider at the hips than forequarters, so the back paws are naturally out of line with the front ones. No need for the dog to consciously do anything in movement. The video is NOT of a HGH/VPG dog but a showline dog

I bet we probably agree that the show line Germanic dogs are exaggerated, have you pics/video of the working dogs that your speaking of?

> so the back paws are naturally out of line with the front ones.

That will depend on the speed of movement though...

I have no need to have videos of HGH dogs as I experience of seeing these dogs shepherding "in the flesh" it is others who claim that shepherding dogs need to have a level topline/backline in stance in order to work, they are the ones who need to produce the evidence. They cannot of course as there are NO Alsatian types that can shepherd stock because they have neither the construction nor the ability/character to trot for hours preventing the stock from straying from the pasture the(human) Shepherd wants them kept in.

I have always been impressed by the Stammherde Ramholz dogs

I presume you do not consider the Alsatian type to exaggerated in anyway despite failing to be of the correct body proportions, character & fitness to shepherd stock.

> I presume you do not consider the Alsatian type to exaggerated in anyway despite failing to be of the correct body proportions, character & fitness to shepherd stock.

No I do not think the low and long dogs are correct, or the great heavy ones.

As with a lot of breeds with a divide, like Working Labs, etc I believe the truth is in the middle, that both extremes are incorrect.

Tommee, I get the impression that you have plenty of knowledge of The German Shepherd as a breed and that's what makes debating on here with you & the other posters on here so enjoyable, I don't know everything (I am very humble) I always find on here that there is always more to learn.

All I am attempting to point out in my posts on this topic is that I don't believe a beautiful breed like The German Shepherd needs any exaggeration whatsoever.

The 2 links you kindly posted are nice looking examples of the breed in my opinion, its just the extremely exaggerated Type's only (like we occasionally see in the show-ring) are the very one's I don't agree with.

We all have our own personal preferences within the breed in regards to TYPE and providing their all good & healthy and can do the job they were bred to do efficiently etc etc, then each to their own (all good).